Curse

Sword Hammer Axe · Jun 20, 2009, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

It's because of my writing background that I'm aware of what does and doesn't need to be explained and those areas are very seldom in question.

Minor plot points need less explanation but the less plausible something is, the more it needs to be explained.

For example if a guy in a book doesn't know what time it is and he passes an electronics store window in which a tv is playing, it's reasonable that he might know what show is playing, and thus, be able to deduce the time from it. No explanation is needed.

However, if the guy is blind, then he wouldn't see the televisions and you'd have to explain, as the writer, how he figured out the time. This isn't magic, it's common sense.

There are many many areas, routine quests you take and such in Factions, that put your own allies as the enemy. It's not a random happenstance, it's a major plot point and as such, requires an explanation.

Just remember, the whole reason, from a roleplaying game that you're doing something, is because it's important. In Prophecies, it's important to fight the charr, cause they destroyed your homeland. It's important to get to Kryta, because King Adelburn isn't realistic about the charr threat and you've seen what the charr can do first hand.

In the Shiverpeaks, we're motivated to face the stone summit, to get through to kryta, and safety. In Kryta we have to deal with the White Mantle, so they'll let us into LA and we can settle there. The storyline provides the motivation.

In factions, the plague and trying to find out about it propels us to the mainlands and beyond, until we learn that Shiro the Betrayer has returned. The historical scenes are interesting, but technically not really necessary, because though I've seen them, my character hasn't. My character doesn't sit at my computer desk.

Now, if you are in, or have a guild that is allied to the Luxons, you are a Luxon yourself, or you're their ally. But the Factions story line insists you help the Kurzicks, who in theory would be your enemy. In fact, you have to get the Kurzicks to trust you, so you can unite the factions to fight Shiro.

The issue only exists, if you are Luxon, because guild alliance is accountwide. Whatever character I create is part of a Luxon Guild. No way around it. So that means when they get to the point in the story line when they have to kill their own allies, they aren't going to be happy. And I have never been convinced I wanted to. I've never wanted to fight Luxons, because I am one, or at least allied to the Luxons. I should never have to.

But if the game is going to insist that I do have to, that is not a credible point, without it being excused. Remember, in a book or story, the less plausible a point, the more it requires attention from the author. Anything else is just bad writing.

Fiction doesn't have to be realistic, to be successful, but it has to remain plausible, or the reader will simply be turned off. Not every reader mind you, but the ones who get most involved.

There are exceptions to this, such as comedy. You can get away more, if you're not taking yourself seriously. But in anything dramatic, characters need to have internal logic and they need to follow that internal logic or a percentage of readers will be disturbed.

And believe me, as a writer, the last thing you want to do is betray your readership.

"Kafka on the Shore" by Murakami Haruki. In that book one of the major characters is "The boy called Crow". That character always tell the main character about what's happening around him and why he does what he does. He can change himself into the shape of a crow and knows everything about the main character and the main characters past. He could be a product of the main characters mind of course, but then he wouldn't be able to peck out the eyes of a man with a whistle that catches souls later on in the book. It's all a major plot in the book. But we don't get any explanation about who Crow is or what he represents nor how he knows everything about the main character and why he tries to help him.

You could say it's a flaw in the book, yet the book became an international hit.

You are right: You don't want to betray your readers, but really sometimes you actually betray the readers by telling them why this and that happens.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 20, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

"Kafka on the Shore" by Murakami Haruki. In that book one of the major characters is "The boy called Crow". That character always tell the main character about what's happening around him and why he does what he does. He can change himself into the shape of a crow and knows everything about the main character and the main characters past. He could be a product of the main characters mind of course, but then he wouldn't be able to peck out the eyes of a man with a whistle that catches souls later on in the book. It's all a major plot in the book. But we don't get any explanation about who Crow is or what he represents nor how he knows everything about the main character and why he tries to help him.

You could say it's a flaw in the book, yet the book became an international hit.

You are right: You don't want to betray your readers, but really sometimes you actually betray the readers by telling them why this and that happens.

