Curse

reaper with no name · Jul 28, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

3 out of the 5 avatars just aren't worth bringing along. AoM and AoD are ok, because they offer condition immunity and hex removal, but the other avatars don't have comparable unique traits that warrant bringing them along. They're mostly offensive or defensive-based. But since none of them allow a dervish to meet or beat the offensive and defensive capabilities of a scythe sin or scythe warrior, there's really no reason to use them. So, here we go:

Avatar of Balthazar (PvE)
10 energy, 2 activation, 30 recharge
For 10...74 seconds, you gain +20 armor, you move 33% faster, you have 50% chance to block, and your attacks deal holy damage. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

50% block chance, of course, means a 50% damage reduction from melee. That in addition to +20 armor (which is an additional 25% damage reduction to everything) should be enough to make a dervish a better tank (at least against melee) than a scythe warrior.

Avatar of Grenth (PvE)
15 energy, 2 activation, 30 recharge
For 10...74 seconds, your attacks cannot miss or be blocked, and your attacks deal cold damage and steal 5...17 life. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

The purpose of AoG seems to be to bypass defenses. Unfortunately, enchantments are not nearly as common in PvE as they are in PvP. And, again, the meager lifesteal is not enough to allow the dervish to compete with other scythe users. So, let's buff the anti-defense aspect. Now, blocking stances won't stop it and it has de-facto immunity to blindness (though not weakness or any other conditions), as well as to hexes that cause one to miss with attacks.

Avatar of Lyssa (PvE)
5 energy, 2 activation, 30 recharge
For 10...74 seconds, your attacks deal +5...41 damage to foes activating skills. Furthermore, your attacks steal 0...2 energy. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

Higher max energy is not the same as energy management. Energy stealing fares much better as far as energy management goes, and in this case has the added benefit of hindering enemies by reducing the amount of energy they have available to use against you.

Oh, and let's please keep the "Dervishes are/are not fine as-is" to this thread, please. This is just about modifying the avatars specifically.

Evasion Twenty · Jul 28, 2009, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Lyssa....its ok but idk if it needs a buff.

Dervs dont need to be tanks, that's why they have 70 armor

Mad Lord of Milk · Jul 28, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Your buff to AoB is way OP - 70 seconds of unremovable Guardian.

AoL doesn't need to be buffed or nerfed.

AoG might work.

the Puppeteer · Jul 28, 2009, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Avatar of Balthazar (PvE)
10 energy, 2 activation, 30 recharge
For 10...74 seconds, you gain +20 armor, you move 33% faster, you have 50% chance to block, and your attacks deal holy damage. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

wouldn't mind seeing this

, but too overpowered

pinguinius · Jul 28, 2009, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad Lord of Milk

Your buff to AoB is way OP - 70 seconds of unremovable Guardian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Puppeteer

wouldn't mind seeing this

, but too overpowered

I don't think the monsters will mind.

Rugar · Jul 28, 2009, 05:28 PM // 17:28

/notsigned

Each Avatar has its uses. Since you're talking PvE, why do you care how it compares against any other build?

IronSheik · Jul 28, 2009, 06:08 PM // 18:08

These are all bad buffs.

As for balthazar, wasn't he god of warr and fire? He needs more of a damage buff rather than a defense buff, 33% IMS + a Block?

Grenth - Sorry, melee hexes and blind that have no effect AND you want it to still have a life steal and free cold damage, wrong direction for this buff imo

Lyssa - Why even have it raise max energy if it steals 2 per hit? No one ever said Lyssa was for energy management, that's dependant on the player and other skills, again wrong direction for a buff. If anything an IAS to go with the damage clause.

I don't know about you, but I never see the use of Melandru, I think it needs a buff or made to non elite status honestly. Conditions, Earth damage and some anti-super rune health do not make a good dervish, yes you have wearying strike, but it has no activation time with only 20 damage.

superraptors · Jul 28, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

give aob ias and ill be happy.................
________
IPAD GUIDE

-Makai- · Jul 28, 2009, 07:37 PM // 19:37

The Balthazar suggestion is a bit overpowered, but the others look decent. Personally, I think the "disabled after 120 seconds" clause should be removed in PvE. Since there's only five enemies in the game that use forms, and most everyone is bored to tears by the typical WS/RS, it would be a good change.

