Curse

bhavv · Jan 07, 2009, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Remove all PVE only skills, remove consumables, allow 7 heroes per party, PVE = Fix'd.

Tyla · Jan 07, 2009, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Remove all PVE only skills, remove consumables, allow 7 heroes per party, PVE = Fix'd.

No it won't be. Removing PvE-only skills and consumables is a good idea, no lie, but allowing 7 heroes into a party is just stupid and contradicting with removng PvE only skills / consumables - heroes would be even more "delightful" to have in your party compared to real players. As it currently stands it's already possible to complete PvE with heroes, but players are a lesser to take in PuGs. PuGs do suck, but leaving it so that heroes / henchmen is still possible in PvE while making the PuG option more outward would be better for the teamwork area of the game.

PvE won't make a full recovery to decency again, but bringing it as close to that point as possible would be the best thing to do.

the_jos · Jan 07, 2009, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

No it won't be. Removing PvE-only skills and consumables is a good idea, no lie, but allowing 7 heroes into a party is just stupid and contradicting with removng PvE only skills / consumables - heroes would be even more "delightful" to have in your party compared to real players. As it currently stands it's already possible to complete PvE with heroes, but players are a lesser to take in PuGs. PuGs do suck, but leaving it so that heroes / henchmen is still possible in PvE while making the PuG option more outward would be better for the teamwork area of the game.

PvE won't make a full recovery to decency again, but bringing it as close to that point as possible would be the best thing to do.

Bhavv should know that heroes are more delightful to have in a party, because heroes don't walk out of his wards!

To be honest, if I want to do something fast and failsafe and don't have a guildie to team up with most of the time I grab a bunch of heroes and hench and do whatever I want. No cons involved, no or hardly no PvE skills involved.

If the goal of the changes is to make team play in (semi)random groups more attractive we shouldn't look at heroes, consumables or PvE skills, but at things like the very limited party window and the fact that we need to resort on external resources like guild and alliance websites to organise stuff.

For example, I might be interested in playing Glaya NM (masters), Vloxen HM, Hell's bonus NM and GoM HM. And some FoW randomway for fun. Others might be stupid enough to be willing to team up with me (remember, I walk out of Bhavv's wards). But I can't really tell them I'm interested and they also don't know that. Sure, I can go to guru and post in the PUG thread, but many players don't use guru.

The only reason I support the debuff of PvE skills and consumables is not because it makes teaming with other humans better or more efficient, it's because I think they create bad players.

A couple of months ago I refused to help a guildie and told him to find another guild. Not because I'm not willing to help, my main reason was that he used our guild as a way to get to DoA as fast as possible. He was hardly in Vabbi and did just all the wrong things, not willing to listen to any reasoning. And he was determined to get to DoA that same day.
Remember, this player will arrive in DoA sooner or later and PvE skills and consumables would be a huge aid to achieving this goal. And then what?
You team up with him and surprise, surprise, he still can't play and does all the things wrong. Wasting the time for grouping and probably the first set of consumables.
Because, unlike regular NM PvE, DoA isn't very forgiving for mistakes. Sure, little mistakes but not the kind he made.

And I know those players will arrive in DoA someday.
But I'd like them to struggle at least a little for it, not because I hate them but because they might learn something along the way. They might be less of a burden in the 'hard' areas of the game by the time they arrive there.

I'd like to see more teaming and overpowered (human-only) PvE skills and consumables help to achieve that.
But I think the price of the bad gameplay that's possible with those in the current state isn't worth it.

The only change that was mentioned in the OP I still am not sure about is the soul reaping one.
Not because of the change, but because the necro-team is kind of a swiss army knife. It can do a lot, but other tools are superior in many situations.

A more reasonable change I can think off is that for every 3 points in SR the effect of non-necromancer skills is decreased by 10%.
That way abuse of SR for the secondary profession is limited.