Actually, a good writer can break any rule intentionally, but pointing to exceptions made by good writers intentionally or perhaps instinctively, doesn't help your argument.

The fact is by introducing the idea of Factions and alliance, GW opened a veritable Pandora's box. There is nothing to make the plot stronger by not addressing the idea that a roleplaying character needs motivation to attack his own people.

I can think of rules that break almost every "rule" of writing, but so what? It's not relevant to a game that isn't deliberately a literary work. All games have stories and storylines. What works in literature, may not, however, work in a game storyline, unless it's done by a very astute writer.

One of the cool things I like is how the characters in cut scenes get out of using gender so it doesn't matter who they're talking to.

Good work, Commander.

Good work all around, Dunkoro.

Intentionally selected to avoid referring to gender. GW was brilliant with how that was done.

I hope, in GW2 they pay attention to details like that.

draxynnic · Jun 20, 2009, 02:20 PM // 14:20

In that book, however, you describe a character that is intended to be mysterious. You're left with a sense of wonder and speculation of just what was happening.

The Rinkhal moniter thing, however, is just the character going off to kill a specific type of dangerous creature in a swamp full of dangerous creatures, endangering an important espionage mission by potentially breaking cover in the meanwhile. That's not a mystery, it's a plothole. All it leaves is a sense of "WTF?"... and not the good kind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roupe

With the end. It felt like the whole ordeal from the Crystal desert and on, wasted the heroes time. Sure the Mursat & White Mantel leaders got killed, but the underlying motivation as to why the heroes followed the Vizier was not resolved.

The Vizier represented the best hope left to fight the Mantle. Somehow, our characters didn't realise that the same Vizier of Orr who caused the Cataclysm might possibly be a shady character somehow associated with the undead created in said Cataclysm, even when he demonstrates control over them in the first meeting. I've always rationalised that as the Vizier's role in the Cataclysm not actually becoming well known until after Nightfall (who's going to spread the word?)

Quote:

Eotn, still shows that the White Mantle is in power. and active Mursats.

One active Mursaat, who had to go through pretty extreme measures to survive.

As for the Mursaat... between Sanctum Cay and EOTN, the White Mantle went from having just crushed their human opposition to being reduced to being fought on equal footing by a bunch of rag-tag rebels allied what had, in the heyday of the White Mantle, been basically a glorified police force (the Lionguard). The White Mantle and the Mursaat were broken at the Ring of Fire, what you see in EOTN is the remnants trying to regain control. Furthermore, Livia's talk of "factions and subfactions" suggests that the unity of the White Mantle has probably been broken - implying that everyone 'in the succession' was taken out and that what was left was warlords trying to seize their own power.

Roupe · Jun 20, 2009, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

The Vizier represented the best hope left to fight the Mantle.

yes, and my point is that the Heroes decided to fight the mantle. And realizing that the ordeal was almost a waste of time for that objective. The Heroes should resume in their pursuit of secure the safety of the Ascalonians and the Shining Blade.

Meaning rooting up the White Mantle and the Mursaat or moving the Ascalonians up into the Shiverpeaks.

Quote:

Furthermore, Livia's talk of "factions and subfactions" suggests that the unity of the White Mantle has probably been broken - implying that everyone 'in the succession' was taken out and that what was left was warlords trying to seize their own power.

Which still means the Heroes haven't successfully cleaned the mess up.

My rationalisation is that having been allied to the Vizir, their Hero image is ruined in Lions Arch & Kryta. That keeps them from cleaning up the mess there, Either they are seen as part of the undead menace, as rebels or as the people leading the Ascalonians into the White Mantle lands and then causing diplomatic mess, prosecutions & Civil war.

Sword Hammer Axe · Jun 20, 2009, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

Actually, a good writer can break any rule intentionally, but pointing to exceptions made by good writers intentionally or perhaps instinctively, doesn't help your argument.

