Curse

Catchphrase · Jul 23, 2009, 05:46 AM // 05:46

^ Which is why I propose buffing end effects of short enchantments. Dervish should never be viewed as pure damage profession whereby their threat presence is felt by their damage alone. Their offense should comes in two forms: their attack skills and the end effects of their enchantments. Effects like daze, interruption, KD don't deal damage but they can inflict high amounts of pressure for a short time on opposition. So while they don't do as much damage as warriors, they are harder to be shutdown since they have alternative means to inflict pressure.

Secondly the "ripping" style of play aren't exactly overpowered as it required an enchantment and a "ripping" skill to trigger the effects. This allows opposition to have ample opportunity to interrupt the chain. Whats more, the desired enchantment to be ripped has to be on top of the enchantment stack which the opposition can rend before the dervish is adjacent to his target. This in turn enforces tactical play focusing more on positioning and timing of enchantment removals.

Reverend Dr · Jul 24, 2009, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

2) most derv enchantments to fuel such play are pretty useless in terms of the beginning and end effects, and the recharge is terribly high

Mysticism used to be a lot stronger in its passive effect. Enchants as such used to have much faster recharges and stronger effects. But anyone that played during the Nightfall beta will remember just how terrible this can become.

I don't know how much was broken and fixed before we saw the open beta, but an alpha group that couldn't catch something like that would seem to be an alpha group that doesn't understand the game. By the time the beta came out there wasn't enough time to redesign dervishes, so by and large all of the enchantment based attributes (earth, wind, mysticism) were toned down to the point that they were practically unusable.

Axel Zinfandel · Jul 24, 2009, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Mysticism used to be a lot stronger in its passive effect. Enchants as such used to have much faster recharges and stronger effects. But anyone that played during the Nightfall beta will remember just how terrible this can become.

I don't know how much was broken and fixed before we saw the open beta, but an alpha group that couldn't catch something like that would seem to be an alpha group that doesn't understand the game. By the time the beta came out there wasn't enough time to redesign dervishes, so by and large all of the enchantment based attributes (earth, wind, mysticism) were toned down to the point that they were practically unusable.

Looking at the recharge now, they seem fine (or could use a couple seconds shred off). I think the trouble lays within the casting time and usefulness of said enchantments.

Perhaps if the enchantments had a 1/4th second cast time, and useful effects WHILE they are up (Damage buff, other utility).

Another problem is that most of the dervish attack skills do not remove enchantments, or do not require removal, AND the recharge difference between attack skills and said enchantments do not mesh, so players are not able to fully rely on the one enchantment. Maybe if more attack skills relied on enchantment removal (but were buffed to compensate), and the recharge and effect of some enchantments were made more friendly to use with the attack skills.

I like the concept of enchantment-fueled attack skills, but only if I were able to use say, one dervish enchantment for every two attack skills...and I'm not talking mechanics, I'm talking recharge. say two attack skills have an 8 second recharge. I would want to only have to use say one enchantment with say a 4 second recharge. I don't want to have to choose which attack skill I want to use just because the enchantment has such a long recharge

draxynnic · Jul 24, 2009, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

1) You cannot attack while casting enchantments, so DPS goes down and players shy away from using enchantments productively.

This is counteracted by the fact that a significant portion of Dervish enchantments either apply damage or conditions to surrounding foes when used, so you get the damage back that way. Plus, Dervishes don't have adrenal skills, so unless you're going /W or /P you don't need to worry about losing damage through casting enchantments rather than attacking (although multi-attack with a scythe does help a lot if you DO want to use adrenal skills, you're probably better off as a W/D or P/D if that's what you really want to do).

The numbers may render the playstyle uncompetitive at the moment, but the principle is sound.

Reverend Dr · Jul 24, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Looking at the recharge now, they seem fine (or could use a couple seconds shred off). I think the trouble lays within the casting time and usefulness of said enchantments.

Of course they are fine now, their recharge had been increased by 3-4 times and the effects about halved. We know that these skills can reach a terribly imbalanced place if they are buffed enough, so let's buff em

The enchant stack/removing is really going to be worthless or overpowered. There so very little room for it to exist in a balanced state. Trying to find and hit that perfect little spot, by buffing/reworking current dervish skills, is just begging for trouble.

Dervishes have needed a complete rework since the very beginning, though this is just something that they are not going to get.

reaper with no name · Jul 25, 2009, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Ordinarily, I wouldn't mind breaking earth and wind prayers, because if something is equally broken for multiple professions, then there's still balance. This is basically what PvE "balance" comes down to currently, anyway; everyone gets broken stuff.

