Curse

Arkantos · Jan 04, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

As we all know, there are many things in PvE that are used to create insanely overpowerful builds that are able to roll through elite areas/hard mode in a very fast time. There are many arguments within the community on what to do with these things. Many people want them nerfed/balanced, many people want them the same. As a player since 2005, I find it ridiculous that ANet allowed such things to be added to the game. Hard mode is supposed to be a challenge, elite areas are supposed to be a challenge. However, these overpowered builds throw any challenge out the window.

Here are some of the things I'd like to see changed. This thread is to discuss the changes of skills/consumables. If you want to argue about whether the skills/consumables should be changed or not, how the skills aren't overpowered, etc, do not argue about it in this thread.

I'll start off with the three most powerful skills being used in PvE - shadow form, save yourselves, and cry of pain.

First off, shadow form. Makes you invincible, and can be easily kept up indefinitely. Mainly used to tank mobs without taking any damage. In my opinion, this should not be an option. It throws all strategy for protting/holding aggro out the window. This is what I'd like to see done to it.

Currently:

10e/1c/45r

Elite Enchantment Spell. For (5..21) seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss, but you deal 33% less damage. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but (5..50) Health.

My change:

15e/2c/45r

Elite Enchantment Spell. Lose your curent stance. For (5..25) seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but (5..50) Health and all enchantments.

My first change was the energy and casting time. Both are fairly minor. The duration has been made slightly longer, but even with an enchantment mod, it cannot be maintained the old way.

My next change makes it so you cannot use deadly paradox to shorten the recharge, which was one of the things that made this enchantment maintainable. With glyph of swiftness, the skill recharges in ~34 seconds, which is quite fair.

I removed the deal less damage, which means you can go back to farming bosses easier.

I also added the lose all enchantments, to make it so you cannot prot your teammate who is about to lose shadow form.

Overall this change makes it impossible to maintain it the old way, and (hopefully) makes it impossible to maintain it with arcane echo. It also makes it harder to run with shadow form, but still possible. The skill is still a powerful farming skill, it just cannot be maintained.

Next up, the skill used in just about every 'balanced' party, "save yourselves!".

Currently:

8a

For (4..6) seconds, all other party members gain +100 armor.

My change:

5e/8a/3r

For (3..5) seconds, all other party members gain +(3..5) armor for each rank in Strength.

I've added a 5 energy cost to make it harder for a warrior to spam. I also added a 3 second recharge. I put this in place to stop warriors from instantly charging save yourselves with FGJ + dragon slash. They can still instantly charge it, but they'll have to wait 3 seconds, which means 2 things: it makes it harder to maintain, and if you do wait 3 seconds, you'll be losing damage output while FGJ is not active.

I've also changed the way your party gains additional armor - it's based on your primary attribute (just like "there's nothing to fear!" and critical agility). On a standard 2 attribute bar, this skill will give party members an additional 39-65 armor.

Overall this change makes it much harder to maintain (if it's even maintainable), only warriors can effectively use it, and it gives less armor. An additional 65 armor is a lot less powerful than an additional 100, but still powerful enough to see usage.

Now, the skill that makes rolling through elite areas a breeze and the backbone of the arguably biggest gimmick in PvE right now - cry of pain.

Currently:

10e/.25c/12r

Spell. Interrupt target foe's skill. If that foe was suffering from a Mesmer Hex, that foe and all foes in the area take (65..100) damage.

My change:

10e/.25c/15r

Spell. Interrupt target foe's skill. If that foe was suffering from a Mesmer Hex and you interrupted a spell, that foe and all foes in the area take (10..15) damage for each 2 ranks in Fast Casting.

I've increased the recharge time to make this skill less spammable.

Currently your foe only needs to have a mesmer hex on it to do the damage. With my change, your foe needs to have a mesmer hex and you need to interrupt your foes spell. This makes it so only 1 cry of pain can be cast on a single target - making it harder to spike. This change makes it so you need coordination to cast more than 1 cry of pain at once. Since only one enemy can be damaged by cry of pain, you and your teammate(s) will have to target different enemies.