The fact is by introducing the idea of Factions and alliance, GW opened a veritable Pandora's box. There is nothing to make the plot stronger by not addressing the idea that a roleplaying character needs motivation to attack his own people.

I can think of rules that break almost every "rule" of writing, but so what? It's not relevant to a game that isn't deliberately a literary work. All games have stories and storylines. What works in literature, may not, however, work in a game storyline, unless it's done by a very astute writer.

One of the cool things I like is how the characters in cut scenes get out of using gender so it doesn't matter who they're talking to.

Good work, Commander.

Good work all around, Dunkoro.

Intentionally selected to avoid referring to gender. GW was brilliant with how that was done.

I hope, in GW2 they pay attention to details like that.

Gender: Couldn't agree more.

But when you say what works in literature may not work in a game: Then why did you point out your own authority as an author and started speaking of rules of writing in the first place?

And when you say your own people: You are not Luxon. You are either a Canthan or a foreigner who is trying to bring these two factions together so that you together can fight Shiro Tagachi.

Besides even if they were your own people it's not like 1 faction is a complete unity anyways. History can even prove that. Like during the American Civil War where there were comparable two factions the North and the South. While the south agreed that the north was there primary enemy, they didn't agree on how to approach things such as battle strategies or negotiations. Like how when General Lee forfeited there were a lot of subfactions who kept on fighting even though the war was over.

Roupe · Jun 20, 2009, 04:41 PM // 16:41

here is a A remedy about the faction alliance player fighting same faction foes, or faction hostile chacters fighting along side.

NPC skill
that targets the player and reveal information. instead of the name it would check the faction score and state accordingly.

if the player has friendly faction -but is a foe - "traitor", "we trusted you"
if the player has hostile faction -and is a foe -"faction scum"
if the player has friendly faction -and is a ally -"Good work", "can i have you autograph"
if the player has hostile faction -and is a ally -"earn our trust", "I still dislike you"

draxynnic · Jun 21, 2009, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roupe

yes, and my point is that the Heroes decided to fight the mantle. And realizing that the ordeal was almost a waste of time for that objective. The Heroes should resume in their pursuit of secure the safety of the Ascalonians and the Shining Blade.

Meaning rooting up the White Mantle and the Mursaat or moving the Ascalonians up into the Shiverpeaks.

The ordeal was in order to claim the Gift of True Sight. What that does isn't actually stated, but the heroes are at least lead to believe that it's necessary to fight the Unseen on anything like equal terms (along with Infusion, as it turns out). Since it was the Vizier who wanted the characters to Ascend in the first place, it's likely that it does fit into his plans somehow, and either way, he was able to persuade the characters that it was necessary. Not a plothole.

One tangible result, however, is that it gets the characters in contact with Glint, who in turn informs the Seers so they can get in contact with the Seers so the characters can be infused. Possibly an unintended result from the Vizier's perspective... but perhaps he just knew from the Prophecies that his patsies would have to Ascend before they could be useful to him without knowing the exact reason why.

Quote:

Which still means the Heroes haven't successfully cleaned the mess up.

Have you considered that the mess might just be too big?

The Heroes are a small group of individuals - skilled and powerful ones, yes, but there doesn't seem to be a shortage of fighters around level 20 on either side. However, they've made it so the mess can be cleaned up, when before the task looked virtually impossible.

Carrying the mess analogy further, imagine a blocked drain causing a pool of water to become stagnant. The heroes have done the equivalent of unblocking the drain, but there's still a lot of scrubbing to be done to get rid of all the slime on the edges. But without that unblocking, cleaning the pool would be much harder if it was possible at all.

fleurbeur · Jun 21, 2009, 10:43 PM // 22:43

I hope you're not expecting any real action to be taken at this problem.

draxynnic · Jun 22, 2009, 02:16 AM // 02:16

In GW1, as you may realise from reading the thread: No.

The hope is that it will be considered for GW2, which they are currently in the process of making.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 23, 2009, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

Gender: Couldn't agree more.