Improvavel · Jan 07, 2009, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

No it won't be. Removing PvE-only skills and consumables is a good idea, no lie, but allowing 7 heroes into a party is just stupid and contradicting with removng PvE only skills / consumables - heroes would be even more "delightful" to have in your party compared to real players. As it currently stands it's already possible to complete PvE with heroes, but players are a lesser to take in PuGs. PuGs do suck, but leaving it so that heroes / henchmen is still possible in PvE while making the PuG option more outward would be better for the teamwork area of the game.

PvE won't make a full recovery to decency again, but bringing it as close to that point as possible would be the best thing to do.

Yes, because with solo quests on festivities like x-mas ANet is promoting play with other people....

I can have 6 heroes with 2 accounts, which are better than 3 heroes+4 badly built not equipped/runned henchies.

@ the_jos

Leave soul reaping alone. That nerf by the OP was intent at nerfing heroes, MY GOD HEROES!!!!

GWs need henchies/heroes, because getting all the roles filled is time consuming.

Imagine that if every time u wanted to play u had to get a 8 person party... Also don't see why if u are alone u should be playing crappy builds on half of ur team...

Age · Jan 07, 2009, 09:35 PM // 21:35

When I hear the word gimmick build I think of HA eg IWAY and RitSpike just to name a few.

Getting back on topic. I would suggest there need to be bigger reward for getting back into grouping agian.I would say with full team free passage to as it now to the UW and FoW.You won't need to gods blessing either.Then there are missions some type of reward for doing those with full real party maybe better drops or 1000g for completing it with full party.

the_jos · Jan 08, 2009, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

@ the_jos

Leave soul reaping alone. That nerf by the OP was intent at nerfing heroes, MY GOD HEROES!!!!

GWs need henchies/heroes, because getting all the roles filled is time consuming.

Imagine that if every time u wanted to play u had to get a 8 person party... Also don't see why if u are alone u should be playing crappy builds on half of ur team...

I agree with you that GW needs heroes and henchies.
There are just too many empty outposts and players are spread all over 3 continents and an expansion.

But now let's look at what the OP stated about them: "when playing solo is more effective than playing with others, there's a problem."

Let's see why heroes are more effective and where they are less effective.
To start with the latter, heroes can't read the battlefield, can't predict anything (though I've had some healer hench pre-prot me several times), can't split, stand in AoE damage. In general, they are 'stupid'. But with some micromanagement this ain't that bad. And one more disadvantage, heroes seem to like being on low energy. They keep spamming spells and skills.
Now let's see what heroes are good at. They don't leave your party, they don't complain, they follow orders (and you), they don't draw unintended aggro without the player's mistake, they are very good at reacting on situations meaning that they will pump red bars up and use conditional skills when the condition is met.
Furtermore, as you mentioned, heroes cut a lot of time from teaming.

Now as the op stated, playing solo is more effective than playing with others.
I don't fully agree on that, the most effective would be 2 humans + 6 heroes (and not 1 human, 3 heroes and 4 henchies) or a full human organised and experienced team. Why? The human team would be about as effective as heroes on the thing heroes are good at, doesn't have the disadvantages that heroes have and are far better on prioritizing their skill usage.
The two human + 6 heroes is most optimal because it gives the benefit of full control over the team (assuming both players have unlocked all skills and can use the best runes/weapons available). And compared to the time it takes to organise a 'random' human party this combination is far superior.

So my problem isn't exactly the OP's problem. 2 humans + heroes is more effective than true soloplay, so changing SR to achieve more people playing together isn't really making things better.
However, I do think that SR gives both necro humans and necro heroes an unfair advantage at them moment.
They have access to an unlimited pool of energy, which isn't bad for the necro skills, but allows spamming of non-necro skills that the class from which the skill originates can't spam.
For example, if I want to run Heal Party in my team I can put it on a monk and he's drained after 3 casts. Put it on a necro and as long as stuff is dieing the necro will be able to spam. The same is true for many expensive monk spells. A couple of months ago I tried a very energy intense N/E build, because of stuff dieing all over the place the hero was almost allways able to cast on reload. Try that on an ele...

