Curse

Fay Vert · Apr 13, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

Really pets should stay as they are.

They take little to no skill (just spam) and therefore shouldn't be as rewarding as playing more skillful templates.

I've never heard a worst reason for not balancing something.

Kattar · Apr 13, 2009, 03:48 PM // 15:48

By way of reminder:

Quote:

10. "It'll Never Happen!"

Due to the current situation in Guild Wars itself, several people have been seen posting replies to threads stating that users might as well not make suggestions for Guild Wars: 1 because ArenaNet will likely not take any notice, or implement anything else. Sardelac Moderators would like to remind you that this is a place for discussion, and to share ideas, regardless of how likely they are to be implemented in GW:1.

Thanks.

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 13, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

I've never heard a worst reason for not balancing something.

So IWAY, WE and mind blast are fair and balanced?

Edit: I'm all for a PvE only buff

syphonus · Apr 13, 2009, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Indeed?

Someone didn't get the memo that Guild Wars is a thing in the past. They're making a new game called Guild Wars 2. Investing hundreds of work hours to reconstruct a single attribute line of single profession with complex UI, balance, localization mechanisms just won't do. While it's understandable that you're enthusiastic about the game, you're wasting your time typing suggestions that will never be implemented.

Fine. Except they're still making new content for GW1-- that's why Chthon started the thread. If they have time to do this, then why not re-work beast mastery? And blood magic, while they're at it.

I like these ideas a lot-- ever since the game came out I've wanted pets to be useful and I was disappointed when I found out that they weren't.

J I L T · Apr 14, 2009, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Pets are already viable as is. Investing 2 skill slots for essentially doubling your attack rate and damage is worth it. And as the topic creator even pointed out pets are treated as a 17-29 weapon so they have a better attack range than bows plus pet attacks don't have flight time. As for the attacks kills being weak bows may have more skills that deal higher bonus damage but most of the bow attacks that spike have a 10 energy cost, have conditions for getting full power or are elite. Plus pet attacks are usually more energy efficient for the amount of damage you deal and they have easier conditions to meet. For instance the only non elite energy attacks for both marksmanship and beast mastery need a condition but the pet attack works for any condition while the bow attack needs cracked armor which a ranger can't even apply plus the pet attack does more bonus damage and gives more energy. Plus pet buffs can't be removed and are easily maintained. The only real thing pets are weak at is interrupting and knocking down. But knocking down isn't something rangers were ever meant to do effectively and interruption can be done well with practice. So really pets could use a nerf if anything else.

Skyy High · Apr 14, 2009, 02:48 AM // 02:48

The only thing the pet corpse change did to PvE was make B/P a bit harder to run in some areas. Giving pets their corpses back won't suddenly make all the rangers out there go "omg pets r awsum again squeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!" They'll still suck, except for the occasional builds using them as corpse engines and nothing more, and I really don't think that's such a good idea, especially with this pet menagerie update coming, which will let all PvP chars charm lvl1 pets continuously.

Chthon · Apr 14, 2009, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by J I L T

Pets are already viable as is. Investing 2 skill slots for essentially doubling your attack rate and damage is worth it. And as the topic creator even pointed out pets are treated as a 17-29 weapon so they have a better attack range than bows plus pet attacks don't have flight time. As for the attacks kills being weak bows may have more skills that deal higher bonus damage but most of the bow attacks that spike have a 10 energy cost, have conditions for getting full power or are elite. Plus pet attacks are usually more energy efficient for the amount of damage you deal and they have easier conditions to meet. For instance the only non elite energy attacks for both marksmanship and beast mastery need a condition but the pet attack works for any condition while the bow attack needs cracked armor which a ranger can't even apply plus the pet attack does more bonus damage and gives more energy. Plus pet buffs can't be removed and are easily maintained. The only real thing pets are weak at is interrupting and knocking down. But knocking down isn't something rangers were ever meant to do effectively and interruption can be done well with practice. So really pets could use a nerf if anything else.

