Curse

TedTheShred · Nov 28, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

In my mind, the steep learning curve in Eve is somewhat of a misconception. I see it as a tool the Dev's put in place to foster a sense of community. With eve, the learning curve is what forces players to seek out other players for help.

With such an emphasis on community, and the sheer importance of players at every level, it is quite beneficial to everyone for older players to build relationships with fledgling players and bring them into their group. Corporations have even gone to the point of putting together Eve Universities, where a group of older players train newer recruits so that they may contribute to the corp in a way that is both beneficial to the group, and fun for the player. There was even an article near the genesis of G-Dub that touched on these principals. The line read something along the lines of "we would like to create a game where a Level 1 character with far greater skill could outmatch a fully leveled player still struggling with technique." This never came to fruition, and while lowering the level cap to 20 did take a step closer to this basic principal, it only really skimmed over this idea.

Skills could be handled in a variety of ways, based on a number of already laid out concepts. Perhaps you train certain skills over time, taught to you by a skill trainer. Others are acquired simply by purchase. Others, still, are captured from enemies scattered in areas across the globe. Some could be awarded to you after completing missions for NPC's.

On the issue of pvp, I find that MMO's have come to this bizarre conclusion that PVP and PVE need to be two separate entities in one game. The entire idea behind a world where players only interact in sanctioned situations, ( ie. Guild battles, or pvp parties ) then in every other situation seem to exist in parallel universes.

Such is the pitfall of the linear progression style of MMO. The idea that one cohesive story is thrust upon a living breathing community is somewhat strange. The thought that each person has the same exact set of goals going into a game is unrealistic, but for some reason, the idea that a story and experience is thrust upon us rather than players building one themselves still prevails. We simply have no impact on the world. This is where Eve has excelled. For the most part, they simply set rules. Each player must adhere to the same set of laws, not unlike gravity, however the players evolve the world around them.

If you look at each of the ideas in articles and statements, these basic principals are obviously in the minds of the dev team, but I fear they are still somewhat clinging to the everquest basics. They NEED to distance themselves from the antiquated linear MMO in order to make the game we would all dream about.

Balan Makki · Nov 28, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedTheShred

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=453

Here is a great article.

I believe that many of the points of this article reflect so wonderfully what Guild Wars originally set out to do. Each of these points are touched upon in pre-release statements from prophecies. Other points were explored in later chapters, ( factions ). Others, still, are mentioned in recent mission statements regarding GW2.

The difference is that G-Dub simply did not take these ideas as far as the article suggests. It skimmed the surface, but was held back by clinging to the linear concepts so firmly rooted in the fantasy MMO.

Give it a look over, and just imagine Guild Wars in such an iteration.

Nice article, but this guy obviously hasn't played GW. Many of Blizzards better employees left during WoWs early development, for reasons such as these. Currently GW is horizontal -- a fully playable world -- once you've spent a few weeks completing main storyline -- it is Evecraft. . . I agree that GW2's Persistent World should use these similarities more fully -- Much, Much more.

The difference arises in PvP vs PvE, and can be handled very simply with PvP Phasing into a pseudo instance The Mists. See my GW2 Suggestions a few pages back. Giving Resources and other rewards, etc for playing in the Mists instance . .

This also adds a very nice feature that GW2 would benefit from: Getting players to buy the game early because of the Aging mechanics. Each new expansion/release for GW2, could reset, balance up the Aging mechanism -- to level the playing field once in a while.

TedTheShred · Nov 28, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Nice article, but this guy obviously hasn't played GW. Many of Blizzards better employs left during WoWs early development, for reasons such as these. Currently GW is horizontal -- a fully playable world -- once you've spent a few weeks completing main storyline -- it is Evecraft. . . I agree that GW2's Persistent World should use these similarities more fully -- Much, Much more.

My irk with the comment that "once you've spent a few weeks completing the main storyline -- it is Evecraft" is that it is taken as an afterthought. Any qualities that could be correlated between the article and the post-completion environment are seriously hampered. What needs to happen is for this kind of game to be the focus of the game, not a half-baked eventuality with no room for growth.

Essentially, whatever similarities you could pick up between the article and the post-game G-Dub are weak, undeveloped, and effect in no way the world around, which is the focus of the article.

By the way, I LOVE the idea of a fog rolling across environments, carrying with it a gaggle of baddies.

majistro · Nov 28, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

I had an idea for an expansion that could come out some time after gw2 has been released. Many people don't like the idea of having to "abandon" their old gw characters. Also, many wish that they could see what utopia could of been like. My idea is a merging of the two.

What would happen if the destined heroes never came? In the expansion, your gw2 character would be able to learn of a new continent that holds information on defeating the dragons, but is being currently overrun with some kind of enemy, I was thinking an army of beings devoted to the dragons of old. Anyway, your hero would sail on over to utopia, and upon arriving, they would discover that there is nothing they can do to help the situation. They then would meet some old corsair woman who would tell them that in order to save the present, they must go to the past. Then your hero would be made to go to the last remaining chronomancer alive and then have access to the past.

