Curse

Tyla · Jan 15, 2009, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

One of Guild Wars' charms is that there are multiple ways of dealing with a problem and tank'n'spank is one of them. It would be a shame if physical-way would become the only solution to the toughest problems.

The thing is, if someone will view Tank 'N' Spank and a heavy physical build the only viable alternatives (which it isn't, you could use a bit of creativity and your own knowledge to apply to it if you're unhappy with a certain playstyle - you don't always need tanks and physical for casters to be efficient at PvE, and I think Discord is something to keep in mind there as an example), then they're obviously not trying enough. Remember the Mantra of Frost build? B/P? There's lots of still viable alternatives, you just have to look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

How other people play DOES NOT AFFECT YOUR PLAYING. Period, end of story, have a nice day.

Did you miss the "Online" and "Co-operative" part of the game? If something is overly dominant, someone will lose out because they don't find it fun. Ursan is one example of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XeRox

Nerf CoP and "Cryway" dies. A week later, the next best build is spread. Maybe it contains FoC necros, E-surge mesmers, and RoJ smiters. Whatever the damage source, the style of playing will continue with matched, but slightly harder to use damage. Elite teams still get rediculously fast times. Pugs still use similar builds but much slower. PvE is still unbalanced. Nothing is fixed.

So, because people will use the next best build all of the time the game can't be balanced? That is not the reason.

Alternatives should at least be kept on par with each other. Even if my desire for all "dat dude get agro den hedbut keybaord" isn't fulfilled, that should happen anyway. How? Tone things down, don't just push them up in the ranks of strength, or you'll just end up with a button that says "complete the game" and you're already done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun

Why shouldn't the deep be able to be completed in 20minutes?

They were called "elite areas" for a reason. Even the best players shouldn't get times like that. 40 minutes, fair enough, but 20 minutes for full completion in hard mode? Taking it a bit too far up the ranks of stupidity there.

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A lot of the decreases in run times are due to Shadow Forms maintainability - that's the real enemy here.

That is pretty true, but it's not like the old "agro den hedbut" crap isn't a tag team partner is it?

It's a lesser evil, but it's still something that should be dealt with, much like Shadow Form.

Quote:

EDIT: Disagreeing with aspects of the game within reason is not what I'm refering to. I refer to the taunting of players who choose to run the builds you personally deem as not kosher, who you instantly label inexperiened or bad at the game. This has nothing to do with other games or "customization".

Disagreeing with aspects of the game and customization of their characteristics and "taunting" of other players will go hand in hand. If X player was inexperienced, but he was moaning and whining about how hard hard mode is, or why they can't do an elite area, then they should either improve or get off that mode because it wasn't for them, not ask for super powerful crap - they're asking for that customization I was talking about. That is, in a way, dictating how people should play the game, but at the same time, it makes sense. If you heard a game was challenging and you bought it, but moan that it's too hard, why the f*ck did you buy that game?

Athrun Feya · Jan 15, 2009, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

They were called "elite areas" for a reason. Even the best players shouldn't get times like that. 40 minutes, fair enough, but 20 minutes for full completion in hard mode? Taking it a bit too far up the ranks of stupidity there.

Maybe pay a little more attention to my previous post. At the time of release these missions were elite - when we didn't know any better - we're now two and a half years wiser. Funnily enough, after doing the same thing for two and a half years progress has been made and we have refined quicker ways of doing things. The times don't only reflect skill changes, but increase in understanding of the areas and tactics therefore more fitted for purpose.

I don't see why my comment is stupid. It's more stupid to assume that elite missions must be time stamped. What makes 40 minutes perfectly acceptable but 20 minutes not? Who has the divine right to decide at what point timing stops being fine and when something somehow must be overpowered or even glitchy? Current completion time, especially in the older elite missions, just reflects the progress we have made.

Snow Bunny · Jan 15, 2009, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Just nerf [cry of pain], [shadow form], and ["save yourselves!"], and PvE will be balanced.

romeus petrus · Jan 15, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Just nerf [cry of pain], [shadow form], and ["save yourselves!"], and PvE will be balanced.

As long as all 3 are nerfed to oblivion I agree. Nerfing one while leaving the others the way they are is hypocritical.

Jenn · Jan 15, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

I agree with randy agreeing with snow.

P.S. I want joo both in my pantz NAO

xeRox teh Sorcerer · Jan 15, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

So, because people will use the next best build all of the time the game can't be balanced? That is not the reason.

Alternatives should at least be kept on par with each other. Even if my desire for all "dat dude get agro den hedbut keybaord" isn't fulfilled, that should happen anyway. How? Tone things down, don't just push them up in the ranks of strength, or you'll just end up with a button that says "complete the game" and you're already done.