I don't want to sound condescending here, but pets are exceptionally weak on a level that you don't seem to be playing the game on just yet. At the top end, PvE is about how quickly and efficiently your team kills off high-end mobs. To earn a spot on a team, any given build needs to fit into the efficient-killing machine well enough to substitute for the builds that are already there; or it needs to fit into the keep-the-party-alive machine well enough to substitute for the builds that are already there. There's nothing you can do with a pet that even approaches meeting either of those goals.

To help you see how why this is, I want you to try a little exercise. Start by looking over the team build in this thread. You may have to do some searching around the forums to understand how each of the builds works on its own. Now read the thread again and see how the builds work together with each other. Now, try to remove any one of those builds and replace it with a pet user without making the team weaker overall. You can't do it.

Why is that? Because pets are fundamentally weak. The only worthwhile thing they bring to the table is some extra physical his that can be buffed. But the cost you pay for those hits -- 2 skillslots and a ton of attributes -- is so high compared to other ways of getting extra hits -- minions, multi-hit skills -- that it's never justified. My suggestions are about changing that unpleasant truth.

Bluefeather · Apr 14, 2009, 06:57 AM // 06:57

My level 11 imp is way more powerful than my Level 20 Strider in pre-searing.

Pet is a joke. I suggest that pets (The Pet, not the mini pet) should only be displayed in towns/outposts and not to be allowed outside. I think this Zaishen Menagerie fits well for them.

MM's 10 minions is way better than Level 20 pet even if i have +12 BM.

I wonder how many players run BM in PVE. They bring pets but they are not BM (like 3 points in BM).

I wish they will give my pet in presearing "rabbies" (a degen condition) without adding skill to my bar. At least it will make me happy to bring my pet outside town.

zwei2stein · Apr 14, 2009, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Ad bar cost of pet: Issue is that pet related stuff was balanced with two slot cost. One freed slot can send us no nerf/buff spiral because izzy reaction would be to mildly nerf everything pet related to make up for gained slot.

Ad resses: If you add it to few selected resses, and especially touch-based non-combat ones, they will not see much usage, because basically only ranger would have reason to bring them, and noone else as other would be better off with normal combat resses, and outside pet res, they would be only usefull for critical failure recovery (and maybe not even that, rebirth, sigh ...). Ranger could as well just bring comfort, free his secondary and be done with it.

What about consumables? Res scrolls could also res pets. Or new, cheap (think, "pet first aid box" with 20 charges costing 100g) consumable available from new zaishen menahowdoyouspeelit.

Ad damage equation: but pet even at zero point does something, it is physical trigger, it is still vessel for weapon spells, it is still warm body with 80 al and tons of health, it be used to abuse ai ... (i learned to like "pet pulls", neat way to let enemies waste their first volley on one target without ever having to worry about cleaning up hexes/conditions)

Ad imba: ranger is not buff profession. But they excel at manipulating environment to suit party needs. What you want is to tamper with beast mastery spirits or traps. Symbiosis could, for example, give out health bonus not only for enchantments but also for shouts. Make BM spirits require pet within range to function and you are set.

distilledwill · Apr 14, 2009, 09:01 AM // 09:01

HaO is used extensively in HB, as is Charm animal (R/P packhunter rangers are a very popular splitter) buffing both heal as one and other pet builds would make these guys virtually unstoppable.

(Hey, I'm all for it if it makes my heroes more powerful - I use 2 of these guys - but I can imagine the crap-storm that would emerge if they were buffed too much).

StormX · Apr 14, 2009, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanging Man

Also I would like Anet to change the pet AI. make it so pets are always attacking what you attack. usually I find pets to lag behind my target, there hitting one while im hitting the other.

This. Is why pet AI needs retooling. At least hench/heros follow call. Pets are slow as mofos and tend to get stuck. Pets should die at the exact same time their owner dies and rezz at exactly the same time so that they dont get 'lost'.