I've also changed the damage. Much like my change for save yourselves, it requires your primary attribute, making it only effective on mesmers. At 10 fast casting (which is a fair amount), this skill does 50-75 AoE damage. At 16 fast casting this skill does 20 more damage than it currently does, but it requires you to waste health and attribute points.

Overall my change makes it less spammable, and impossible to cleanly spike a target foe with. However, like my previous two suggestions, it's still powerful. This skill was meant to be a more powerful cry of frustration, and with my changes, it still will be.

The next thing I would like to see changed is the necromancer. Currently people can roll through hard mode areas/missions easily with necro heroes. These builds do not in any way encourage playing with other players. In fact, these builds encourage you to play alone/with 1 person. I like that you have the option to play solo in Guild Wars, but when playing solo is more effective than playing with others, there's a problem. After all, Guild Wars is an online game.

Currently, the necromancer builds in PvE are balanced fine. But it's not the skills that are a problem, it's soul reaping. Necromancers have the best energy management in PvE. As long as things are dying, Necromancers have an insane amount of energy management, making it very easy for them to spam their skills.

Currently: For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. You may only gain Energy in this way 3 times every 15 seconds.

My change:

For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a creature near you dies. You gain half of that energy when a spirit or minion dies. Your energy gain is divided by the number of necromancers in the party.

My change is a very simple change - remove the cap on how much energy a necromancer can gain, allow your necromancers to gain half energy from spirits and minions, but for each necromancer in the party, you get less energy.

My change makes solo necromancers more powerful, yes. But with such a powerful change to this common build, there's not much harm done. With 2 necromancers in your party, their energy gain is cut in half, but they still have good energy management. But once your party hits 3 necromancers (which is common for those who h/h), their energy management becomes quite poor.

Necromancers will still be a very powerful class in PvE, but you will no longer be able to effectively run more than 2 in a party.

Last on my list are consumables. With all 3 up, these are the bonuses your party gets:

- immunity to 50% of critical hits
- +10 armor
- +1 health regeneration
- 5 damage reduction
- 20% faster movement
- 20% faster attack speed
- 20% reduced recharge times
- +100 health
- +10 energy
- +1 attributes

Having all these bonuses together is clearly way too powerful. Having them on their own are still powerful. Now, there's no way I can see individually changing the consumables, so my suggestion is simple. Limit one or two consumables to be used at a time. They are still powerful, but all three cannot be used together.

That is all that is currently on my list. The reason I am making these suggestions is not only to promote team play, but to promote team work, strategy, and coordination. With these changes, elite areas and hard mode is going to be more of a challenge - just like they should be.

Feel free to constructively comment on my suggestions, and feel free to make suggestions. Remember, this is a thread to discuss changing skills and consumables, and only to discuss changing these skills and consumables. Don't go off topic.

Also, I'd like to thank Fenix for reading through and pointing out a few text errors. <3

Thank you for taking the time to read and comment.

Whenitrainsitpours · Jan 04, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Oh, so this is a "Let's kill PvE" thread...I see...I see....

Oh wait...it's already dead except for those gimmick team builds.

Let's also kill warrior's ability to PvE even though they're not accepted into FoW/UWSC PuGs unless with guildies/allies.

As for consumable sets, they're fine. You pay 6.5k-7k for the effects for a half hour. It's not overpowered, it's just smart.

Let's also kill necromancers even though they're already capped on Soul Reaping.

Also, the reason why people prefer to play solo with heroes instead of other people is because, face it, most players aren't competent enough to play with. They either complain or are plain bad. Heroes don't complain and most of the time aren't bad. That's the reason GW isn't dead yet, people aren't forced to play with terribads.

As for Shadow Form, yeah, the nerf was coming, it's easily the most exploited skill in all of GW and discourages the use of other types of tanks such as Terra tanks and Obsidian Tanks.

Arkantos · Jan 04, 2009, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Oh, so this is a "Let's kill PvE" thread...I see...I see....

Oh wait...it's already dead except for those gimmick team builds.

If by "kill PvE" you mean "Kill overpowered gimmicks to promote team work, strategy and coordination", then yes.

You're right, PvE is dead. Do you think these gimmicks are helping it?

