Curse

Ariena Najea · Jun 27, 2009, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Before I address my main point, I am fully aware that all Missions and Bounties received substantial increases for the coin rewards. This is not about that change.

Compare the Zaishen Coin rewards for Thunderhead Keep and Fort Ranik. In normal mode, completing the mission and bonus for THK will earn the player 75 copper coins. Fort Ranik will earn the player 37 coins. This makes sense, since although the missions do not vary much in length, Thunderhead Keep is substantially more difficult due to the higher level foes. This is good implementation.

Now compare the same two quests, but look at the Hard Mode rewards. For THK, completing the mission and bonus in HM will earn the player 150 copper coins. Fort Ranik will earn the player only 74 coins. This is approximately the same ratio as above, but the challenge has not increased in this same ratio. Consider a level 20 party tackling Fort Ranik in NM, and then in HM. Obviously, the party would roll NM, but would find HM far more challenging, as opposed to Thunderhead Keep, where the difference in NM and HM is not as defined.

Early Zaishen Missions do not give enough coins for completion in HM for the work they entail, in comparison to later missions. I propose that the coin rewards are changed to better reflect the increase of difficulty between NM and HM missions. While appropriate for the top-tier missions, early to mid-game missions deserve a boost.

Example Proposed Change
Fort Ranik Zaishen Mission:

Completion (NM or HM) - 15 coins
Bonus (NM or HM) - 22 coins
Hard Mode Completion - 113 coins

Only the HM reward is changed, from 37 to 113 coins, which nets the same total reward for this mission as a high-end mission when in HM. This is a substantial increase, however, as judging by the tiered regional system of coin rewards, these rewards are intended to be given based upon difficulty, rather than time spent. With this in mind, this increase makes sense, seeing as how all HM missions can be considered within the same "tier" of difficulty.

My preposition - Change all HM coin rewards such that:
HM completion coins = 150 coins - (General Completion coins) - (Bonus Objective coins)

Lord Of Blame · Jun 27, 2009, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Take a look at these two challenges that came up...

2009-06-22
Mission: Iron Mines of Moladune 150 coins
Bount: Zoldark the Unholy 140 coins

2009-06-25
Mission: Arborstone 150 coins
Bounty: Frostmaw the Kinslayer 140 coins

Those two bosses are considerably more difficult to get to and kill than the missions, yet their coin value is lower. I still haven't figured this one out.

I agree the zcoin values are not quite what they should be.

Ariena Najea · Jun 27, 2009, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Of Blame

Take a look at these two challenges that came up...

2009-06-22
Mission: Iron Mines of Moladune 150 coins
Bount: Zoldark the Unholy 140 coins

2009-06-25
Mission: Arborstone 150 coins
Bounty: Frostmaw the Kinslayer 140 coins

Those two bosses are considerably more difficult to get to and kill than the missions, yet their coin value is lower. I still haven't figured this one out.

I agree the zcoin values are not quite what they should be.

The Bounties are also somewhat off, but not to the extent I believe of the Missions. Also consider that the EoTN Dungeon Bounties also give a good deal of title points, as well as have better rewards due to the end chest, hidden treasures, etc.

zelgadissan · Jun 27, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

HM rewards could definitely use a bump up, especially in 4 or 6 man areas.

That said, don't forget about some places like Chahbek Village, or missions that are actually made easier in HM like Imperial Sanctum. If either of those aren't done in less than three minutes, you're doing something wrong.

Basically what I'm saying is that a set equation wouldn't quite cut it.

Arghore · Jun 27, 2009, 05:56 PM // 17:56

In relation to rewards given for zaishen,
If i have only a couple of hours to spend on GW a week, and i dont have HM on a certain campain, that happens to have a zaishen mission or bounty (when i do get round to playing) i can perhaps make about 70 to 90 coins, giving me a drink or 2-3sparkles/bottle rockets ...

Ariena Najea · Jun 27, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

HM rewards could definitely use a bump up, especially in 4 or 6 man areas.

That said, don't forget about some places like Chahbek Village, or missions that are actually made easier in HM like Imperial Sanctum. If either of those aren't done in less than three minutes, you're doing something wrong.

Basically what I'm saying is that a set equation wouldn't quite cut it.

Tihark Orchard, and perhaps Augury Rock by profession, come to mind as well, but these missions are a minority. My focus is to fix the general template they are using, as opposed to fixing each individually. Obviously, not all missions by region are comparable, such as Raisu Palace and Imperial Sanctum as you mentioned. The problem with coming up with separate coin rewards for each mission that varies from the median of the region is that individually they are difficult to gauge. The few select missions that do not follow the general curve do not present a significant problem, as there are 58 missions (not counting EoTN primaries) and these select missions represent less than 10% of the total number of missions. As I recognize them, all missions which are not in the highest tier require a HM coin buff, which means the majority of the missions falls into this category.