However, dervishes currently don't have a lot of broken stuff. And the few broken things they do have (a very good weapon, AoHM) are equally abusable by other professions, while they get to take advantage of their broken stuff that a D/X can't get. So, give the D/X (and ONLY the D/X) more broken stuff to level the playing field.

Or, better yet, give them a niche. Make it so that D/Xs have something that no A/D or W/D can get; something that will give them a place in any party. Make Vow of Silence a usable skill. Rework the other avatars to have utility effects like AoM and AoD (maybe change AoB to just give 75% block chance, and AoG just inflict random conditions with each attack, and AoL just steal 2 energy per hit). Make Mysticism give an innate chance of hostile spells against you failing, or something (hmmm...you know, I'd definitely trade energy management for a 2% chance per rank of hostile spells failing against me). Anything, so long as it's something that makes you go "wow, the only way I can do that is if I go D/X". That's the key.

dusanyu · Jul 25, 2009, 08:59 AM // 08:59

nothing Is stopping a Dervish from going /W and using the Only maintainable IAS in the game in fact it is a no attribute skill

Embrace the Majesty that is frenzy

PVE side Anet gave us all a maintainable IAS?/IMS with drunken master nothing stops a dervish from using it

Racthoh · Jul 25, 2009, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusanyu

nothing Is stopping a Dervish from going /W and using the Only maintainable IAS in the game in fact it is a no attribute skill

Embrace the Majesty that is frenzy

PVE side Anet gave us all a maintainable IAS?/IMS with drunken master nothing stops a dervish from using it

Nothing stopping the dervs from running Flail either.

EDIT: Didn't realize they changed the scaling on Flail.

refer · Jul 25, 2009, 09:45 AM // 09:45

I think Dervishes are maybe too hard to balance... the whole enchantment thing used for energy and side effects of enchantments seems way too far out to me. I've never tried it, but as a general rule, do you usually WANT your enchantments removed? And if you weren't a dervish, you would never end up using those enchantment removal skills either. Then factor in Monks maybe messing up that chain.

Master Ketsu · Jul 25, 2009, 11:18 AM // 11:18

The bonus Mysticism gives is fine. It needs no buff ( does anyone remember the NF beta? Holy f**king sh*t. ) What dervs need is a buff to many Mysticism skills, because a lot of them suck *cough* Arcane Zeal *cough*.

IMO All the forms should be split into PvP versions that are slightly weaker but perma-maintainable. Forms act too much like World of Warcraft skills IE Big effect but significant downtime making them lame.

draxynnic · Jul 25, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Nothing stopping the dervs from running Flail either.

Apart from the fact that without a Strength investment, Flail now only lasts for a second.

Regarding Frenzy... Frenzy is generally bad in PvE since any frontliner is probably going to be attracting some kind of firepower often enough to make it dicey to use, and if you use a cancel stance, you're using two skill slots (unless that's a stance you want to have anyway, of course, but that requires having another stance you want some of the time but not all of the time).

Drunken Master might be a better option, especially if you're working on the title simultaneously, but since most dervishes carry AoHM and Eternal Aura then that pretty much ties down your PvE slots.

dusanyu · Jul 25, 2009, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Nothing stopping the dervs from running Flail either.

well except for that whole one second duration at 0 str thing

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Regarding Frenzy... Frenzy is generally bad in PvE since any frontliner is probably going to be attracting some kind of firepower often enough to make it dicey to use, and if you use a cancel stance, you're using two skill slots (unless that's a stance you want to have anyway, of course, but that requires having another stance you want some of the time but not all of the time).

Frenzy is fine in pve just learn to frenzy

the fact remains that for balance reasons all IAS skills carry a strong drawback (except for the lame PvE ones) they are either not on demand and carry something like an ends if X condition is met require investment in a Lousy attribute point (read DPS loss) and those that are on demand carry such harsh personalty as Double damage received and self snare or reduction on base damage by 25%)

Bareing this in mind giving the dervish the Kind of IAS they are asking for would give the dervish an unfair advantage over other Melee classes.

