Curse

Shasgaliel · Aug 11, 2009, 11:20 AM // 11:20

ermmm no. I do not want to see such overpowered skills used by some of the NF elementals. Unless your point is to make pve harder then it is fine....

Xenomortis · Aug 11, 2009, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

ermmm no. I do not want to see such overpowered skills used by some of the NF elementals. Unless your point is to make pve harder then it is fine....

On reflection, I advocate the new changes for this reason alone.

And no, I'm not being serious.

waeland · Aug 11, 2009, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expherious

Dude, dont mess with Earth Magic its already got the single most powerful Elite skill in the game, and the skills are just fine the way they are.

You mean Shadow Form, Assassin's Promise, Spitefull Spirits, Earth Shaker .... oh wait, they are not earth;) But seriously - all earth elites except Stone Sheath are good, but single most powerful Elite skill in the game ? Everyone knows it is Echo Mending.

BrettM · Aug 11, 2009, 01:31 PM // 13:31

/notsigned

My first, and main, character is an earth ele, and I love playing him. Earth magic is an extraordinarily flexible line, with both active and passive defense (personal and team), snares, and fairly respectable amounts of either AoE or spike damage. (Of course fire is better for AoE, air for spike, and water for snare. But earth has at least something worthy in all those lines, plus defense.) It is a support line that doesn't feel like playing support.

I'm all for getting some earth love from ANet, but I see no particular value to the changes proposed here. I don't see any need for armor penetration, which doesn't really fit the theme, especially since earth already has a number of skills that do armor ignoring bonus damage.

Yes, a number of very powerful earth AoE skills are point blank. But, there is a reason for this. Earth magic also has a wide selection of armor skills that let an earth mage get in among the foe to use this AoE. Making those skills ranged would certainly make them vastly OP. The fact that these combinations are rarely used outside earth farming builds is beside the point -- they are nicely balanced around the concept of a high-armor ele with devastating PBAoE. (And I would hate to lose my farming ability because of changes to this.

)

You want longer knockdowns? Go /Rt and bring Earthbind. With the recent buffs to rit spirits, this is now a more viable option than ever. Plus, it assists everyone on the team with a knockdown skill, from hammer warriors to smiting monks to anyone with YMLaD. For my money, being able to support the team > increased individual power.

If you want to find earth skills that really could use some love, you don't have to look far. Think of something nice to do with, say, Iron Mist, which is about the most useless skill in creation. Perhaps there is some bizarre earth/air/MoM build that can use this, or an earth mage with a team of air mages and/or rits, but I just can't see it being as effective as so many other options that are less limited. Creating a specific setup just to take advantage of one single-target snare? Bah.

draxynnic · Aug 12, 2009, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If I ever had reason to run Earth magic on my ele it would be Unsteady Ground or AP. The apparant disuse of EM elites is simply because AP is better than the next two options (UG and Sandstorm), the remaining three are useless and you don't need elite energy management.

Pretty much my thinking in a nutshell. I do run earth on my elementalist at least a third of the time, usually with Unsteady Ground... but I know plenty of people prefer Assassin's Promise, and, to be frank, AP probably does create a better build when added to Unsteady Ground, Eruption, and EBSoH in Hard Mode. This makes Unsteady Ground the best Earth elite in my book, but it's utility over AP even in an Earth Magic build is questionable, while AP can supercharge the bars of Necromancers and Mesmers as well.

Xenomortis · Aug 12, 2009, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

Iron Mist, which is about the most useless skill in creation.

No! Don't change my beloved Luxon FA griefing skill!

t00115577 · Aug 12, 2009, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Why change? Earth is already a hella lot better than the rest, on par maybe with Air, but the other 2 are rubbish

trankle · Aug 13, 2009, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

If you want to find earth skills that really could use some love, you don't have to look far. Think of something nice to do with, say, Iron Mist, which is about the most useless skill in creation. Perhaps there is some bizarre earth/air/MoM build that can use this, or an earth mage with a team of air mages and/or rits, but I just can't see it being as effective as so many other options that are less limited. Creating a specific setup just to take advantage of one single-target snare? Bah.

I've always thought it should work well with a Mark of Pain / physicals team. When you get the whole team focusing on the MoP target, it's the target himself who tries to flee, not his buddies who are taking all the AoE damage. Iron Mist could keep the target quite snared, while at the same time ensuring that he does not die too quickly from focused fire, ensuring that MoP does its maximum potential damage.

That said, I've never tried it.

BrettM · Aug 13, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

I've always thought it should work well with a Mark of Pain / physicals team. When you get the whole team focusing on the MoP target, it's the target himself who tries to flee, not his buddies who are taking all the AoE damage. Iron Mist could keep the target quite snared, while at the same time ensuring that he does not die too quickly from focused fire, ensuring that MoP does its maximum potential damage.

Wow. You have a devious way of thinking. I like it.

It might be pretty devastating against groups of melee foes. However, it doesn't sound too practical against groups that won't ball up as well. Casters and rangers aren't going to come running in to stand next to whatever target you're beating on. And if there's any hex removal going around, you're sunk in either event.