As it is, there's no point in running balanced builds when everyone else is running overpowered gimmicks. People run these gimmicks which take no skill, farm the same thing over and over, get money, buy expensive stuff, get bored. Now everyone's farming the same areas with the same builds so they can buy the same expensive gear.

People are getting bored fast because they don't understand that rolling through areas with no challenge isn't fun. A game without challenge is a boring game. But they'll never know until they try running a balanced build and play in challenging areas. But oh wait, these people are so used to these mindless gimmick builds that they can't effectively play balanced anymore. Now we have idiots running around in FoW, chaos gloves, expensive weapons, ectos, who are bored of doing the same shit, but cannot play regularly. That's what the majority of the PvE community now is. Great, isn't it?

Quote:

Let's also kill warrior's ability to PvE even though they're not accepted into FoW/UWSC PuGs unless with guildies/allies.

If you think a warrior needs save yourselves to be effective in PvE, you're just one of the many ignorant people who play with bad players and rely on overpowered skills. Play with players who have some skill, you'll see how the overpowered skills everyone is running aren't needed.

Quote:

As for consumable sets, they're fine. You pay 6.5k-7k for the effects for a half hour. It's not overpowered, it's just smart.

Guild Wars was based on skill > time, not time > skill. Consumables were a stupid idea and shouldn't have been created. It's just a way for the players who have money to make the game easier.

Quote:

Let's also kill necromancers even though they're already capped on Soul Reaping.

My suggestion wouldn't kill necromancers. It would kill groups with multiple necromancers, but make solo necromancers stronger.

Quote:

Also, the reason why people prefer to play solo with heroes instead of other people is because, face it, most players aren't competent enough to play with. They either complain or are plain bad. Heroes don't complain and most of the time aren't bad. That's the reason GW isn't dead yet, people aren't forced to play with terribads.

You're right, many people do play with h/h because most players are bad. But I'm not talking about playing with bad players. I'm talking about how bringing 3 necromancer heroes is going to be more effective than bringing a skilled human player. Do you really think heroes should be more effective than skilled players?

Xsiriss · Jan 04, 2009, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whenitrainsitpours

Oh, so this is a "Let's kill PvE" thread...I see...I see....

Oh wait...it's already dead except for those gimmick team builds.

Let's also kill warrior's ability to PvE even though they're not accepted into FoW/UWSC PuGs unless with guildies/allies.

As for consumable sets, they're fine. You pay 6.5k-7k for the effects for a half hour. It's not overpowered, it's just smart.

Let's also kill necromancers even though they're already capped on Soul Reaping.

Also, the reason why people prefer to play solo with heroes instead of other people is because, face it, most players aren't competent enough to play with. They either complain or are plain bad. Heroes don't complain and most of the time aren't bad. That's the reason GW isn't dead yet, people aren't forced to play with terribads.

Exactly. Leave the only builds that allow players to do HM with h/h, instead of complaining adapt. PUG's are dead, leave it at that. I wouldn't mind these 'changes' if they allowed 7 heroes, which would allow better teamwork etc. so it wouldn't be much of a problem. However without sabway there are many a thing people couldn't do in NM let alone HM, eg Slaver's Exile.

kostolomac · Jan 04, 2009, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Nice one Arkantos. Can I post my thoughts too?
Shadow Form: same duration before the nerf , but it becomes a stance so it can't be kept up 24/7 and instead of losing health your skills are disabled. It can become one of those "Oh Shi!" skills for running away.

"Save Yourselves!": same duration , recharge , adrenaline cost. But only works on allies with hp lower than 50%. It would still be a powerful skill in case something doesn't go completely as planned , but it isn't as mindless and easy to use as it is now.

Cry of Pain: I agree completely with you on that one. But with the cast speed increase in HM it would be much more harder to use it than intented.

My suggestion: limit the number of identical pve skills a team can have to 3. Goodbye cryway even without the change and this would stop many other degenerate builds.

Quote:

Let's also kill warrior's ability to PvE even though they're not accepted into FoW/UWSC PuGs unless with guildies/allies.

Do you even play warrior? Earth shaker , dragon slash spam , even the regular eviscerate bar are WTF!?PWN.