But when you say what works in literature may not work in a game: Then why did you point out your own authority as an author and started speaking of rules of writing in the first place?

Because games do have storylines, though they are not stories and the story line is important to the game.

I bring up my own credentials because I want to point out, I have experience that allows me to discern what is important to fix and what might not be. I'm not just a writer, but a writing mentor and an editor as well. My view of this problem is from a more or less professional standpoint. I'd suggest this to any writer who's book I was in the process of editing.

The fact that a game is not usually authored by a talented writer and serves a different purpose than a story or book, does not change that fact that is would be a better product if it remained plausible, didn't pull roleplayers out of the game, and didn't ask you to do things you aren't motivated to do, without explaining why.

If motivation of your character wasn't important, there wouldn't BE storylines in games. Even arcade games have them. Castlevania is an arcade game, but still has a story. Why does a jumping fighting game need a story? Because it gives you a reason for being there, and a reason to enjoy the game more.

That doesn't mean that the guy who wrote the story for Castlevania is a great author who can take write whatever he wants, assuming that it doesn't matter. It matters or they wouldn't do it in the first place.

If a great author, a Harlan Ellison, Roger Zelazny, JRR Tolkien or whoever were writing it, and decided to take a risk, that's very very different than an unintentional omission that could easily be corrected.

Because of my profressional background, I'm in a position to point it out. That's all. I'm not saying I'm a world-class author. I'm saying as an author and editor, this character motivation doesn't work. Again, if it weren't important to motivate a character, why put any time/effort/work into it at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

And when you say your own people: You are not Luxon. You are either a Canthan or a foreigner who is trying to bring these two factions together so that you together can fight Shiro Tagachi.

You're the second person who said I am not a Luxon. How do you know that? What makes you say it. Where is the proof, in game, of what you say.

It's already been pointed out on this thread that Luxons and Kurzicks and even Foreigners (such as Menhlo) have come to study at Shing Jea. If that's the case, why can't I be a Luxon and how do you know I'm not.

Part of roleplayiong is creating a storyline for your character. A background that precedes the game. This is best done by not contradicting the game. Like I couldn't create a character and say I'm the Emperor of Cantha, because I'm not. That's factual in the game.

But there ARE Luxons and Kurzicks, at least two we know of, in Shing Jea, so creating myself as one doesn't contradict the game at all.

And, as I said, I'm already in a Luxon guild, even if I weren't a luxon myself, I know, because I can go to the guild hall. I have luxon skills. My guild has luxon faction. That means, whether or not I am luxon (each character can be different), I am allied to the luxon EITHER WAY.

As I wouldn't kill my own, I wouldn't want to kill my allies either. Actually, I think you're just arguing to argue. Most of this has already been pointed out.

Unless I have something new to say, I won't be adding to this thread.

Sword Hammer Axe · Jun 23, 2009, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

Because games do have storylines, though they are not stories and the story line is important to the game.

I bring up my own credentials because I want to point out, I have experience that allows me to discern what is important to fix and what might not be. I'm not just a writer, but a writing mentor and an editor as well. My view of this problem is from a more or less professional standpoint. I'd suggest this to any writer who's book I was in the process of editing.

The fact that a game is not usually authored by a talented writer and serves a different purpose than a story or book, does not change that fact that is would be a better product if it remained plausible, didn't pull roleplayers out of the game, and didn't ask you to do things you aren't motivated to do, without explaining why.

If motivation of your character wasn't important, there wouldn't BE storylines in games. Even arcade games have them. Castlevania is an arcade game, but still has a story. Why does a jumping fighting game need a story? Because it gives you a reason for being there, and a reason to enjoy the game more.

That doesn't mean that the guy who wrote the story for Castlevania is a great author who can take write whatever he wants, assuming that it doesn't matter. It matters or they wouldn't do it in the first place.

If a great author, a Harlan Ellison, Roger Zelazny, JRR Tolkien or whoever were writing it, and decided to take a risk, that's very very different than an unintentional omission that could easily be corrected.