I do agree with you, I just think the work involved is not worth ANet's time to go through each mission individually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

In relation to rewards given for zaishen,
If i have only a couple of hours to spend on GW a week, and i dont have HM on a certain campain, that happens to have a zaishen mission or bounty (when i do get round to playing) i can perhaps make about 70 to 90 coins, giving me a drink or 2-3sparkles/bottle rockets ...

I agree that the rewards are not geared towards casual players. The only items "worth getting" are the equipment packs, which require a significant time investment for only a small return. With the advent of Mercantile Summoning Stones, having sufficient inventory space is not as big of an issue as it has been since 2005. Other than adjusting the existing exchange rates, there is nothing that needs to be done to renovate the rewards.

Something you may consider is making a niche market of hard to obtain and unique items offered by the coin collectors. Flames of Balthazar are somewhat popular items that can only be otherwise obtained through the Hall of Heroes chest, and Zaishen Tonics can only be obtained through coins. These are unique, along with the Halloween and Yuletide tonics, in that they can be used in explorable areas. Since most players obtaining coins are working towards their equipment pack, these items are rare and you may profit from that.

Helix Dreadlock · Jun 27, 2009, 07:11 PM // 19:11

/signed

Why else not? lol

wetwillyhip · Jun 27, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

agreed, i'd like some high rewards in general on all things we do.... not too much of an incentive to just quest around for the hell of it.

**Marty Silverblade** · Jun 27, 2009, 10:40 PM // 22:40

I'll definately /sign this. Even though the early missions are seen as easy, the difficulty is balanced like other HM missions. Tbh, Ranik has a lot of hex/degen pressure at the start and the bonus requires you to keep the dude alive, so surviving the start is actually quite challenging, compared to THK which I did yesterday and wasn't all that hard.

Owik Gall · Jun 27, 2009, 10:42 PM // 22:42

I think the reason why Anet hesitated on increasing rewards in some areas is because of the possibilities of someone, or some team that will fly through the z-quest missions/bounties easily, therefore ranking up on lots of coins nearly effortlessly. Some of these missions, or bounties are hard for some of us, but to others, like CoF runners and perma sins, they are pretty easy. Especially if they use the right strategy for each of the z-quest missions/bounties. Just think if there was a z-quest bounty in Cathedral of Flames. How do you all think Anet will judge on the rewards if they were aware of players that can complete the whole dungeon quest easily?

I saw another thread in Guru about someone complaining of a bogroot spawn of 10 monks and she can't complete the dungeon run because that was too difficult for her to overcome. Now considering that she dealt with 10 monks it's understandable. However, many posted that they flew through that part of the dungeon decently, if not easily. The posters who said they did it shared their tactics in the thread.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10383973

That right there is a major example of when most of us have a real hard time with some of the z-quests, there are others whose experiences are a contradiction.

My idea is that we should compare each player's run on the same specific z-quests and see if there is a difference in how difficult the z-quest was for each player. We should even compare the OPs z-quests and see how others handled it. If there is just one mark of a possibility that those z-quests could be completed easily, that may have well affected the rewards of the quest.

We should realize that Anet could look up into each area the z-quests are based on and check for any possibilities that a tanking sin, or a 55 monk can complete the objectives easily. Without a scratch.

Owik Gall · Jun 27, 2009, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

I'll definately /sign this. Even though the early missions are seen as easy, the difficulty is balanced like other HM missions. Tbh, Ranik has a lot of hex/degen pressure at the start and the bonus requires you to keep the dude alive, so surviving the start is actually quite challenging, compared to THK which I did yesterday and wasn't all that hard.

If you're talking about the soldier who gives you the bonus, then you are mistaken, buddy. You don't have to make sure he lives. I've done that mission for the z-quest before and completed the bonus anyways. Regardless of the soldier getting killed. I just remembered that I have to talk his son after killing the two Charr healers (which didn't take long to do) and that was the objective. That's another example for what I just posted earlier.

MithranArkanere · Jun 28, 2009, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Rewards have set values, and are not considered one by one.

Tihark orchard is a joke, but has the same reward as Dzanogur or Adalhshim.

The ranks are like this:

Missions
- Starter area (Ascalon-Norther Shiverpeaks, Istan, Shing Jea)
- Middle areas. (Kryta, Maguuma, Cristal Desert, Kaineng, Kourna)
- High-end areas. (Souther Shiverpeaks, Vabbi, Desolation, Echovald, Jade Sea)
- Ending areas. (Fire Islands, Torment, Imperial Palace)

Bounties
- Normal boss.
- Boss-like creature or Dungeon boss.
- Elite area boss.