Hugh Manatee · Apr 14, 2009, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Maybe a dumb idea, but what if they added more skills that added the pet to the party, besides charm animal, and maybe add something to the functionality of charm to compensate. Like all the skills with the "As One" and never rampage alone bring the pet with you.

Or just have it set that when you put points in beast mastery the pet shows up, since the thing's damage scales with it's attribute investment...

smilingscar · Apr 14, 2009, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

No, no and no. That would be so incredibly overpowered for rangers it's not even funny. MoM works for eles because there is little that is overpowered about multi-elemental builds. having all ranger attributes at 12 AND having more attributes for secondary lines it absurd.

Well, I did forget about adding a clause for "you lose 10 energy and this stance ends if you use a non-ranger skill," but I think it could work. The fact that it is a stance denies the character access to an IAS and balances it a bit. Probably the 25% skill reduction is dumb, but I couldn't think of a good benefit akin to MoM's +2 e-regen. All I'm suggesting is a weaker but broader form of expert's dexterity to remove the cry for BM and WS weapons. What penalties would you give it to balance it?

trankle · Apr 14, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

In terms of rezzes in PvE, I guess I just don't see why all rezzes shouldn't affect pets.

Aside from the few rezzes with obvious drawbacks ([resurrection signet] needing morale boost to recharge, [death pact signet] coming with 120 second window of possible death, etc), all rezzes have the drawback of taking the rezzer out of combat for 3-6 seconds (or being elite). I would think that would be a significant enough drawback to allow any rez to affect pets.

If a pet dies, you've lost a damage source, and the pet's owner has all his skills disabled for 3-10 seconds. If another character wants to use 3-6 seconds during that period taking himself out of battle to rez the pet, that seems fair to me, at least in PvE.

J I L T · Apr 15, 2009, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

I don't want to sound condescending here, but pets are exceptionally weak on a level that you don't seem to be playing the game on just yet. At the top end, PvE is about how quickly and efficiently your team kills off high-end mobs. To earn a spot on a team, any given build needs to fit into the efficient-killing machine well enough to substitute for the builds that are already there; or it needs to fit into the keep-the-party-alive machine well enough to substitute for the builds that are already there. There's nothing you can do with a pet that even approaches meeting either of those goals.

To help you see how why this is, I want you to try a little exercise. Start by looking over the team build in this thread. You may have to do some searching around the forums to understand how each of the builds works on its own. Now read the thread again and see how the builds work together with each other. Now, try to remove any one of those builds and replace it with a pet user without making the team weaker overall. You can't do it.

Why is that? Because pets are fundamentally weak. The only worthwhile thing they bring to the table is some extra physical his that can be buffed. But the cost you pay for those hits -- 2 skillslots and a ton of attributes -- is so high compared to other ways of getting extra hits -- minions, multi-hit skills -- that it's never justified. My suggestions are about changing that unpleasant truth.

First of all I play in hard mode a lot and do elite areas. And saying the entire point of PvE is to do things the fastest most efficient way is BS. For me at least a game is about fun I don't have to use the top meta builds that make the game ridiculously easy. And if that's all you care about why do you care if pets get buffed? If there are already so many uber team builds at your finger tips than use those, if you want a new way a playing then use the overlooked pet. And the fact that people complain about an attribute line requiring skill slots and attribute points is ridiculous, having to use a major or superior rune is not a valid argument for buffing an entire mechanic and skill line to oblivion just so people can have a new meta.

And no build with "way" in it is impressive. I'm not impressed that you're the 10 millionth person to agree that mms, 100 extra armor, curses, infinite energy and spikes are good. And It's certainly not going to get me to agree with you on a completely unrelated topic. Also I'm positive a beast master could replace the warrior easily, you'd just be trading aoe damage for spikes. [marauders shot] and [enraged lunge] can deal 100+ damage a piece and if you're not hitting for enough damage it's called cracked armor and -20 armor increases damage by 41% then if you're hitting twice as fast that's 82% more damage than you would be doing with just a bow. Still not doing enough damage? The put a weapon spell on your pet, put balthazar's aura on it, strength of honor, judge's insight possibilities are endless. There are so many skills for a reason so people can be creative and adapt to situations not use the same metas for everything and turn your nose up at everything else.