Then again, with stuff like perma-sin, it's not as if balance even matters.

Xyon the Greatest · Jul 28, 2009, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Basically all your avatars you just buffed are crazy overpowered...

How About...

Avatar of Balthazar: 30...90 Seconds you move and attack 25% faster and have +10...25 Armor

Avatar of Lyssa: You Deal +5...20 damage and steal 0...1 energy for each foe you hit

Avatar of Grenth: Your attacks are unblockable, your foes lose 0...1 enchantment each hit. Your attacks deal cold damage.

Reverend Dr · Jul 28, 2009, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Seems like a "Look at my skill suggestions" thread.

IronSheik · Jul 28, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xyon the Greatest

Avatar of Lyssa: You Deal +10...30 damage and steal 0...1 energy for each foe you hit

Hope you mean activating skills

reaper with no name · Jul 28, 2009, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

These are all bad buffs.

As for balthazar, wasn't he god of warr and fire? He needs more of a damage buff rather than a defense buff, 33% IMS + a Block?

Grenth - Sorry, melee hexes and blind that have no effect AND you want it to still have a life steal and free cold damage, wrong direction for this buff imo

Lyssa - Why even have it raise max energy if it steals 2 per hit? No one ever said Lyssa was for energy management, that's dependant on the player and other skills, again wrong direction for a buff. If anything an IAS to go with the damage clause.

I don't know about you, but I never see the use of Melandru, I think it needs a buff or made to non elite status honestly. Conditions, Earth damage and some anti-super rune health do not make a good dervish, yes you have wearying strike, but it has no activation time with only 20 damage.

Lyssa wouldn't raise max energy with this suggestion.

How many enemies have the ability to block or otherwise make you miss? Yeah, not that many. That's why AoG would get all that. Plus, the cold damage is meaningless with AoHM anyway.

I like Xyon's AoB idea though.

Xenomortis · Jul 28, 2009, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xyon the Greatest

Avatar of Grenth: Your attacks are unblockable, your foes lose 0...1 enchantment each hit and you steal 5...15 life. Your attacks deal cold damage.

Unblockable, enchantment removal and life steal? Even with the cold damage clause that strikes me as very overpowered, even for PvE.
Whilst the unblockable aspect isn't too much (as there isn't much that does block in PvE), the enchantment removal is a lot.

reaper with no name · Jul 28, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Well, I'm not too keen on that one, but I don't think it's overpowered. You're forgetting that this is for the dervish. Mr warrior is tougher and stronger than he is, even with the lifestealing. So unblockability and enchantment removal doesn't seem like much. In fact, with how rare both of those are in PvE, I'd even say it fails at the objective of making the avatar something worth bringing along.

FengShuiDove · Jul 28, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Give Balthazar an IAS (balance IMS and armor if necessary based on IAS%). This is more conducive to the "God of War" idea than just running fast and having high armor, plus it offers bar compression and a maintainable IAS, which, no matter how you slice it, Dervish really doesn't have a good option for.

Give Lyssa a small unconditional damage buff and/or some energy stealing. +0...15 damage to foes regardless of skill activation would be nice, and since in HM foes are activating skills much faster (and with higher armor/level, minimizing crits) it doesn't really break the balance. You get higher damage and some E-management but it's not super overpowered.

Somehow balance Grenth so that it can be completely unblockable. Stances are a FAR more prevalent method of blocking when it comes to PvE mobs from my experience as a frontliner.

Overall, I think that the Avatars would be a great way to bring Dervishes back to prominence with the Scythe like they should be. I'm a big fan of A/D, and I've experimented with W/D and R/D. In comparison, D/ with scythe is *nothing*. Avatars are a fun and unique way to pump up Derv scythes.

Aeon221 · Jul 28, 2009, 11:23 PM // 23:23

I have a few suggestions:

Run a war or sin or ranger with a scythe instead.