Because of my profressional background, I'm in a position to point it out. That's all. I'm not saying I'm a world-class author. I'm saying as an author and editor, this character motivation doesn't work. Again, if it weren't important to motivate a character, why put any time/effort/work into it at all.

You're the second person who said I am not a Luxon. How do you know that? What makes you say it. Where is the proof, in game, of what you say.

It's already been pointed out on this thread that Luxons and Kurzicks and even Foreigners (such as Menhlo) have come to study at Shing Jea. If that's the case, why can't I be a Luxon and how do you know I'm not.

Part of roleplayiong is creating a storyline for your character. A background that precedes the game. This is best done by not contradicting the game. Like I couldn't create a character and say I'm the Emperor of Cantha, because I'm not. That's factual in the game.

But there ARE Luxons and Kurzicks, at least two we know of, in Shing Jea, so creating myself as one doesn't contradict the game at all.

And, as I said, I'm already in a Luxon guild, even if I weren't a luxon myself, I know, because I can go to the guild hall. I have luxon skills. My guild has luxon faction. That means, whether or not I am luxon (each character can be different), I am allied to the luxon EITHER WAY.

As I wouldn't kill my own, I wouldn't want to kill my allies either. Actually, I think you're just arguing to argue. Most of this has already been pointed out.

Unless I have something new to say, I won't be adding to this thread.

I have no direct in-game proof, but there are things that make it unlikely for you to be Luxon:

1) Your character has never been referred to as a Luxon, neither by the Luxons nor the Kurzicks, and both sides have allowed you to help them before you chose a faction.
2) You don't look Luxon, of course that can be just because your character does not like that look :P
3) Whenever there has been an interaction with the Luxon culture and such (such as at the Convocation, where Rhea explained the comming of Zhu Hanuku to you and Togo) you have been the one silently listening and learning about those things. Of course you could have known without telling, or it could be that you just didn't know that specific thing. However, the comming of Zhu Hanuku is a most important part of Luxon culture so it would be unlikely for you as a Luxon to not know about it, and why would you not tell Togo about that contest of Zhu Hanuku if you knew that that is essential in gaining the spear of Archemorous, or however it's spelled :P

Well generally you make very good points, but I think we have to agree to disagree unless you want to continue the discussion

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 23, 2009, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

I have no direct in-game proof, but there are things that make it unlikely for you to be Luxon:

1) Your character has never been referred to as a Luxon, neither by the Luxons nor the Kurzicks, and both sides have allowed you to help them before you chose a faction.
2) You don't look Luxon, of course that can be just because your character does not like that look :P
3) Whenever there has been an interaction with the Luxon culture and such (such as at the Convocation, where Rhea explained the comming of Zhu Hanuku to you and Togo) you have been the one silently listening and learning about those things. Of course you could have known without telling, or it could be that you just didn't know that specific thing. However, the comming of Zhu Hanuku is a most important part of Luxon culture so it would be unlikely for you as a Luxon to not know about it, and why would you not tell Togo about that contest of Zhu Hanuku if you knew that that is essential in gaining the spear of Archemorous, or however it's spelled :P

Well generally you make very good points, but I think we have to agree to disagree unless you want to continue the discussion

You're not thinking clearly. Your gender is never directly mentioned in game, but that doesn't mean you don't have one.

You're confusing a roleplaying decision with what the game STATES.

In the scene with Jin and Sousake, they speak about "that new sunspear leader", without identifying gender.

"Nice moves, has potential."

Jin's answer. No mention of gender. Does that mean your character doesn't have one?

The game mentions NOTHING about your past, pre the time you arrived at Shing Jea. Does that mean you don't have a past?

Yet, you are WEARING your guild cloak. That means you are at very LEAST an alley of the Luxon, since your guild is. Why would you be wearing that cloak, if you're not a member of that Guild. Why would you be a member of that Guild, if you weren't allied to the Luxons.

The game doesn't saddle a player with a past before the events of the game start. None of them do. This creates roleplaying opportunities for roleplayers. If you think it's unintentional, you're probably mistaken.