And I mean come on you're hitting twice constantly with a 100% certainty save for blocking and blindness. Pets are the only way to do this that alone makes them powerful. And even if I have no idea what I'm talking about and they are weak maybe they're supposed be. Some skill lines are always going to be weaker compared to others in some ways but that doesn't mean they're useless. Fire magic deals the most damage but does that make earth, water or air useless? Water can snare, earth has defensive skills and air has armor penetration. Bows may hit harder and interrupt better but pets can knockdown, spread conditions better, manage energy and gives you access to some very powerful nature rituals and buffs.

Chthon · Apr 15, 2009, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Ad bar cost of pet: Issue is that pet related stuff was balanced with two slot cost. One freed slot can send us no nerf/buff spiral because izzy reaction would be to mildly nerf everything pet related to make up for gained slot.

The thing is, it's not balanced at the two-slot cost. It's badly underpowered at the two-slot cost.

Quote:

Ad resses: If you add it to few selected resses, and especially touch-based non-combat ones, they will not see much usage, because basically only ranger would have reason to bring them, and noone else as other would be better off with normal combat resses, and outside pet res, they would be only usefull for critical failure recovery (and maybe not even that, rebirth, sigh ...). Ranger could as well just bring comfort, free his secondary and be done with it.

I was sticking to the bad rezzes to keep a certainly level of cost involved there. I'm looking to reduce the cost from 2 skillslots to one-and-a-half. If any rez at all could rez a pet, that would essentially reduce the cost all the way to one skillslot, since every team carries a hard rez somewhere.

Now, given a choice between a skillslot cost of one or two, I think one is a hell of a lot better; but I still think one-and-a-half is most balanced.

Quote:

What about consumables? Res scrolls could also res pets. Or new, cheap (think, "pet first aid box" with 20 charges costing 100g) consumable available from new zaishen menahowdoyouspeelit.

This is an excellent idea. I'm going to add it to OP.

Quote:

Ad damage equation: but pet even at zero point does something, it is physical trigger, it is still vessel for weapon spells, it is still warm body with 80 al and tons of health, it be used to abuse ai ... (i learned to like "pet pulls", neat way to let enemies waste their first volley on one target without ever having to worry about cleaning up hexes/conditions)

Yes, it is a physical trigger, and a meat shield. The problem is (a) that's all it is, and (b) it costs a hell of a lot more than any other "naked trigger" you can add to your team. For pets to be viable, they either need to cost the same as other naked triggers (minions, vanguard assassin, an extra multi-hit attack on the skillbar), or they need to become al lot more than just naked triggers, or some combination thereof.

Quote:

Ad imba: ranger is not buff profession. But they excel at manipulating environment to suit party needs. What you want is to tamper with beast mastery spirits or traps. Symbiosis could, for example, give out health bonus not only for enchantments but also for shouts. Make BM spirits require pet within range to function and you are set.

Rangers aren't a buff profession, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be. A pure BM ranger doesn't do anything worthwhile, so a-net has a pretty free hand in restructuring them into something useful. Now, I'm not saying that buff has to be the direction they go, but they do have to go in some direction away from what they are now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

HaO is used extensively in HB, as is Charm animal (R/P packhunter rangers are a very popular splitter) buffing both heal as one and other pet builds would make these guys virtually unstoppable.

Forgive me for being curt, but HB is a joke. We shouldn't balance around HB and more than we balance around RA, TA, or AB. Now, show me buffed pets unbalancing GvG, and that might give me pause.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J I L T

-snip-

1. Stop. Just stop.

2. If you think a beastmaster could replace the warrior in that build, take another look at what happens when HB+WW meets MoP. The beastmaster can't replicate that.