What do you want to happen? Make Tank'n'spank so uneffective its no faster than balanced builds? They are two totally different play styles. Different people enjoy different things, differet people enjoy different games. Pug runs seem to accept almost any profession in cryway. Same as ursan - almost all professiosn are accepted to a build. They do it incredibly slowly and it must be boring as hell. Just because certain guilds run elite missions in amazing time with a build doesn't mean pugs get anywhere near that time. Theres no way the game can be totally balanced - SS is amazingly overpowed in The Deep because the majority of enemies are melee and Kanaxai, Aspects & Oni all hit extreamly fast with 100% double strike rate. This doesn't mean its any good in DoA where you need a spike to be under 3 seconds or you start dying. In deep, Wandering eye has about 99% chance of triggering unless your dumb, making it very useful. Whereas in DoA, Esurge is more useful, dispite its elite status and long recharge. Theres is no way to balance all these skills so they are only effective as the next one in each area. What you are saying is rediculous.

If you bought a game, kinda enjoyed it but found it way too hard, so you gave up before long, your not gonna go to your friend (if you have them) "yeah gws is funfun you should buy it!". Anet needs to please as many people as possible to keep their sales up, and pleasing many is very important especially with so many people un-sure of wether to buy GW2. Why do you think they kept ursan how it was for so long? - People started playing, enjoyed it but couldn't do anything without ursan, so bought EotN.

Nerfing every effective build will knock their player count to the ground, whenever something is nerfed, the next best thing will come up, and Anet can't destroy it without losing another load of potential GW2 customers.

Lets say The Deep is made much harder, ohnoes we can't get as fast as we could before. Now a good deep run is 40 minuets not 20 minutes. Every other run is also 20 minutes longer. The build that gets the 40 minute runs are still unbalanced compared to the ones that get hour runs. Whatever happens, things will always be unbalanced and people will always be here to argue about it. The fact that you don't play gws, yet still come here just to argue, I think is very sad.

Also, even with 20 minute runs, you still only looking at about 3k an hour, with the occasinal gold thats worth something. Might be fast, but its not worthwhile for money - people do it for fun. Doesn't afftect the economy much, just gives some people who enjoy it something to do.

romeus petrus · Jan 15, 2009, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

P.S. I want joo both in my pantz NAO

Can I go first??

Snow Bunny · Jan 15, 2009, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

Can I go first??

I got the irish accent mate....

Gargle Blaster · Jan 15, 2009, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Someone in this town
Is trying to burn the playhouse down
They want to stop the ones who want
Prosthetic foreheads on their heads
But everybody wants prosthetic
Foreheads on their real heads

there is nothing wrong with PvE. the problem is the community (everyone wants the fastest cheepest way to make the most $). The solution is to stop blaming anet on what the community is doing and change what small bit of the community you have influence over.

So lets go play... and play well --with whatever chars we want... im more than willing to play (but dont tell me what must be/not be on my bar)

credit · Jan 15, 2009, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by credit

anet should balance pve around killing luxons

bumping my idea

Wubbies · Jan 15, 2009, 08:56 PM // 20:56

making mental notes to self

A) please god dont let Tyla join anet her ideas..whacked
B)i believe tyla likes to debate till the cows come home
c) i dont even bother reading tyla posts 2 long, 2 bitchy, 2 boring
D) did some say party?
E) close the thread Unless u rename it tylas bitchbox..press here for entry.

i think to balance all of pve u need to Nerf the Res Signet and all forms of res

and i also take great offense to the fact that instead of koolaid anet used beer and its a teen game..isnt that against the law? bring back the koolaid title..and nerf the drunkard title

last note to self->>>>>>>>> and to tyla---......?>>>> make tea not love

Highlander Of Alba · Jan 15, 2009, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Simply Put//PVE is ok as it is

Far too many whinners wanting ...there way to suit there gameplay

Its not your game ..its everyones game not the few on this community

If you dont like it dont play it..ohh i forgot the whinners are the Farmers who just want more and more

PVP is here for guys who dont like it also Pve that is

Anet your doing a good job for a game ...that is free to play...keep up the good work and ignore the small group who continusly moan ..just for the sake of moaning

zelgadissan · Jan 15, 2009, 08:59 PM // 20:59

All I can add to this conversation past my initial post is - Tyla is male. Also, he is right far, far more often than wrong.

Wubbies · Jan 15, 2009, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

All I can add to this conversation past my initial post is - Tyla is male. Also, he is right far, far more often than wrong.

tyla he/she him/her wasnt my point... and you thinking HE is more right than wrong is an opinion not an actual fact. if it was a fact than when tyla spoke people would listen ( for all u EF Hutton fans ). and then there would be far less posts.