And while the change the OP proposed would solve this, it does it the wrong way. If someone wants three of more necro's in his/her team, they should be fully effective as necro. But it shouldn't be that they are more effective filling the roles other classes were intended to, something that's currently the case. Furtermore, in most necro teams the more necro's you add, the less efficient the necro line will become. It's far better to use some necro skills your team needs and spec the rest on their secondary profession.
It's easy to make an Icy Veins necro that is full Rt healing for the rest of the skills. And the team will benefit from both IV as the healing.

This problem is mainly a heroes problem. Most human necro players will feel they are more efficient as necro as they are as hibrid or full specced secondary. Playing a N/Rt or N/Mo isn't the kind of play people play necro for.
And it's exactly what hero necro's love to do. Move red bars up and use skills when conditions are met. And they can spam their skills, since they have unlimited energy.

I think it's fair to at least consider a change to SR combined with the secondary profession. Someone else surgested capping the secondary on 9 for all professions (other thread), that's also a solution.

And remember, when Sabway was invented people didn't have EotN PvE skills, so the build was powerfull back then and very able to do the job, but it's is far more powerfull today when the human player uses the right PvE skills.

Improvavel · Jan 08, 2009, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I agree with you that GW needs heroes and henchies.
There are just too many empty outposts and players are spread all over 3 continents and an expansion.

But now let's look at what the OP stated about them: "when playing solo is more effective than playing with others, there's a problem."

Let's see why heroes are more effective and where they are less effective.
To start with the latter, heroes can't read the battlefield, can't predict anything (though I've had some healer hench pre-prot me several times), can't split, stand in AoE damage. In general, they are 'stupid'. But with some micromanagement this ain't that bad. And one more disadvantage, heroes seem to like being on low energy. They keep spamming spells and skills.
Now let's see what heroes are good at. They don't leave your party, they don't complain, they follow orders (and you), they don't draw unintended aggro without the player's mistake, they are very good at reacting on situations meaning that they will pump red bars up and use conditional skills when the condition is met.
Furtermore, as you mentioned, heroes cut a lot of time from teaming.

Now as the op stated, playing solo is more effective than playing with others.
I don't fully agree on that, the most effective would be 2 humans + 6 heroes (and not 1 human, 3 heroes and 4 henchies) or a full human organised and experienced team. Why? The human team would be about as effective as heroes on the thing heroes are good at, doesn't have the disadvantages that heroes have and are far better on prioritizing their skill usage.
The two human + 6 heroes is most optimal because it gives the benefit of full control over the team (assuming both players have unlocked all skills and can use the best runes/weapons available). And compared to the time it takes to organise a 'random' human party this combination is far superior.

So my problem isn't exactly the OP's problem. 2 humans + heroes is more effective than true soloplay, so changing SR to achieve more people playing together isn't really making things better.
However, I do think that SR gives both necro humans and necro heroes an unfair advantage at them moment.
They have access to an unlimited pool of energy, which isn't bad for the necro skills, but allows spamming of non-necro skills that the class from which the skill originates can't spam.
For example, if I want to run Heal Party in my team I can put it on a monk and he's drained after 3 casts. Put it on a necro and as long as stuff is dieing the necro will be able to spam. The same is true for many expensive monk spells. A couple of months ago I tried a very energy intense N/E build, because of stuff dieing all over the place the hero was almost allways able to cast on reload. Try that on an ele...

And while the change the OP proposed would solve this, it does it the wrong way. If someone wants three of more necro's in his/her team, they should be fully effective as necro. But it shouldn't be that they are more effective filling the roles other classes were intended to, something that's currently the case. Furtermore, in most necro teams the more necro's you add, the less efficient the necro line will become. It's far better to use some necro skills your team needs and spec the rest on their secondary profession.
It's easy to make an Icy Veins necro that is full Rt healing for the rest of the skills. And the team will benefit from both IV as the healing.