All bounties with the same 'rank' will get the same reward, regardless of their real difficulty.

Ariena Najea · Jun 28, 2009, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

I think the reason why Anet hesitated on increasing rewards in some areas is because of the possibilities of someone, or some team that will fly through the z-quest missions/bounties easily, therefore ranking up on lots of coins nearly effortlessly. Some of these missions, or bounties are hard for some of us, but to others, like CoF runners and perma sins, they are pretty easy. Especially if they use the right strategy for each of the z-quest missions/bounties. Just think if there was a z-quest bounty in Cathedral of Flames. How do you all think Anet will judge on the rewards if they were aware of players that can complete the whole dungeon quest easily?

Murakai has been a Bounty. Doomlore had at least twice its normal population, and it was as easy a farm as ever with 600/smite.

It sounds like you are suggestion that easily farmed dungeons/missions/etc should give fewer points than ones that are more difficult. I strongly disagree with this, since it doesn't really fix the problem. An experienced team of 8 players is likely to have a rough time in the CoF, whereas a new 600/smite duo will roll right through it. Rather than just turning away farmers, and gimmick runners, everyone will be turned away if the rewards are reduced.

Owik Gall · Jun 28, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Murakai has been a Bounty. Doomlore had at least twice its normal population, and it was as easy a farm as ever with 600/smite.

It sounds like you are suggestion that easily farmed dungeons/missions/etc should give fewer points than ones that are more difficult. I strongly disagree with this, since it doesn't really fix the problem. An experienced team of 8 players is likely to have a rough time in the CoF, whereas a new 600/smite duo will roll right through it. Rather than just turning away farmers, and gimmick runners, everyone will be turned away if the rewards are reduced.

Forgive me, but that wasn't my suggestion to lower rewards. I'd be insane if I said that. Especially when I'm saving for heavy equipment package. I was only saying the possible reasons of Anet determining our current z-quest rewards. I'm just looking at this from both sides.

And about my suggestion, it relates to what I just said. It's to see if we can find a reason why our z-quest rewards for each area is what it currently is. My thought was if we get a better understanding we can know more and do more.

Sounds good enough?

Ariena Najea · Jun 29, 2009, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

Forgive me, but that wasn't my suggestion to lower rewards. I'd be insane if I said that. Especially when I'm saving for heavy equipment package. I was only saying the possible reasons of Anet determining our current z-quest rewards. I'm just looking at this from both sides.

And about my suggestion, it relates to what I just said. It's to see if we can find a reason why our z-quest rewards for each area is what it currently is. My thought was if we get a better understanding we can know more and do more.

Sounds good enough?

For the bold, I think you are over analyzing their implementation. The rewards scale by region, increasing from the beginning to the end. I'm sure I follow you on exactly what you would do for special cases like the Cathedral of Flames, Shards of Orr, etc that can be easily farmed. Can you clarify?

More understanding is always good.

Just for kicks, I decided to see if there were any clear mathematical patterns going on in the Mission coin rewards. First, I made some quick notes:

All rewards are geographically regional, as opposed to based upon the storyline - compare rewards of Divinity Coast and Sanctum Cay
The HM reward is approximately double the sum of the standard and bonus rewards
Gold and experience do not follow the same progression as coins

The first is important, since although Sanctum Cay is farther in the game and significantly more difficult than Divinity Coast, the rewards are the same since they are both in Kryta. The second is also important, since it seems to assume that coin rewards should be given for HM completion in the same proportion no matter the difficulty of the mission. The third isn't that important, since no one really cares.

So here are some quick figures:
Region (NM, Bonus, HM) (#)
Ascalon through Gates of Kryta (15, 22, 37) (T0)
D'Alessio Seaboard through Crystal Desert (20, 30, 50) (T1)
Ice Caves of Sorrow through Ring of Fire (30, 45, 75) (T2)
Shing Jea (15, 22, 37) (C0)
Kaineng City (20, 30, 50) (C1)
Arborstone through Imperial Sanctum (30, 45, 75) (C2)
etc...

There are some interesting observations to make here. First of all, there are only three tiers of rewards. Secondly, between all three core campaigns the model is the same. Lastly, the rewards for each step increase by about 50%, and the bonus is approximately a 50% increase from the base reward.

Math time, the equation for the base reward of missions is:
r = 2.5t^2 + 2.5t + 15, where t=tier and r=reward in coins

On second thought, I should have looked at the 15,20, 30 progression and written that down without doing any work. In any case, the values are not randomly chosen.

rick1027 · Jun 30, 2009, 12:23 AM // 00:23

i actually have came to the same conclusion some need to be buffed up because the time it takes to complete is more. this is the clear reason i only except quest thaT takes a short time i weigh the quests on how long it takes to complete versus the reward