Curse

Regulus X · Jul 01, 2009, 02:05 PM // 14:05

My suggestion would be to remove shout/chant requirements and transfer this elite skill over to the Strength Line with scale to 0 seconds at 0 strength to prevent secondary abuse. This way, Warriors would have an unconditional IAS vice Frenzy. It'd make warriors more durable and would even facilitate utility (i.e.: Shock, Rend, Grasping Earth, etc..). The only prospective gain would be a warrior's durability would remain intact.

I don't see warriors using spears, bows, scythes or daggers as their energy pool and regen will not support it.

Like this idea? Are there any other [balanced] suggestions from the Community? Post them here, please. ^^

Pugs Not Drugs · Jul 01, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

That would be WAAAAAAY op. Remember [primal rage]? that had a double damage clause, and warriors could still blow things up with it before the nerf.

Picuso · Jul 01, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Unless Soldier's Stance is buffed in some way, this change won't remove the "useless skill" label it has.

Frenzy will still be used because it's a no-Elite IAS. Yes, Soldier's Stance will give some Bar Compresion, but Elite Slot only for IAS... I'm not sure if anyone will prefer to spend his elite in IAS instead of an Attack Skill or some more useful utility.

Regulus X · Jul 01, 2009, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

That would be WAAAAAAY op. Remember [primal rage]? that had a double damage clause, and warriors could still blow things up with it before the nerf.

Right, but P.Rage had "double-damage" clause for the simple fact that it also had IMS (Increased Movement Speed), which in turn boosts criticals hits and makes bulls strike more effective when foes kite. Soldier's Stance would have NO such thing. If it did have IMS (AND) conditions were removed, THEN it would be OP'd imho.

So, Frenzy w/o double damage = OP'd? Why? Give a viable descriptor, please. ^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by Picuso

Unless Soldier's Stance is buffed in some way, this change won't remove the "useless skill" label it has.

Frenzy will still be used because it's a no-Elite IAS. Yes, Soldier's Stance will give some Bar Compresion, but Elite Slot only for IAS... I'm not sure if anyone will prefer to spend his elite in IAS instead of an Attack Skill or some more useful utility.

It'd be used as a light-damage alternative to Frenzy. Damage from standard Axe Build at the cost of no double damage is a most wise choice.

MithranArkanere · Jul 01, 2009, 03:49 PM // 15:49

"Soldier's" as a part of the name means that it will have some kind of effect "Under a shout or chant".
So you absolutely CAN'T remove the 'Shout or chant' requirements completely from its usage.

Now... compare it to Soldier's Fury.

The only 'advantage' over Soldier's Fury is that it is not linked to the primary attribute, so it can be used by any profession...
But Soldier's Fury without any points in Leadership lasts longer than Soldier's Stance until Tactics 14, and it's an Echo, so can be used along other echoes and stances, while Soldier's Stance will remove other stances.

The key's are:
- Make it suck less, especially compared with Soldier's Fury.
- Keep some kind of effect under shouts or chants.

What can't be done:
- Remove completely the 'under shout or chant' from the description. A skill named "Soldier's xxxx" must have some kind of extra effect under shouts or chants.
- Change skill type. A kill named 'stance' must be a stance.

What can be done:
- Remove elite status.
- Add extra effects that do not require shout or chants.
- Other kinds of buff.

Sooo...
Possible changes?
- Remove elite status, since Warriors have one extra elite compared to other core professions.
- Give it two effects, one permanent effect that does not require shout or chant, and another extra effect that does require being under a shout or chant. For example...
* Permanent 25% IAS. 33% IAS as +5..20% chances to deal critical hits under shouts or chants.
* Permanent 33% IAS. Unblockable attacks under a shout or chant.
* Permanent 33% IAS. Attacks deal +1..5 damage for each shout or chant affecting you.
* Permanent +1...16 damage to all attacks. 33% IAS under a shout or chant.
And things like those.

Regulus X · Jul 01, 2009, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

"Soldier's" as a part of the name means that it will have some kind of effect "Under a shout or chant".
So you absolutely CAN'T remove the 'Shout or chant' requirements completely from its usage.

Now... compare it to Soldier's Fury.

The only 'advantage' over Soldier's Fury is that it is not linked to the primary attribute, so it can be used by any profession...
But Soldier's Fury without any points in Leadership lasts longer than Soldier's Stance until Tactics 14, and it's an Echo, so can be used along other echoes and stances, while Soldier's Stance will remove other stances.

Sooo...
Possible changes?
- Remove elite status, since Warriors have one extra elite compared to other core professions.
- Give it two effects, one permanent effect that does not require shout or chant, and another extra effect that does require being under a shout or chant. For example...
* Permanent 25% IAS. 33% IAS as +5..20% chances to deal critical hits under shouts or chants.
* Permanent 33% IAS. Unblockable attacks under a shout or chant.
* Permanent 33% IAS. Attacks deal +1..5 damage for each shout or chant affecting you.
* Permanent +1...16 damage to all attacks. 33% IAS under a shout or chant.
And things like those.

The key's are:
- Make it suck less, especially compared with Soldier's Fury.
- Keep some kind of effect under shouts or chants.

What can't be done:
- Remove completely the 'under shout or chant' from the description. Soldiers -> Shouts or chants.
- Change skill type. Stance -> Stance.

What can be done:
- Remove elite status.
- Add extra effects that do not require shout or chants.
- Other kinds of buff.