This problem is mainly a heroes problem. Most human necro players will feel they are more efficient as necro as they are as hibrid or full specced secondary. Playing a N/Rt or N/Mo isn't the kind of play people play necro for.
And it's exactly what hero necro's love to do. Move red bars up and use skills when conditions are met. And they can spam their skills, since they have unlimited energy.

I think it's fair to at least consider a change to SR combined with the secondary profession. Someone else surgested capping the secondary on 9 for all professions (other thread), that's also a solution.

And remember, when Sabway was invented people didn't have EotN PvE skills, so the build was powerfull back then and very able to do the job, but it's is far more powerfull today when the human player uses the right PvE skills.

I agree that 2 players + 6 heroes is very good. That's the way I play most of the time, and I bet its quite easy for anyone to have a real life friend, a brother/sister/cousin or parents and kids, to play in that way. And most of the game is balanced in that way.

Yes, necro heroes (but paragon heroes are amazing too, it is just a pitty you only have four of them with 2 players, stupid mox had to be a dervish

) are very very powerful, and Necromancer always had been the most powerful PvE profession with their SR that basically is equivalent or better than any Elite energy management skill.

But human players, can and will match the necromancer ability to spam skills, even if only because they know they don't need to remove blind from a mesmer.

Along with that, the most powerful advantage humans have is the ability to split in to small teams to eliminate different targets. And melee professions can kill quite fast with deep wound and or splinter weapon.

In my opinion, you either nerf soul reaping because it is too powerful or you don't. Nerfing it to destroy necromancer heroes only is just stupid.

Captain Herbalife · Jan 12, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

I am so amazed that people are still crying for PvE nerfs this late in the game's life. I don't understand why anyone would want a PvE nerf of any sort at this point. The game is on the way downhill. I would seriously estimate that we have lost 1/3 of the player base that we had 1 year ago. Why? Because of the age of the game and nerfing. To say that PvE needs "balancing" is just a load of bull. Why does it need nerfing? Because you feel someone is getting away with something? Well if it was pvp I would agree with you. But, PvE isnt meant to be balaced in the manner that your all complaining about it. People here wanting another soul reaping nerf. Why dont we just remove the necro from the game. That might solve your inadequacy issues about necros. You want to kill "cry of pain", sure thats what I would do, I remember when mesmers were the most underplayed class in the game.....for a long time.
You want to promote teamplay in GW? Give an IQ test to all new players, that might help. And it may do alot of you some good to keep in mind that you have been playing for 3+ years and alot of the people now in the game are new. Making judgement calls on new players and the way they play is easy from the viewpoint of someone playing this long.
You want to make a difference in the game? Try logging onto it and forming parties with new players and helping them learn how to play instead of sitting on a forum whinning and complaining that they dont play like you do.

Tyla · Jan 12, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

It's not because of the nerfing as a main area, it's because of the implimentations that got nerfed. If something wasn't there in the first place it doesn't need changing.

That, and quitting the game because of nerfed skills is retarded (it's an online game which is/(was) competetive and nerfs only hurt PvE directly when there's barely any viabilities in said class) unless they totally kill the design scheme of a class.

Also, you say nerfing Soul Reaping is equivilant to removing Necros from the game. How does this even compare to removing them from the game?

Captain Herbalife · Jan 13, 2009, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Also, you say nerfing Soul Reaping is equivilant to removing Necros from the game. How does this even compare to removing them from the game?