That I choose to use that lack of detail as a springboard is a personal choice.

But if you're wearing a guild cape, and the guild is allied and you can fight in alliance battles, how can you not consider Luxons your allies?

When you can explain why my character is wearing a cape from a Luxon allied guild, yet he's not a luxon or a luxon ally, I'll be happy to take the consider the rest of your argument.

Sword Hammer Axe · Jun 23, 2009, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

You're not thinking clearly. Your gender is never directly mentioned in game, but that doesn't mean you don't have one.

You're confusing a roleplaying decision with what the game STATES.

In the scene with Jin and Sousake, they speak about "that new sunspear leader", without identifying gender.

"Nice moves, has potential."

Jin's answer. No mention of gender. Does that mean your character doesn't have one?

The game mentions NOTHING about your past, pre the time you arrived at Shing Jea. Does that mean you don't have a past?

Yet, you are WEARING your guild cloak. That means you are at very LEAST an alley of the Luxon, since your guild is. Why would you be wearing that cloak, if you're not a member of that Guild. Why would you be a member of that Guild, if you weren't allied to the Luxons.

The game doesn't saddle a player with a past before the events of the game start. None of them do. This creates roleplaying opportunities for roleplayers. If you think it's unintentional, you're probably mistaken.

That I choose to use that lack of detail as a springboard is a personal choice.

But if you're wearing a guild cape, and the guild is allied and you can fight in alliance battles, how can you not consider Luxons your allies?

When you can explain why my character is wearing a cape from a Luxon allied guild, yet he's not a luxon or a luxon ally, I'll be happy to take the consider the rest of your argument.

Don't say that I'm not thinking clearly because I am. You don't have to insult me to get your point through.

You clearly ARE an ally of the Luxons, but that doesn't mean you ARE a Luxon. There is no in game proof that you are in fact Luxon, while there are things that, without proving you aren't, speak against that you are Luxon of origin.

When it comes to gender: You chose a gender as soon as you made your character therefore your character is of that gender. There really doesn't need more proof than that.

It's fine if you want to chose a roleplaying past for your character, I do that myself in fact. But the game can in no way take responsibility for that personal decision of yours, so they can not do anything about these flaws of fighting your own faction since those flaws are not related to the game but to your personal decision of being Luxon.

As far as the game concerns you are only an ally of the Luxons, no more, no less. And since there is a clear difference of being allied to a faction than actually being one of them you will be treated as an ally.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 23, 2009, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

Don't say that I'm not thinking clearly because I am. You don't have to insult me to get your point through.

You clearly ARE an ally of the Luxons, but that doesn't mean you ARE a Luxon. There is no in game proof that you are in fact Luxon, while there are things that, without proving you aren't, speak against that you are Luxon of origin.

When it comes to gender: You chose a gender as soon as you made your character therefore your character is of that gender. There really doesn't need more proof than that.

It's fine if you want to chose a roleplaying past for your character, I do that myself in fact. But the game can in no way take responsibility for that personal decision of yours, so they can not do anything about these flaws of fighting your own faction since those flaws are not related to the game but to your personal decision of being Luxon.

As far as the game concerns you are only an ally of the Luxons, no more, no less. And since there is a clear difference of being allied to a faction than actually being one of them you will be treated as an ally.

My point is just as valid if I'm an ally, which you've admitted, or a Luxon itself.

Do you go out and kill your allies?

If so, I'd hate to be in an alliance with you.

You're just arguing to argue.

If I'm asked to kill my ally, then I need motivation. What's the difference if I am, or am not luxon.

It's like asking an American soldier in WWII to kill an Englishman. He wouldn't like it, and without motivation wouldn't do it.

As for being insulting, if you were thinking clearly, this conversation would have been over a long time ago.

I've made this point how many times now. There's no proof your not a luxon or you are. But you are a luxon ally so WHO CARES?

I'm completely done with this conversation. I will post no more.