IMO i tihnk anet is doing a fine job and should not listen to people that just wanna bitch cause a skill gets nerfed and that cant be creative enuff to find another way. instead come on here bitch and cry my build got nerfed, grow up, take a laxative, have a smoke or whatever. move on. if those people spent 1/2 the time bitching and actually find another elite skill....well u get the point.

I love anet and im the #1 fan

open your eyes ..cant you see the humor anet does? oh wait you cant cause you dont realise its just a game.

Tyla · Jan 15, 2009, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

Maybe pay a little more attention to my previous post. At the time of release these missions were elite - when we didn't know any better - we're now two and a half years wiser. Funnily enough, after doing the same thing for two and a half years progress has been made and we have refined quicker ways of doing things. The times don't only reflect skill changes, but increase in understanding of the areas and tactics therefore more fitted for purpose.

They are still labelled "elite" areas. They should have always been "elite", and hard mode should have always been "hard".

Without Consumables, SY, SF or CoP? Those times we see today won't even be met. Consumables only make a small area of that though, at least in my opinion.

Quote:

I don't see why my comment is stupid. It's more stupid to assume that elite missions must be time stamped. What makes 40 minutes perfectly acceptable but 20 minutes not? Who has the divine right to decide at what point timing stops being fine and when something somehow must be overpowered or even glitchy? Current completion time, especially in the older elite missions, just reflects the progress we have made.

Your comment wasn't the part I called stupid, it was the time. 20 minutes for an "elite" area is just stupid outside of games with obscenely high leveling (understandable), but 40 minutes should be the maximum for one of the "best" teams who do the area.

If you could now complete it in 1 minute, would you view that as dumb for an elite area clear time? If not then your view of "elite" is pretty off side to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wubbies

tyla he/she him/her wasnt my point... and you thinking HE is more right than wrong is an opinion not an actual fact.

Actually, it's false or true depending on whether I am right or wrong - if it was 100% opinion based, then you'd have a point.

Quote:

making mental notes to self

A) please god dont let Tyla join anet her ideas..whacked
B)i believe tyla likes to debate till the cows come home
c) i dont even bother reading tyla posts 2 long, 2 bitchy, 2 boring
D) did some say party?
E) close the thread Unless u rename it tylas bitchbox..press here for entry.

B is entirely true, my posts aren't really very long or bitchy, and by the time I join ANet they'll probably be out because I'm not even 20 yet, or have any computer-based knowledge outside of the basic areas.

Quote:

i think to balance all of pve u need to Nerf the Res Signet and all forms of res
and i also take great offense to the fact that instead of koolaid anet used beer and its a teen game..isnt that against the law? bring back the koolaid title..and nerf the drunkard title

You're telling me my ideas are crap, then you come up with this in the wrong thread?

Quote:

last note to self->>>>>>>>> and to tyla---......?>>>> make tea not love

The "posh" age of Britain died long ago.

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IMO i tihnk anet is doing a fine job and should not listen to people that just wanna bitch cause a skill gets nerfed and that cant be creative enuff to find another way. instead come on here bitch and cry my build got nerfed, grow up, take a laxative, have a smoke or whatever. move on. if those people spent 1/2 the time bitching and actually find another elite skill....well u get the point.

You've completely lost the plot. It's not "crying 'cause a skill gets nerfed", it's, to put it in your perspective, "crying for skill nerfs". I don't even remember the last time I got into a debate where I was complaining about a skill being nerfed. Please try to stay on topic and understand what it is about before you respond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highlander of Alba

Simply Put//PVE is ok as it is

Far too many whinners wanting ...there way to suit there gameplay

Its not your game ..its everyones game not the few on this community

If you dont like it dont play it..ohh i forgot the whinners are the Farmers who just want more and more

PVP is here for guys who dont like it also Pve that is

Anet your doing a good job for a game ...that is free to play...keep up the good work and ignore the small group who continusly moan ..just for the sake of moaning

You do know that criticism is the beginning point of improvement, right?

You are also aware that the majority of the people who are "whining" aren't even farmers, at least from my sources.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

there is nothing wrong with PvE. the problem is the community (everyone wants the fastest cheepest way to make the most $). The solution is to stop blaming anet on what the community is doing and change what small bit of the community you have influence over.

The things ANet do have major influence on people. Who wouldn't use the best method (determined by their playstyle) to get what they want? The only exception is running old school bars for the "buzz" of it.

There is also the fact that people choosing the best method possible are doing what the common thing is; you can't blame people for being human.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XeRox

Make Tank'n'spank so uneffective its no faster than balanced builds?

You do know what "on par" means, right?

Either way, before Cryway it already was less effective than physical builds.