Might wanna read what i wrote before saying that i compared this. I said instead of nerfing them just remove them. It has been an issue for everyone playing the game so it seems, so remove them. Skill nerfing is one of the causes of these "glitch" builds anyway. I remember when everyone complained about B/P groups, so they got nerfed. expertise nerf followed by pets can't be used for minions, followed by nerfing down barrage. Such examples can be sighted for any class in the game. For players who find enjoyment with a particular build or style of play, this is annoying. I am talking about casual players,not the farmers in DoA,UW,FoW etc... The ranger for instance is only useful for its spirits it seems in most players opinions, and then only as a secondary class. The best you can do with them now is the role of interupter, and with the long past nerf to expertise thats not always an option either. Some people like to h/h their way through the game. They get tired of trying missions with any number of idiots that can be expected with pug groups. As I stated before, maybe some of you who sit here and complain day after day should try logging into the game and helping those noobs that you all complain about. Help them learn to play. If your not part of the solution then you are part of the problem, and suggesting nerfs as being part of the solution is just not getting anywhere. And truthfully other than nerfing to be nerfing, what is the real point of nerfing in PvE?
If you feel that the present popular mode of play is not for you, then do it your way. It like saying "I" like soccer so football should either be done away with or make it more like soccer. Does that really make sense to you? It is a
rudimentary form of what you all are asking for.

the_jos · Jan 13, 2009, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Herbalife

As I stated before, maybe some of you who sit here and complain day after day should try logging into the game and helping those noobs that you all complain about. Help them learn to play. If your not part of the solution then you are part of the problem, and suggesting nerfs as being part of the solution is just not getting anywhere. And truthfully other than nerfing to be nerfing, what is the real point of nerfing in PvE?

The 'help them learn to play' part is the part where nerfing comes in.
A player does not learn to play when using overpowered builds in PUG farming groups.
Back to something I said earlier somewhere on the forum, I have seen players who were very good at a specific farm (UWSC or VS for example) but failed big time at anything regular.
Now I don't mind players farming, for some reason it seems to be the best thing to do to achieve titles (also cause of the problem).
However, if they would stuck with farming I would not mind but sooner or later they want Guardian or Vanquisher and some prefer to do that with a guild. And guess what, they can't do it in a team and are a burden to those who joined them for the mission or vq.
Why? Because they never learned to play.

VinnyRidira · Jan 13, 2009, 02:50 PM // 14:50

I have played this game for more hours than I care to mention. Even when we get a guild event going with people the real lack of healers is a major pain. I started the game in Prophecies even though I had Factions. Nightfall had not been introduced yet. I would join PuG to do missions but would generally quest with henchman if one of my friends were not available (most of the time). I really do prefer playing with one other person rather than more, mainly due to the fact that you want to balance a party and its easier without odd people. I had a Warrior and a Mesmer and I was playing with a Necro or a Ranger friend. I really appreciated the introduction of heroes as this suddenly gave me the ability to have "henchmen" with better builds. Still the pain of doing missions and trying to get decent Monks was irritating, and there was an elitism that heroes were bad. These days most of the people I have got involved with in a PuG situation still do not set up their heroes properly, but they are glad to get hero support. Hero healers are reliable even if the AI is not as optimal as some people would have it. When they introduced PvE skills, which give you a reason to increase your reputation/faction, Lightbringers Gaze the first one it was great. I would love to be able to play more than 3 heroes at a time, but the mechanic of that requires too much reprogramming for the micro management of the heroes. I think that PvE skills and the added set in EOTN are absolutely great. Consumables are also really nice and are very good for doing Elite areas as I cannot afford to play the game 24x7 and do it all the hard way. I think hard mode was badly implemented, some missions are very simple and others you fail because the NPC's get killed before you can get to them. Having hard mode and the ability to farm "Kurzick" or "Luxon" faction is great. I seldom would use consets here and quite like doing it with 2 peeps and good heroes. Crying because there is an ability to get synergy from different build combinations is a sad indictment to the elitists of this game. If you want to go and do hard mode elite areas with utter pain, please feel free to stop influencing my enjoyment with comments like Ursanway is unfair to the monsters in DoA. I have been to the DoA area and it is sparsely supported as it is elitism that stop people accepting that a Dervish or a Mesmer would like to do it. We are never going to be able to get groups of 8 people to play universally throughout the community, so stop trying to get it by interefering with other peoples enjoyment. I like Cry of Pain. I like Discord. I wish they had not nerfed soul reaping they way they did. Why should I not get energy back from killing a pet or killing a spirit. Those things were "alive" and attacking me. Maybe the energy I get back should be related to their level and not blanket. Balancing PvP is a joke as synergy builds will always come to the surface. Balancing PvE is ludicrous as it is totally unimportant.