This is where your old gw1 character could be played. My idea for this is that if the person playing gw2 has a gw1 account, they would be able to play their character for these time missions, which would mean that the character would have access to a certain area in utopia in the past and have access to all of the items on their character but not in their storage, this is just to make implementation easier. Basically, the old character would somehow find out they need to go to utopia, find a way to get their via help from their descendant, and then would begin doing these time missions.

What would happen is that as your old hero completes these missions in the past, your hero in the present would get to see the benefits. For example, fewer enemies, more allies, kind of like the outpost in nightfall but better. Eventually, your ancestor would complete their time missions and would open up all of utopia for your present gw2 character and would also give your account access to the corsair and chronomancer classes.

Now if someone doesn't have a gw1 account, then they would get a preset character like in the bonus mission pack or get to make a character like pvp but will have access to all of the skills so as to make it more fun. Also, if the character wanting to do this wasn't human, maybe they would get to make/control a human character or a character that is of their own race, except for the sylvari obviously.
Comments? Ideas?

Macktastrophy · Nov 28, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Actually, after reading the evercraft article....it got me thinking about the time based skills....obviously. Anyway, what if the GW1 characters could pass down their "knowledge" of skills and thus cut down the time it would take to learn new skills. Probably already posted before....

TedTheShred · Nov 28, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macktastrophy

Actually, after reading the evercraft article....it got me thinking about the time based skills....obviously. Anyway, what if the GW1 characters could pass down their "knowledge" of skills and thus cut down the time it would take to learn new skills. Probably already posted before....

I really like that.

There is something about the student/master relationship that I find intriguing, and it could lend it's self to skill acquisition in an interesting way. This could also be a unique way to connect the two games even more. Perhaps you run into a significantly aged character in the game, their descendant, or even a relative to your own character.

This person could over time or through quests teach you a set of unique skills based on which skills you unlocked in the previous game.

TedTheShred · Nov 29, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

It really is daunting to go through a thread that is a third of the way to 100 pages, and really will not reach any kind of plateau. We, as the community, desire our voices heard, so that Guild Wars 2 can be the game that it can be.

I'm all for consolidation, and the fact that this thread is stickied is nice, but there comes a point where going through the thread is no longer feasible. The recycling of ideas then becomes evident, thoughtful discussion on one idea then overshadows all others. Simply put, there is a point where consolidation to one thread fails, and compartmentalization is required.

This thread needs to migrate to a new section: the Guild Wars 2 section. Ideas, then, can be discussed individually and thoroughly. Browsing through concepts that have been discussed in length becomes easier, and other sections will be void of GW2 chattering.

GW:EN has been experienced wholly by a large section of the community at this point, and many would like to look forward to our GW future.

I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds or violating any rules by bringing this up, but I believe it needs to be said.

Macktastrophy · Nov 29, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Agreed........

Sheena Inverse · Nov 29, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

First I just want to say well done to everyone who has brought forth good ideas, and BAH! to some of the bad ones lol.. such as the "lets make this more like wow" post. Although I've been playing GW for over 2 years and have logged around 3,000 hours I only recently came to guru forums, thus today is first time I've seen this thread. I don't have the time to read all 600+ posts but i breezed through much of it and heres what I have.

Firstly and above all else Auction House or at least individual player Bazars, (shops) anyone who has played FF11 online knows how they work, you can be afk and anything you have in inventory can have a price set on it in your personal bazar so players can click on your toon while your away and buy from you for preset price.

Secondly I vote NO to any form of GW1 player becoming permanently playable GW2 player. Its been hundreds of years, your dead get over it. However I love the idea of being able to someway "commune" with your ancestors, like in the hall of heros or something, and be able to take quests from them through which you learn some of their skills.

Thirdly, I do think that player gear from GW1 should be somehow transferable to GW2 such as you come into your ancestors HoM and there you find a decayed spider web covered sword, sheild, armor ect. You would have to take to a refurbishing NPC he gives you a simple quest to get some materials and he then refurbishes the equip at its core value. However you would need to upgrade new mods since the old ones would have decayed away or something to that end. The gear would have the "potential" of being great again just as it was for your ancestor. This would not necessarily be something you could do right away either. You might just start off with a "momento" of your ancestor such as a headgear item that was kept as a family heirloom, that you could use at start in low lvls, but once you where old enough/strong enough you could track down your ancestors "legacy" which would be the armor or weapons.

Those are my thoughts, I just feel there should be a clear separation from GW1 and 2, a fresh start with new heros, but with the potential of handmedowns so to say. Any ideas of "oh my toon was in eternal sleep untill he/she was needed again" or w/e are just silly.