What you proposed is WAAAY overpowered. /notsigned

One thing you did accurately mention is that Soldier's Stance DOES have a trend with the word 'Soldier's" in that all related skills have a "chant/shout" requirement. However, Anet need not bind the same requirement to Soldier's Stance if they simply elect not to, for the sake of the game and it's fun in variety.

I say break the mold and give Soldier's Stance a non-"double damage" nature and allow a new meta to formulate.

Xsiriss · Jul 01, 2009, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I agree, buff it and move to strength. I'd be willing to give up an elite slot in PvE for a decent, maintainable IAS with other benefits. I suggest things like Mithran said, along the lines of give it a permanent IAS and other benefits. Maybe +25% IMS (15% for pvp) whilst under the effects of a shout/chant as well as 50% more adrenaline for PvE(hell it's an elite...). Then make it last 12 seconds at 14 strength.

It doesn't seem too overpowered really, as it would actually require some tactics to either maintain a shout/chant in PvP aswell as rolling the secondary profession needed. As for PvE, there aren't really any suitable stances especially for HM, as needing cancel stances etc. denies compression and in HM the creatures speed away from you anyway.

Evil Eye · Jul 01, 2009, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Just run p rage.

Seraphim Angel · Jul 01, 2009, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Use red/blue rock candies for IAS. Save a skill slot.

Regulus X · Jul 01, 2009, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Okay, seems for the most part that ya'll come mainly from PvE.

So, let me re-emphasize that this change would primarily compliment PvP because there're no IMBA PvE-like skills in PvP to just rape everything with little to no effort. PvP warriors would benefit in that they'd no longer be spikable as the double damage clause would no longer apply. Hence, it'd take a great deal of effort to take down these warriors. Ergo, it'd give a reason for Soldier's Stance's being in "elite" status instead of remaining inferior simply because there're no viable warrior shouts available to compliment it.

Y' dig?

Xsiriss · Jul 01, 2009, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Actually I mainly do PvP,just raping stuff in PvE is fun occasionally and I've noticed how awful warrior's IAS' are in pve. I don't get why people just say, 'use moar candies!111', it gets expensive and strips when moving into another area.

Evil Eye · Jul 01, 2009, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

Okay, seems for the most part that ya'll come mainly from PvE.

So, let me re-emphasize that this change would primarily compliment PvP because there're no IMBA PvE-like skills in PvP to just rape everything with little to no effort. PvP warriors would benefit in that they'd no longer be spikable as the double damage clause would no longer apply. Hence, it'd take a great deal of effort to take down these warriors. Ergo, it'd give a reason for Soldier's Stance's being in "elite" status instead of remaining inferior simply because there're no viable warrior shouts available to compliment it.

Y' dig?

If we are indeed talking about PvP, I think most warriors know what a cancel stance is and use it if they are taking damage.

Tenebrae · Jul 01, 2009, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Maybe make it a refrain , put a longer recharge ( like 10 sec ), longer duration ( 6.... 30 ) and/or add some effect like "hexes and conditions expire 2.... 30....50% faster on you" or somethin.

MagmaRed · Jul 01, 2009, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Make it the new Warrior's Endurance for PvP. Same current stats, but add in "You gain 1 energy for each hit while under the effects of a Shout or Chant." Stance would prevent some problems, and Tactics is already under used. This may give Tactics a buff that would make people consider it. There are a few useful skills in Tactics after all.

Regulus X · Jul 01, 2009, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Eye

If we are indeed talking about PvP, I think most warriors know what a cancel stance is and use it if they are taking damage.

IMS Stances (or any others for the matter) don't always have to pertain to cancelling/negating double-damage effects of frenzy. It can be used quite simply for bulls and landing criticals on kitting foes. I've been testing a W/P variant with Soldier's Stance and there's nothing OP'd about it, but at the same time my worrying over cancelling frenzy's completely absent! Not having to worry about aborting spike because the opposition decided to spike me in frenzy's just GRAND (for lack of a better word). If you favor frenzy and investing in another elite, that's fine. My suggestion's merely to allow more variety and option. If Soldier's Stance were to have it's requirements removed and the skill transferred to the Strength attribute line, it's make for a perfect, non-damaging elite to have in place of good old frenzy.

Concluding, I'm making this suggestion in an effort to add more options to warriors as opposed to just P.Rage, Whirling Axe, Evisc., same-ol same-ol, etc..

Regulus X · Jul 03, 2009, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Update: Just thought of this!

To make this elite follow suite with the rest of the "Soldier's + Shouts/Chants" theme, they can add +1 to strength attribute if affected by shout/chant so that it won't be an imbalanced buff (i.e.: +damage suggestions made so far). PvE can recieve this damage buff at Anet's discretion to better compliment those poor warriors being reduced to flailing.

I think that if these changes would be implemented, both PvP/PvE would benefit greatly with this added variety instead of the same ol' stale builds we've seemingly reverted to using.

/prays

Winterclaw · Jul 03, 2009, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Give it small IMS buff under shout a half IAS buff if you aren't under a shout.

Regulus X · Jul 03, 2009, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Give it small IMS buff under shout a half IAS buff if you aren't under a shout.

Why not the full 33% and +1? Think it's too good for warriors? Please explain.

Here's my suggestion if my initial idea's just too good for warriors:

25% IAS (not under shout) and 33% (under shout). That way it won't be to good without a "solid" shout in team builds. The only downside I can possibly see is IWAY being slightly tougher as the warriors aren't so easily shaken with the double damage clause being absent.