Marverick · Apr 15, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by J I L T

First of all I play in hard mode a lot and do elite areas. And saying the entire point of PvE is to do things the fastest most efficient way is BS. For me at least a game is about fun I don't have to use the top meta builds that make the game ridiculously easy. And if that's all you care about why do you care if pets get buffed? If there are already so many uber team builds at your finger tips than use those, if you want a new way a playing then use the overlooked pet. And the fact that people complain about an attribute line requiring skill slots and attribute points is ridiculous, having to use a major or superior rune is not a valid argument for buffing an entire mechanic and skill line to oblivion just so people can have a new meta.

And no build with "way" in it is impressive. I'm not impressed that you're the 10 millionth person to agree that mms, 100 extra armor, curses, infinite energy and spikes are good. And It's certainly not going to get me to agree with you on a completely unrelated topic. Also I'm positive a beast master could replace the warrior easily, you'd just be trading aoe damage for spikes. [marauders shot] and [enraged lunge] can deal 100+ damage a piece and if you're not hitting for enough damage it's called cracked armor and -20 armor increases damage by 41% then if you're hitting twice as fast that's 82% more damage than you would be doing with just a bow. Still not doing enough damage? The put a weapon spell on your pet, put balthazar's aura on it, strength of honor, judge's insight possibilities are endless. There are so many skills for a reason so people can be creative and adapt to situations not use the same metas for everything and turn your nose up at everything else.

And I mean come on you're hitting twice constantly with a 100% certainty save for blocking and blindness. Pets are the only way to do this that alone makes them powerful. And even if I have no idea what I'm talking about and they are weak maybe they're supposed be. Some skill lines are always going to be weaker compared to others in some ways but that doesn't mean they're useless. Fire magic deals the most damage but does that make earth, water or air useless? Water can snare, earth has defensive skills and air has armor penetration. Bows may hit harder and interrupt better but pets can knockdown, spread conditions better, manage energy and gives you access to some very powerful nature rituals and buffs.

Your bow damage will be pretty pathetic since you'll need at least 13-14 expertise to keep that combo up.

And Enraged Lunge is 16 DPS if it hits on recharge. Does that really make up for a pet's crappy damage?... Even with Feral Aggression and Great Dwarf Weapon, your pet will be doing 60ish MAX, and that combo gives you negative net energy you can't use anything else. Dragon Slash does 70-80ish DPS and powers a ton of utility. MS/DB is 110+ DPS. Sorry, but pets fail.

Pets need to attack faster. Once every 2 seconds is just fail. I would put it at 1.5 at least.

CronkTheImpaler · Apr 15, 2009, 03:15 AM // 03:15

i may be adding something that doesnt belong but on the topic of pet effectiveness. AI. it really eats hard. Pets are the companion equivalent of Zhedd. horse parks his arse in front of ya the entire time.

there must be a way to make the pets lock and attack more effectively. they seem to spend alot of time just kinda chillin.

i like bringin my stalker BeefnCheddar out once in a while but for all intents and purposes hes just a meat shield.

Cronk

draxynnic · Apr 15, 2009, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Working through the OP's points:

1) Agreed. Personally, I've thought for a while that carrying ANY skill that requires a pet should bring the pet with you as well. (This, incidentally, still allows Heal as One to serve as bar compression, as it then combines Comfort Animal with a self-heal.)

2) Doesn't seem to be necessary - requiring a split seems a fair trade for having two weapons on the field.

3) As has been suggested, I'd be inclined to go the other way - make party buffs apply to the party's pets as well. This could even be taken to the level of making pet attacks count as attack skills for the pet for the purposes of anthems.

4) On the whole, I think the pet attacks are actually fairly decent... or, at least, there are enough decent ones to use.

I'd agree with pet attacks that are intended to be used as interrupts having a shortened attack time - it should be possible to use them as interrupts, after all, rather than it simply being luck if one connects unless used against Meteor Shower or the like.