I am going to dare say the Dervish is Fine, the fact that the assassin and the ranger outshine the dervish in scythe usage (even at lower invest in the weapon attribute) indicates an issue with the other classes not the dervish. it is expertise and critstrikes that needs addressing

Expertise should be reworked so it only effect ranger bow attacks, ranger skills and self targeted touch skills (this would end the ranger as the Gimmick platform de jour)

Critstrikes should only effect daggers skills that are contrary to this fact need to be reworked

reaper with no name · Jul 26, 2009, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Drunken Master technically requires consumables to be effective (of course, alcohol is dirt cheap, but still), and more importantly, it uses up a PvE slot that would have been used for Asuran Scan, Mental Block, or any of several other useful skills.

Giving dervishes a great IAS would not be giving them an unfair advantage because they are currently at a disadvantage. In fact, it's a disadvantage so large that even a perma-IAS with no downsides would still not be enough for a dervish to beat out a warrior or assassin at scythery. The dervish was given scythe mastery for a reason; it is supposed to be the best at it. But it isn't.

Besides, warriors and assassins have "unfair" advantages already. Critical strikes giving superior energy management to mysticism AND a big combat boost? Incredibly unfair. Warriors getting skills like Power Attack, that easily beat out the best attack skills a dervish can bring to the table? Unfair. Warriors needing only 1 armor-increasing skill to tank as well as an AoB dervish (who burns his elite AND a pve skill for armor)? Totally unfair.

But guess what? The dervish doesn't have any "unfair" advantages of his own to counteract the unfair advantages Warriors and Assassins get. So who really has the unfair advantage here?

Heck, RITUALISTS can use scythes better than dervishes. That's how much dervishes suck with scythes; a caster can beat them at it. This is inexcusable.

And that's why just nerfing critical strikes or strength is not the fix needed. Because there is not one but several professions that can beat the dervish at the very thing it was designed to do. It's much easier to buff one class than to nerf several (in this case, it would mean at least 4x as much tweaking and 4x as much chance for unintended side effects).

Reverend Dr · Jul 26, 2009, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

because if something is equally broken for multiple professions, then there's still balance.

For all of their faults, at least Anet has given up on this notion.

draxynnic · Jul 27, 2009, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Personally, I find Drunken Master to be quite usable even without alcohol. It may be a smaller boost, but that boost also comes with an IMS that can be useful in and of itself and which provides some bar compression. Of course, sometimes another PvE slot is simply more valuable... but sometimes it isn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusanyu

Frenzy is fine in pve just learn to frenzy

Do you mean 'learn WHEN to frenzy'? At which point, well, you're probably not maintaining it anyway, although I'd admit it is a good way to punish the AI for going for the monk instead of you.

Reverend Dr · Jul 27, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I find Drunken Master to be quite usable even without alcohol.

It costs only 5 energy every 90 or so seconds. Even without alcohol it is so damned energy/adren efficient. Anything else is just going to have a much larger cost.

IronSheik · Jul 27, 2009, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Hell, we're talking about PvE, buy some damn consumables if you actually need one. My guardian/vanq build didn't even use an IAS, just 3 attack skills with activation times which acts like an IAS in itself.

reaper with no name · Jul 27, 2009, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Ok, fine, let's assume you have Drunken Master and have enough alcohol to keep it continuously working. Guess what? Warriors and Assassins STILL beat the dervish at using scythes. Easily. Shouldn't that say something about how underpowered the dervish is? Even when you stack the odds in his favor, he still falls short of other classes at his primary strength.

Seriously, I don't see how there's any argument here. Dervishes suck with scythes. Warriors, Assassins, Rangers, and Ritualists were not meant to be better at scything than dervishes, just like Assassins were not meant to be better at swording than warriors, and elementalists were not meant to be better archers than rangers, and monks were not meant to be better minion masters than necromancers. Therefore, something needs to be done to make the dervish the best scythe wielder. That's all there is to it. It's one of the more glaring balance issues in the game, second only to horrendous screwups like SF and ER.

FireWhale · Jul 27, 2009, 09:50 AM // 09:50

wouldn't it make more sense to meld earth and wind prayers into more powerful support skills for scyth-ing? Like added damage or more effects.

Awex Mafyews · Jul 27, 2009, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Dervs can still deal out a fair amount of damage, probably more than an axe or sword warrior from my experiences of both.

The derv forms can make them pretty formidable in PvE although the lack of an IAS does limit them some what. Also the secondary attributes need to be made more useful to a dervish in general PvE, atm they don't seem to sync at all with scythe mastery and Mysticism.

Also if I was to have a ranger in my group I'd rather have them interrupting and condition spreading than using a scythe, and if I was to take a assassin...well actually I just wouldn't take one...ever

Only class I think uses a scythe better is probably warriors for many reasons.