Athrun Feya · Jan 13, 2009, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Any mention of SF, Cry of Pain, SY and similar and the same argument occurs.

Cryway emerged about 9 months ago and people used it happily for at least 6 months in Deep and DoA without being belittled. So why did it become like this? There's two issues here - GWGuru's view of cryway and the introduction of perma-SF

For 6 months there was no word of cryway on GWGuru; The Deep build appeared on PvXwiki and was congratulated for its innovation in a game that was more ursan/physical based. More recently, on the face of things, Cryway seemed to suddenly be taking over and crushing all elite areas - with all speed records slowly being claimed by cryway teams, guru claiming pugs and inexperiened people were shitting over the achievements of elitists who swore by a "superior" SY-dependant physicalway.

For those with a keen eye, the records show a very different story. Namely that most of them are from the same group of people, so suddenly what guru sees as PuGs and inexperiened people steaming through elite missions turns into a single group of hardcore players, who have a knack for coordination and tactics, working over the elite missions one by one and getting results. People who are capable, no doubt, of being just as successful in elite areas with a physical-way team.

I'm fully aware that cryway is a PuGs first choice in an elite areas, but how many of those PuGs are actually successful? You just need to look at DoA or the price of Obsidian Shards and realise these areas are still dying. I have yet to see a PuG steam flawlessly through an elite mission using cryway.

I agree SF shouldn't be maintainable but - like CoP and SY - all of these things already have just slightly inferior alturnatives. UWSC tactics were already being derived far before SF was maintainable. CoP could easily be replaced by other AoE armor ignoring damage (RoJ, FoC, E-Surge - just to name a few) - does this mean all these skills need nerfing also?

PvE isn't meant to be entirely balanced - why else would skills be PvE only?

Shursh · Jan 13, 2009, 06:25 PM // 18:25

interesting suggestions, but i think it's a little too much...you would totally kill PvE with these changes.

shadow form - leave it as it is now. it's only invinci-mode in certain areas, and in DOA especially, you need a bonder monk in order for it to work properly. this is called teamwork.

SY - i'm ok with the energy/adren/recharge requirements that you suggested, but decreasing the armor and making it only useable by a warrior would be the nail in the coffin for paragons. i understand that a group of 8 paras can steamroll PvE, but 95% of GW players (excluding the ones that come to these forums) don't know this. it's hard enough to get in a group as a para. with this change, para's would become even more of a solo class than they already are.

CoP - again, overkill. this skill would no longer be useable in PUGs. as many have said before, most PUGs have at least a few terribad players who struggle to lock on to the same target as everyone else. making this so you have to interrupt different targets (while also being a mesmer specced high enough in FC) is just downright cruel. besides, as it is now most PUGs have trouble holding aggro anyway.

the soul reaping change is absurd - why in the world would you want to punish groups consisting of multiple necros? a necro wanting to join a PUG that already had 2 others would get snubbed because his and every other necro's primary attribute would be complete crap. i understand that you want to limit the power of triple necro hero builds, but i think there are better ways of doing it. for example, limiting the number of heroes we have - 2 of each profession is sufficient.

as far as consumables are concerned, i could care less whether they stacked, were useable at the same time, etc. I think these are more gimmicky than the skills you listed.

bottom line is - PvE mobs (in HM anyway) have ridiculous casting times, energy pools, HP, and attribute point allocations. it only makes sense to give players a few tools to help combat the overwhelming odds against them.

and for the record, I am talking about PUGs only - i realize that an organized group of guildies or w/e can tackle HM easily, but i'm talking about the average GW player who would be missing out on essential parts/areas of the game. this is the main reason i've quit other MMO's, because certain areas of the game were just TOO elite.