Quote:

Let's also kill necromancers even though they're already capped on Soul Reaping.

Soul Reaping is extremely powerful now. Arkantos' change only tones it down , and rewards those necromancers that kill shit instead of minions.

All in all /signed.

Daisuko · Jan 04, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Exactly. Leave the only builds that allow players to do HM with h/h, instead of complaining adapt. PUG's are dead, leave it at that. I wouldn't mind these 'changes' if they allowed 7 heroes, which would allow better teamwork etc. so it wouldn't be much of a problem. However without sabway there are many a thing people couldn't do in NM let alone HM, eg Slaver's Exile.

Hahaaaa, oh yes, because sabway > all. Please. I easily beat Slaver's exile in NM on my ranger, hero/hench with a monk, rit, and minion master hero as my heroes. Note the 1 necro in the party. I also beat it in hard mode with 2 players/6 heroes, still one necro. You don't need shittons of necros.

Arkantos · Jan 04, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Exactly. Leave the only builds that allow players to do HM with h/h, instead of complaining adapt. PUG's are dead, leave it at that. I wouldn't mind these 'changes' if they allowed 7 heroes, which would allow better teamwork etc. so it wouldn't be much of a problem. However without sabway there are many a thing people couldn't do in NM let alone HM, eg Slaver's Exile.

That's one of the problems. People are so dependable on overpowered builds that they don't think regular builds can get the job done. Hard mode is supposed to be hard, and when you roll through it easily with artificial intelligence, then there's a problem.

If there were less gimmick builds, people would be playing balanced builds. People get better at the game when running balanced builds, as long as they know game mechanics and can learn from mistakes. With gimmick builds they don't get better at all. They get used to gimmick builds and forget simple things in balanced builds.

Do you know why the majority of people are bad? Do you know why there are almost no good balanced PvE guilds anymore? Because people began running these overpowered skills, made overpowered gimmick builds, and just played that. They're so used to mindlessly going through PvE that when there's an actual challenge, they have no clue what to do and usually fail.

Pugs have never been perfect, but since NF/PvE skills pugs have gone downhill, fast. Now pugs are absolutely horrible. If ANet did something about this back in NF, pugs would still be a viable option. That's no longer possible.

You say you can't do NM Slavers' h/h without an overpowered gimmick. This only proves that gimmicks are making the PvE players worse. NM Slavers' is possible without a gimmick build, you just need to be a skilled player. It is an elite area after all.

Quote:

"Save Yourselves!": same duration , recharge , adrenaline cost. But only works on allies with hp lower than 50%. It would still be a powerful skill in case something doesn't go completely as planned , but it's as mindless and easy to use.

If it were to stay at +100 armor, I'd say below 25% health. That way it's used as an emergency +armor for an ally.

Quote:

Cry of Pain: I agree completely with you on that one. But with the cast speed increase in HM it would be much more harder to use it than intented.

Yes, it does get harder to use in hard mode. But there's nothing wrong with that, hard mode is supposed to be harder than normal mode.

Quote:

My suggestion: limit the number of identical pve skills a team can have to 3. Goodbye cryway even without the change and this would stop many other degenerate builds.

I'd love to see this.

zelgadissan · Jan 04, 2009, 03:29 PM // 15:29

This is pretty much the best post to ever hit Sardelac. Your ideas get rid of retarded gimmicks, and fixes them in a sensible and usable fashion. Well, Shadow Form might not get used, but who cares.

If there was still challenge in the game for elite areas, or HM, just anything in general, either people would play it for the challenge or the crappy people would leave - both are fine by me. People claim that PvE is dead - I claim that things like this are why. I was about to explain why, but Arky just did right above me in the response to Xsiriss.

WTB Arky for skill balancer (and kostolomac's 3 copy idea)

Arkantos · Jan 04, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

This is pretty much the best post to ever hit Sardelac. Your ideas get rid of retarded gimmicks, and fixes them in a sensible and usable fashion. Well, Shadow Form might not get used, but who cares.

That's exactly what I was aiming for. These skills should not remain in their current state, but killing them would mean ANet wasted their time for nothing.