Quote:

Avatar of Balthazar (PvE)
10 energy, 2 activation, 30 recharge
For 10...74 seconds, you gain +20 armor, you move 33% faster, you have 50% chance to block, and your attacks deal holy damage. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

almost as good as http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:R/D_PvE_Scythe_Ranger with escape

Quote:

Avatar of Lyssa (PvE)
5 energy, 2 activation, 30 recharge
For 10...74 seconds, your attacks deal +5...41 damage to foes activating skills. Furthermore, your attacks steal 0...2 energy. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

far weaker than http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/D_...cythe_Assassin

Quote:

Avatar of Grenth (PvE)
15 energy, 2 activation, 30 recharge
For 10...74 seconds, your attacks cannot miss or be blocked, and your attacks deal cold damage and steal 5...17 life. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/D_Enduring_Scythe with rip enchant and condition removal on another char.

Need I say more? These suggested buffs are far weaker than what you can already do with other classes. Maybe if AoB was updated so that it crapped out +100al to all party members every five seconds people would take a derv over a warrior, but until that (glorious) day comes, there won't be much point.

reaper with no name · Jul 28, 2009, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Scythe sins don't steal energy. Stealing energy means that you not only get it, but the enemy loses it, therefore being less able to counterattack.

W/Ds can't do anything about block stances or hexes.

Ranger derv doesn't get as much armor.

However, the fact that you can simulate most of this other ways demonstrates that these changes wouldn't be overpowered. In fact, they might even be underpowered.

Axel Zinfandel · Jul 29, 2009, 05:38 AM // 05:38

I think you people are missing the fact that tanking sucks in PvE, and if anyone is going to run a tank in a prepared team build it will be a permaform.

Balthazar should not be a tanking form it should be a battle form. add IAS instead of IMS, and either a chance to critical, armor penetration, or increased % damage. Dervishes need something to outpower warriors and assassins that do their job better.

Furthermore, I think forms should be maintainable without Eternal Aura at higher mysticism, and the functionality of Eternal Aura should either be buffed or changed completely. Keep the disabling in PvP, obviously, but in PvE, the skill slot for Eternal Aura is much more useful for something else

draxynnic · Jul 29, 2009, 05:47 AM // 05:47

As I pointed out in the other thread, Lyssa's energy buff can act as energy management. Extra energy can mean you can get all your buffs down at once and then start throwing attack skills immediately rather than the Dervish's normally relatively shallow 25-30 pool running out halfway through. Generally, by the time said buffs run out and need to be reapplied, said pool has refilled (often with the help of Mysticism).

My usual buff list with a Lyssa dervish goes Heart of Fury-Eternal Aura-AOHM (which with the deep energy pool means you can use Eternal Aura to recharge HoF and AoHM to make them nearly maintainable). With Avatar of Lyssa, there's enough energy left to be worth opening up with Radiant Scythe afterwards (or Zealous Sweep followed by Radiant if I can hit more than one opponent). Without the Avatar, this cycle leaves you with no energy at all.

Either way, by the time I need to reapply the buffs I've usually got the energy back (especially if I switch to the zealous scythe), but to get them off I need to have it in the first place - and to get it back through Mysticism, I obviously need to have a pool deep enough to hold it.

tl;dr version: Your proposed 'buff' would actually be a fairly painful nerf to at least one build.

Regarding the others: Balthazar probably really needs more offense rather than more defense. Maybe an attack speed buff, maybe make him automatically inflict Burning when he hits with attack skills, maybe... something else. But he's the god of killing things, not the god of survivability. His avatar should at least have something to reflect that.

On Grenth... ignoring block chances altogether seems a little too powerful given the long duration... and possibly also just a little too vanilla as well. I'd probably replace it with something like "Your attack skills cannot be blocked and strip an enchantment from the target." This both gives you something to get through block stances without negating them entirely, and it gives a good way to strip not just blocking enchantments but any other annoying defensive enchantment the target may have. Spellcasters will love you for stripping an annoying Obsidian Flesh, Vow of Silence or Spell Breaker.