Quote:

Also, even with 20 minute runs, you still only looking at about 3k an hour, with the occasinal gold thats worth something. Might be fast, but its not worthwhile for money - people do it for fun. Doesn't afftect the economy much, just gives some people who enjoy it something to do.

The economy and ingame cash means f*ck all to me. Pretty much the least thing I care about ever. 20 minutes for an elite area though? You're kidding.

kielus · Jan 15, 2009, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

They should have always been "elite", and hard mode should have always been "hard".

You're getting riddiculous here. It's been a while since both elite areas and hard mode was introduced. Do you know what 'progress' is? Or perhaps 'game evolution' ?

You really want us to move backwards? Or stay in one place? Running the same old primitive builds that were in use ages ago? (i'm not neglecting their usefullness, they still sometimes are more than decent). Oh be serious. We're given the tools. So we use them.

It's not like i'm a huge fan of cryway, cause i am not. For me it's just another imba skill, but the whole idea, of doing huge amounts of damage that would hit mobs with 100% effectivity is quite good.

You really want everyone in the world to play with:
lure->dmg->heal->wait_for_everyone_regen->run_back (cause someone aggroed)-> lure->dmg-> run_back (someone aggroed) rinse and repeat?

It's not only skills that got buffed, we've worked our skills, we know spawns, we know mob skillsets, we know patrols and spots to tank, we know how to lure mobs and how to kill mobs efficiently. You want everyone to abandon that? In name of what?

And last thing.
How on earth you want to balance something, that consists of dozens of scripted mobs, with imba high attributes and up to three classes against 1-12 human players, with brains (usually), thinking, usually prepared (cause when you do something over and over, and even keep failing you'll learn something), and with thought over build-sets, with knowledge?

It's not like mobs know you'll run cryway and start to scatter and rubberband all over the place....

thought i'd put my 0.05$, don't take it too serious;

cheers,
kielus

p.s.
i love this thread so much

edit:
oh side-note: do you always clear 100% of an elite area when you do it? I mean, every pop-up, every mob and critter, basically anything that can be killed? If no, you're making it easy, you're killing the idea of elite area being 'elite' and hard. No? *forced sarcasm tag, just in case*

Tony Malketh · Jan 15, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Interesting discussion (if discussion and not skill bashing/hating it can be called) so far. Most of the ppl against the argued skills object because they allow fast/perceived to be easy clears of elite areas while the people for them argue that there are many other alternatives which can achieve similar results but use Cop/SY/SF because its the fastest and hence more practical choice of skill sets available to them.

SF is a bit silly i agree with but lets be honest, for those who don't farm its a bit of fun. Its nice to be able to run about areas with shear immunity to most damage

CoP; its a great skill. However, what is mind boggling is when everyone in the party can take it AND do the same if not more damage than a mesmer with it. As has been suggested previously, tying it to fast casting would again make it practical. Nerfing instead of changing it, and by nerf i mean 'weaken' so its nothing like what it was created as, is like cutting off a hand for stealing an apple, a complete over reaction.

Tyla, a quick comment. Isn't it slightly hypocritical to say that the 'posh' age of britain (said as an insult) is over when u said earlier u no longer play the game but want to improve it for others because you care? how terribly....noble...

[DE] · Jan 15, 2009, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Think about it - an elite area being done in 20 minutes. That's not player skill, that's overpowered skill abuse.

Lord Sojar · Jan 15, 2009, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Actually, DE is right. Player skill is important, but not when you have:

Overpowered PvE only skills
Consets (essentially cheats for the game)

It cannot be hidden under some veil of "experience". Essentially, those who attempt to veil the delusion that their skill is somehow above a conset are exactly that, delusional. Consets alone make you nearly invulnerable. Just yesterday, I intentionally aggroed 30+ enemies in NF HM (In Wilderness of Bazhah or whatever it is called) Not only did they all die in short order, no one died or even came close [no one dropped below 33% HP] That is SILLY. To deny this is to deny fact. Denying fact is bad... period.

However, personal insults are not tolerated. The next person to throw one out will be given an infraction, and this thread will be closed (if it already isn't going to be). Act like adults and behave yourselves; I know you have it in you.

[DE] · Jan 16, 2009, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Some people suggest that using other armor-ignoring AoE skills would allow for similar times, and thus that CoP isn't overpowered.

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And, seeing as there is already other armour-ignoring AoE damage out there that would function the same and get similar times, are you implying these skills are overpowered too? (FoC, RoJ, E Surge..)

While Jesusbeam does need to be fixed (have AI recognize it as AoE), it (along with FoC, Esurge, etc) wouldn't be able to get similar times due to Cry of Pain having a much bigger Area of Effect than them. Not to point out that FoC is dependent on hexes, Esurge dependent on energy pools, and RoJ having a very small AoE where it hits.