As for shadow form, it will still be used to farm bosses and run (just like before the big buff).

silavor · Jan 04, 2009, 03:55 PM // 15:55

I agree whole-heartedly with just about everything, but why does CoP require a hex at all? Would it not be fine to say that target foe and all nearby foes take X damage upon interrupting?

Arkantos · Jan 04, 2009, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by silavor

I agree whole-heartedly with just about everything, but why does CoP require a hex at all? Would it not be fine to say that target foe and all nearby foes take X damage upon interrupting?

I just kept it in there because almost all mesmers already have at least one mesmer hex. Removing the hex function wouldn't make much of a difference.

Whenitrainsitpours · Jan 04, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

If by "kill PvE" you mean "Kill overpowered gimmicks to promote team work, strategy and coordination", then yes.

Quote:

Because PvE actually required what PvP requires? Since when?

You're right, PvE is dead. Do you think these gimmicks are helping it?

Do you think without gimmicks, PvE would come back to life? I hope you're joking.

Quote:

As it is, there's no point in running balanced builds when everyone else is running overpowered gimmicks. People run these gimmicks which take no skill, farm the same thing over and over, get money, buy expensive stuff, get bored. Now everyone's farming the same areas with the same builds so they can buy the same expensive gear.

People are getting bored fast because they don't understand that rolling through areas with no challenge isn't fun. A game without challenge is a boring game. But they'll never know until they try running a balanced build and play in challenging areas. But oh wait, these people are so used to these mindless gimmick builds that they can't effectively play balanced anymore. Now we have idiots running around in FoW, chaos gloves, expensive weapons, ectos, who are bored of doing the same shit, but cannot play regularly. That's what the majority of the PvE community now is. Great, isn't it?

Cause there ever was a community aside from UWSC/FoW/Cryway in PvE.

Quote:

If you think a warrior needs save yourselves to be effective in PvE, you're just one of the many ignorant people who play with bad players and rely on overpowered skills. Play with players who have some skill, you'll see how the overpowered skills everyone is running aren't needed.

When was the last time you saw a warrior get accepted into a FoW PuG or UWSC without having to tank? Never? Save Yourselves is the strongest PvE skill on a warrior.

Quote:

Guild Wars was based on skill > time, not time > skill. Consumables were a stupid idea and shouldn't have been created. It's just a way for the players who have money to make the game easier.

As well as making the game easier, it's also making the game more fun rather than a struggle. It's not like you're forced to use them, am I right?

Quote:

My suggestion wouldn't kill necromancers. It would kill groups with multiple necromancers, but make solo necromancers stronger.

So, if you're limiting the amount of necromancers to 2 per group, people will just run 2 Necromancer/Rit or 2 Necromancer/Monk combinations. That was hard to think off, am I right?

Quote:

You're right, many people do play with h/h because most players are bad. But I'm not talking about playing with bad players. I'm talking about how bringing 3 necromancer heroes is going to be more effective than bringing a skilled human player. Do you really think heroes should be more effective than skilled players?

Not many skilled players PuG, therefore heroes are better than bad players.

Whenitrainsitpours · Jan 04, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Do you even play warrior? Earth shaker , dragon slash spam , even the regular eviscerate bar are WTF!?PWN.

Most people in the game don't know what a hammer warrior can do. People run Dragon Slash to fuel Save Yourselves. And you just said eviscerate was good in PvE, stop talking.

A WE bar with Dismember will out-DPS an Eviscerate bar any day of the week.

Grj · Jan 04, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

So the main complaint is, that these skills/builds/professions are killing the game and stopping people using builds that the small minority deem skillfull and constantly making attempts to make the playerbase form to their thinking?

This game can never be 100% about individual skill, when you make up 1/8th of the total party.