Your suggestion feels like even more of a one-trick pony than the setup I described with the air mage and/or channeling rit team. I do have to wonder what the designers of that skill were thinking people would do with it. It's just too narrowly specialized. Obviously meant to be functional in some kind of team build for snare-spike, but any spikers who could take advantage of it would probably do about as well without the snare. (In fact, they would have to most of the time, since Iron Mist has a 30-sec cooldown.)

DoomFrost · Aug 13, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I don't see a problem with Earth magic. The only thing I'd change about Earthquake and Dragon Stomp is possibly lowering their cast times down to 2 seconds. Other than that...

/notsigned

Aeon221 · Aug 13, 2009, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Other than wards and UG (and churning in pve hm), earth always looked pretty much crap.

For KD, in pvp you're better off with a physical, and in pve with AP and MS + Glyph of Sac. For blind, bsurge. For defense in pvp wards are pretty standard, but nobody goes more than 9 earth unless they also want to take UG -- which is pretty rare. In pve (even hm) wards are nigh on worthless -- neither pugs nor heroes stand in them, and on a guild team you have either an imba or monks good enough that it won't matter. In terms of snares, you're better off grabbing deep freeze, what with its 10 sec 0 point req snare of doom. And, obviously, earth's damage is laughable, even compared to channeling.

Maybe earth would be more interesting if, say, Stoneflesh and Armor of Earth were target ally rather than self. It'd give eles an active defensive option to help the team, rather than all their passive self defense options that no one bothers with.

waeland · Aug 14, 2009, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

Other than wards and UG (and churning in pve hm), earth always looked pretty much crap.

For KD, in pvp you're better off with a physical, and in pve with AP and MS + Glyph of Sac. For blind, bsurge. For defense in pvp wards are pretty standard, but nobody goes more than 9 earth unless they also want to take UG -- which is pretty rare. In pve (even hm) wards are nigh on worthless -- neither pugs nor heroes stand in them, and on a guild team you have either an imba or monks good enough that it won't matter. In terms of snares, you're better off grabbing deep freeze, what with its 10 sec 0 point req snare of doom. And, obviously, earth's damage is laughable, even compared to channeling.

You are biased. You spent a lots of tim describing that AoE KDs are easier in fire, snare in water, earth damage sucks, self defense useless... First - you missed main point which is earth is versatile. In one element you can have build with excelend self-defense and party support with wards and inflicting weakness and KDs and doing decent damage. Yes, it is true that in HM earth damage is weak, because all elemental damage sucks in HM. Earth is only one element which can make decent armor ignoring damage (2x crystals + obsidian flame), just PvE only skills do it much better.Second - Wards in PvE works just great, if your group does not stay inside them ...well the trouble is somewhere between chair and keyboard

Even with heroes they are sure worth it if you manage them properly. And last but not least, earth is fun to play, so many combinations.

BTW Churning Earth you mentioned as great on HM PvE sure is amazing, but because of KDs not damage, so it can be used even with zero earth (simillar to Maelstrom with zero water).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

Maybe earth would be more interesting if, say, Stoneflesh and Armor of Earth were target ally rather than self. It'd give eles an active defensive option to help the team, rather than all their passive self defense options that no one bothers with.

I woul love to see this, just I am afraid ANet would see them too powerfull. And weaking them would make many earth tank builds impossible.

Aeon221 · Aug 14, 2009, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

You are biased. You spent a lots of tim describing that AoE KDs are easier in fire, snare in water, earth damage sucks, self defense useless... First - you missed main point which is earth is versatile. In one element you can have build with excelend self-defense and party support with wards and inflicting weakness and KDs and doing decent damage. Yes, it is true that in HM earth damage is weak, because all elemental damage sucks in HM. Earth is only one element which can make decent armor ignoring damage (2x crystals + obsidian flame), just PvE only skills do it much better.Second - Wards in PvE works just great, if your group does not stay inside them ...well the trouble is somewhere between chair and keyboard Even with heroes they are sure worth it if you manage them properly. And last but not least, earth is fun to play, so many combinations.

Versatile? Yeah I guess that's one word for an element without a purpose.

The two crystal waves are armor ignoring pbaoe at the cost of conditions. Not viable. And Obsidian Flame? Lol?

Wards are useless in pve because better options for damage mitigation exist -- ones that perform the same function without tying your team to a small area vulnerable to aoe damage. Your party will also generally prefer that you focus on doing halfway decent damage instead of mediocre party support. On my builds, I generally prefer a 12-9-9 or 11-10-10 into prot for Aegis and Prot Spirit or channeling for ARage and Splinter for party support because they are quite simply better than anything available in earth. After all, why dick around with buffs to your armor when you can maintain prot spirit on multiple folks.

The same is true for self defense. Outside of a few farm builds, no one bothers with them. And tanking? I'm fairly certain that permas are optimal for that.

Earth would be more interesting with some functionality changes.

draxynnic · Aug 14, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

I have a liking for combining Earth DoT effects from within an Ebon Battle Standard of Honor myself. Sure, you can do it with Fire, but that's just armour-respecting damage and doesn't have the yummy knockdowns and blind.

Really, though, it is the versatility. Fire does more damage and, with meteor shower builds, knockdowns, Air is better at conditions and disruption, and Water is better than snares, but Earth will give you conditions, knockdowns and snares in one attribute with defense as well (otherwise only available to Water). That it doesn't do them all as well is the cost of versatility, but there are a limited number of slots in a party after all...