Tyla · Jan 13, 2009, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

More recently, on the face of things, Cryway seemed to suddenly be taking over and crushing all elite areas - with all speed records slowly being claimed by cryway teams, guru claiming pugs and inexperiened people were shitting over the achievements of elitists who swore by a "superior" SY-dependant physicalway.

I found this funny.

1. Where did anybody who's talking in a decent manner bring up achievements? It's the fact that areas that are known as "elite" become as easy as pre-searing because of several skills and items.

2. A heavy physical party isn't "dependant" on "Save Yourselves!", as it just needs someone subbing out - it's physical, not SYway or something. Cryway, on the other hand, has Cry took out and it's absolute crap. Note: This was not an argument about Cry vs. Physical, I'm merely stating that it's pretty stupid saying that a balanced build, with a certain layer of defense that it's "dependant" on to be successful. It's a balanced build, which means it doesn't rely on a single skill or mechanic to work.

Quote:

PvE isn't meant to be entirely balanced - why else would skills be PvE only?

Because ANet are so bad at implimenting things that they have to completely abolish it or go against the main design from a full gametype to be a nerf candidate?

Sure, PvE isn't meant to be entirely balanced, but does that mean you should get "iwin!" buttons?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Herbalife

I said instead of nerfing them just remove them.

You completely missed my point.

Powering something down is in no way comparable to removing it from the game. Just because they are failing to power something down on numerous occasions doesn't mean they should just remove it, it means they're slipping up.

Believe it or not, saying "instead of X just Y" is in a way, comparison. Hit someone or shoot them in the head? Compare, one is less drastic and the other is just on the top of the scale for stupidity. Nerf it or delete it? Nerfing is less drastic than a deletion.

R.Shayne · Jan 13, 2009, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Read through the OP and several pages and all I am seeing is "QQ - I want my holy trinity back."

You Nerf Assassin (so you can get into UW Groups).
You Nerf Paragon (so you can get into Anguish).
You Nerf Mesmer (so you can get into Slaver's).

You people complained about Ursan Blessing until it was nerfed into oblivion. The farmers adapted (within hours of the nerf going live), the casual players suffered, and you accomplished nothing.

The only thing these nerfs would accomplished is keeping the casual player from getting anything nice which results in a unhappy customer. ANET might wish to keep their casual players happy since they are the majority of players (meaning we are the minority).

Instead of driving ANET customer away how about,

Find a PvE guild that runs a balance team.
Get a second account - 1 Player 6 heroes

Tyla · Jan 13, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Read through the OP and several pages and all I am seeing is "QQ - I want my holy trinity back."

Holy trinity is Tank 'N' Spank. Tank 'N' Spank is bad, and should be nerfed solely because of the fact that it's immensely easy to do - tank grab aggro, monks mash heals, eles mash aoe, hey luk i can do eet wit no braine!

Quote:

You people complained about Ursan Blessing until it was nerfed into oblivion. The farmers adapted (within hours of the nerf going live), the casual players suffered, and you accomplished nothing.

The only casual player who would grind to r10 before actually being able to play the game (the game for a skill which goes against 3 principals of the game), would be a casual player who isn't casual.

Quote:

Instead of driving ANET customer away how about,

Find a PvE guild that runs a balance team.
Get a second account - 1 Player 6 heroes

One is basically impossible because of major imbalances which allow gimmicks to dominate, the other goes against one of the things mentioned in this suggestion. Try again.

Athrun Feya · Jan 13, 2009, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I found this funny.
A heavy physical party isn't "dependant" on "Save Yourselves!", as it just needs someone subbing out - it's physical, not SYway or something. Cryway, on the other hand, has Cry took out and it's absolute crap.