Rainen_Fyre · Jan 04, 2009, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Give me a Break! This is just another QQ session about how Elite areas aren't Elite. Lets face it, people will find the fastest and most efficient way of doing something until it is nerfed. Then when it is nerfed they will find the next fastest way of doing the area and exploit it as well.
I have an idea, lets just give everyone 3 skills, Attack, Heal & Resurrect. Then you would never have to worry about over powered skills ever again and it will all be fair for everyone and we can live happily beyond the rainbows with peace and understanding for all............. granted no one would ever play the game.
SHEESH.... quit whining if Anet believes a skill or erea is being over farmed they have and will again change the skills to make it more of a challenge and to "Balance" the PVE.
I remember when a Sin could not get in a group, my main character is a Sin so being able to get in PUG is kinda fun for me since I have had to play most of the game with henchies and heros.
Oh and by the way this is not Trolling, Im just sick of seeing crybaby threads about how Shadow Form is so overpowered. It's discusting really.

kostolomac · Jan 04, 2009, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whenitrainsitpours

When was the last time you saw a warrior get accepted into a FoW PuG or UWSC without having to tank? Never? Save Yourselves is the strongest PvE skill on a warrior.

Most people in pugs are idiots.

DarkNecrid · Jan 04, 2009, 04:08 PM // 16:08

It's like Arkantos walked up to my door and gave me a million dollars, that's basically how this topic makes me feel.

/signed for all eternity.

Whenitrainsitpours · Jan 04, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Most people in pugs are idiots.

^ This is the reason people h/h over PuG.

Crom The Pale · Jan 04, 2009, 04:11 PM // 16:11

The problem with PvE isn't the skills, its the players. Always have been and always will be.

Taking away one gimmic just sets them off looking for the next gimmic build to run. It doesn't make them take the time to become better players or learn how to work with a team.

One of the largest factors about GW is that it is a Team game, this means you need to spend some time setting up not just your build but your parties as well. The gimmic builds allow players to very quickly adapt a "plug and play" mentality so they can set up a team and go almost instantly.

Changing skills at this point will have little or no effect upon GW. The mentality of the players is fixed in stone and that can NOT be shifted by a few skill tweeks.

Arkantos · Jan 04, 2009, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Do you think without gimmicks, PvE would come back to life? I hope you're joking.

No, it's way too late for that. Doesn't mean there's no point to change it, though.

Quote:

When was the last time you saw a warrior get accepted into a FoW PuG or UWSC without having to tank? Never? Save Yourselves is the strongest PvE skill on a warrior.

When did I say anything about FoW/UWSC? Yes, save yourselves is the strongest PvE skill on a warrior, but you don't need it to be effective. Besides, you're acting like my suggestion is going to kill save yourselves.

Quote:

As well as making the game easier, it's also making the game more fun rather than a struggle. It's not like you're forced to use them, am I right?

You are right. It doesn't mean they're not overpowered, and it doesn't mean they shouldn't get changed.

Quote:

So, if you're limiting the amount of necromancers to 2 per group, people will just run 2 Necromancer/Rit or 2 Necromancer/Monk combinations. That was hard to think off, am I right?

Is that as powerful as 3+ necromancers? No? Am I suggesting that necromancers need to be toned down in PvE? Yes?

Well then, I think you're smart enought o put one and one together.

Quote:

Not many skilled players PuG, therefore heroes are better than bad players.

Did you read what you quoted here, good sir?

Notice how I never said 'PuG', but 'skilled player'.

Quote:

Give me a Break! This is just another QQ session about how Elite areas aren't Elite. Lets face it, people will find the fastest and most efficient way of doing something until it is nerfed. Then when it is nerfed they will find the next fastest way of doing the area and exploit it as well.
I have an idea, lets just give everyone 3 skills, Attack, Heal & Resurrect. Then you would never have to worry about over powered skills ever again and it will all be fair for everyone and we can live happily beyond the rainbows with peace and understanding for all............. granted no one would ever play the game.
SHEESH.... quit whining if Anet believes a skill or erea is being over farmed they have and will again change the skills to make it more of a challenge and to "Balance" the PVE.
I remember when a Sin could not get in a group, my main character is a Sin so being able to get in PUG is kinda fun for me since I have had to play most of the game with henchies and heros.
Oh and by the way this is not Trolling, Im just sick of seeing crybaby threads about how Shadow Form is so overpowered. It's discusting really.

QQing? Whining? Crybaby? Please, show me where I'm QQing, show me where I'm whining. I'll give you a constructive reply when you learn the difference between QQing and constructive suggestions.