5) Unnecessary. As has been said, the beast is a weapon. Having to split attributes is the price you pay for having two weapons on the field - and if you use a caster secondary, you can use the appropriate caster weapon for the attribute you're using and remain perfectly effective. Heck, trappers have been using staffs (that might have the Inspiration requirement filled, but then again, might not...) pretty much since release.

Skye Marin · Apr 16, 2009, 01:43 AM // 01:43

With the upcoming addition of the Zaishen Menagerie, there is incentive and opportunity to give more viability and fuctionality to the Beast Mastery line. Pets, in general, aren't too useful in PvP, except for a few specific builds where the pet is used simply for the elite skill. The required skill slots limit viability in PvP, and in PvE, they are too fragile and inefficient to be worthwhile. Here are a collection of desire changes to help solve these issues.

General:
- In PvP, all pets are set to level 20
- Pets no longer have a short delay when adjacent to a targeted foe, before they start attacking
- The Pet command window now remembers where it is placed and remains open after zoning
- Pets cannot body block, and aren't body blocked by other caracters

Increasing viability

The functionality previously exclusive to Charm Animal is now available in a small handful of skills. Simply equipping one of these skills will allow you to bring your pet along, however, Charm Animal will still be used to initially capture your desired pet. The skills have also been changed in functionality. The skills included for the new functionality are listed below, and have been updated to reflect the change. Skill stats are shown as Energy/Activation/Recharge, with instant-activation skills like shouts as 0 activation. Changes are in Bold.

Companionship - 5/2/10 "Skill. Your animal companion travels with you. If you have less Health than your pet, you are healed for 30...102...120 Health. If your pet has less Health than you, it is healed for 30...102...120 Health. If your pet is dead, it is revived with 3.19..23% health."

Heal as One - 5/1/10 "Elite Skill. Your animal companion travels with you. If you or your animal companion are below 75% Health, you are both healed for 25...121...145 Health. If your companion is dead, it is resurrected with 50% Health."

Comfort Animal - 10/1/5 "Half-range skill. Your animal companion travels with you. Your pet gains 35...151...180 Health. Resurrects your pet (10...48...58% Health.)"

Revive Animal - 5/2/10 "Skill. Your animal companion travels with you. Resurrects all nearby allied pets (10...77...94% Health). For 5..20 seconds, these pets move and attack 25% faster and have +1..8 health regeneration. Pets dying under the influence of this skill aren't effected by Death Penalty."

Strike as One - 5/0/10 "Elite Shout. Your animal companion travels with you. Your animal companion instantly moves to your target and inflicts Bleeding (5...13...15 seconds) with its next attack. The next time you hit with an attack, you inflict Crippled condition (5...13...15 seconds). If your pet is dead, it is revived with 25% health, and your skills are disabled for 10 seconds."

Never Rampage Alone - 5/0/20 "Skill. Your animal companion travels with you. For 18..25 seconds, you and your pet attack 25% faster and have 1..3 Health regeneration. If your pet is dead, it is revived at your location at 50% health."

Other Skill updates

Run as One - increase duration to 5..17..20 seconds

Tiger's Fury / Beastial Fury - also gives you pet a 25% IAS

Call of Protection - New Functionality - 10/0/15 - "Shout. For 5..13..15 seconds, your pet deals weakness (5..13..15 sec) when it hits moving and attacking foes. Ends when you use an attack skill."

Symbiotic Bond - Changed functionality - 10/2/45 - "Skill. For 30..60 seconds, while your pet is alive, all non-elite skills that affect your pet in the Beast Mastery line cost -5..41..50% less energy" and you gain 0..1..2 energy each time your pet hits with an attack."

The goal here is to give players the ability to use pets in a secondary profession.

And a just for fun bonus:

Heket's Rampage - New Functionality - "Stance. For 2..8..10 seconds, you attack 33% faster, but your attack skills cost 75..51..45% more energy and you cannot gain adrenaline from attacks."