I know my posts are slightly longer than what you're capable of reading Tyla, but I did go on to explain that both SY and CoP has suitable alturnatives. "CoP could easily be replaced by other AoE armor ignoring damage (RoJ, FoC, E-Surge - just to name a few)". I know it's hard for you to comment sensibly on the matter because of your lack of experience using caster-based builds (a lack of experience which you've quite effectively shown in many similar debates around guru).

The idea behind the post was explaining that guru grief about cryway is not true to its actual ingame presence - how can something be deemed so gimmicky when there is only proof of a few people doing so well with it. Another point I made was that if CoP was an "insta-win" button, then why did it take over 6 months for anyone to pay attention?

Why is "tank and spank" bad? What part of Obsidian Flesh tank + nukers made DoA easy? Anet invited us to use AoE damage and aggro control the moment they made elite mission mobs huge. Its seems illogical and stupid to kill them messily and 1 by 1, but to each their own I suppose.

Tyla · Jan 13, 2009, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

I know my posts are slightly longer than what you're capable of reading Tyla, but I did go on to explain that both SY and CoP has suitable alturnatives. "CoP could easily be replaced by other AoE armor ignoring damage (RoJ, FoC, E-Surge - just to name a few)". I know it's hard for you to comment sensibly on the matter because of your lack of experience using caster-based builds (a lack of experience which you've quite effectively shown in many similar debates around guru).

I wasn't actually provoking you (so much for commenting sensibly), and how could you call Cryway "Cryway" without Cry of Pain?

If something is dependant, it's not going to run without. Cryway won't be Cryway without Cry of Pain. Balanced will always be balanced with multiple game elements. IWAY wouldn't be called IWAY without IWAY. Spiritway wouldn't be called Spiritway if it wasn't so bent on taking advantage of additional allies and Soul Reaping. Hexway wouldn't be called Hexway without hexes, and so on. Balanced is often a lot more versatile than the above - hence not gimmicky, whereas all the others rely on a certain skill or mechanic to be effective.

Quote:

The idea behind the post was explaining that guru grief about cryway is not true to its actual ingame presence - how can something be deemed so gimmicky when there is only proof of a few people doing so well with it. Another point I made was that if CoP was an "insta-win" button, then why did it take over 6 months for anyone to pay attention?

Oh, and now who's the one who is incapable of reading? Spare me your taunts, I wish for this discussion to actually be civilised.

Quote:

It's a balanced build, which means it doesn't rely on a single skill or mechanic to work.

Or to elaborate on that, a gimmick build will rely on minimum areas of mechanics and skills, whereas a balanced build will rely on a multiple amount of skills and mechanics.

Quote:

Why is "tank and spank" bad? What part of Obsidian Flesh tank + nukers made DoA easy? Anet invited us to use AoE damage and aggro control the moment they made elite mission mobs huge. Its seems illogical and stupid to kill them messily and 1 by 1, but to each their own I suppose.

Tank 'N' Spank, outside of Cryway is absolutely terrible in comparison to other means - hence, bad. DoA is easy so long as you know what you're doing. Killing things 1-by-1 is showing that you don't know how to take advantage of enemy positioning and skills that inherit possible AoE damage on a physical the same way I apparently don't know how caster groups operate - Splinter Weapon, Crude Swing and all that other crap - I don't feel like elaborating that because I shouldn't have to.

Inra · Jan 13, 2009, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Read through the OP and several pages and all I am seeing is "QQ - I want my holy trinity back."

Well said. Even without all those god-like skills PVE still won't be balanced (at least not for all). There always would be 'the best' build for each area and majority of players would use this build (if your character's class would be different from classes in this build then you won't be able to participate in such mission even if you're pro in playing your class). Like old Oro-farm - be monk, warrior, necro, ele or get lost.

I think that making monster skill bar more variable and enemy group more class-random (five doylaks in HM) would make elite missions & HM bit more challenging (until then there always would be build against each area).