Sheena Inverse · Nov 29, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Sorry for the doublepost.

I forgot also to say that the one thing that realy took away from the community of GW1 was the hench and heros. Not requiring real people to accomplish 90% of what was in the game realy took away from the potential for higher comradery in the game. You met less people and made fewer lasting friends because of it imo. I would suggest no hench at all, keep heros but limit it to only one hero companion may acompany each real player at any time. And heros would not be till later in game, also mounts would be available later on.

Ok, I think thats all this time... ty

papyrus · Nov 29, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Suggestion for GW 2:
================
Some ppl likes to linger for a long time in the training area and they even stay there and level their char to level 20.
Why not create a similar training area in GW 2 and enhance it a little more like Diablo style. I meant, why not add the following features to the training area:
- The area is more for a PvM but...
- The area also allows PvP (for low level, mid level, high level, merc duel games)
- The area has limited number of items including high power items (50 or so) where ppl can farm them through magic finding, rune words, upgrade, sockets, enhancement, boss run, etc.
- The area has limited skill sets but complex enough and powerfull enough (if combine with the high power items) to kill bosses in 1 player game. The purpose is to let ppl do the farming for specific items.
- The area is a little more generous for giving out the high level items, runes, enhancement, etc.
- The area has its own story and goals. The purpose is to make the char more powerful when it reach certain goal (more resistance, more attributes, more skills, etc.)
- The area allow the char to get marry with other char, have babies, raise them, etc.
- Once the chars leave the training area, all their high power items and skill sets become obsolete or become a so-so items/skills. Purpose is to create a story that the world (game) is huge and a small island hero is just another regular char in the game world.

So what is the point to this suggestion? some ppl like me gets overwhelm quickly with the massive items and skills to find/achieve from one patch to another. I like to play PvM (solo player) but at the same time need some goals/challenges to make me continue to play.

The current training area in GW 1 does not make me want to stay there forever (no powerful item, boss, etc.) but at the same time the non training area does not give me the incentives to continue to play either (too complex, too many items, must party on some quests, etc.)

What make people continue to play? challenges and goals. If ppl can focus their farming on limited items and the possibility to get them is not bad..... they will continue to play. Give some stories to create goals. Limit the high power items so ppl can focus clearly on what they want to get to make their chars powerful in this small island (training area). Once they have achieved their goal to become the elite dueler (low, mid, high level), the elite merc, the fastest runner, the 1000% damage reduction char, the unbeatable char in PvM, etc., they can still go out of the island and start over (including playing in guild, party, etc.) in the actual realms or visit their old char in the island once a while. With this features, the training area will be a real fun place to train my char and stay there forever if I want to.

Don't forget for every patch you release, please add more stories to the training areas for goals, items, challenges to make a unique char, etc. This way, I will want to continue to buy the patch too .

Macktastrophy · Nov 30, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Tweak out the training area? Eh.....If you want to spend your time their lvling, have at it. Lets not waste resources and dev time on it tho...

Nornagest · Nov 30, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

I really wish for the Tengu as a playable race.

IMHO they are the coolest race so far and there is already quite some background for them. As much as I am looking forward to playing a Charr, a Tengu Ranger would be even nicer.

On most things I trust ANet not to mess up the things GW made a really great game.

Onarik Amrak · Nov 30, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nornagest

I really wish for the Tengu as a playable race.

IMHO they are the coolest race so far and there is already quite some background for them. As much as I am looking forward to playing a Charr, a Tengu Ranger would be even nicer.

On most things I trust ANet not to mess up the things GW made a really great game.

Agreed. They're featured in the BMP as well. Another reason they should be playable!

Qdq Swi · Nov 30, 2007, 01:01 PM // 13:01

20 level cap is too low.. but 70 is too high.. go for a medium... 30-40... dont want gw2 to be like WoW now do we?!

papyrus · Nov 30, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

How about if player is allowed to level their char up to 70-100 or whatever in the training area then once they leave the training area, their level will be capped into 30-40 or whatever suitable.

The training area can be made to match up the WOW or D2 style and for players who likes to play in that environment. If Anet can provide both environments (GW and WoW/D2) in their game, it will attract more people to play.

Onarik Amrak · Nov 30, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

A level is just a number. It's meaningless unless there's a scale.

Would you prefer 100 levels that takes 30 hours to attain?
Or 20 levels that also takes 30 hours?
Perhaps 30 levels that takes 100 hours?

Know what I mean? Although people have a propensity towards big numbers...

Taurucis · Nov 30, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Don't smack me or anything, but if there's one thing I'd love to see in GW2, it would be non-combat stuff.

IMHO, what makes an RPG an RPG is the non-combat things - look at Runescape (ducks behind shield) look at Morrowind and Oblivion, look at WoW... all of them have stuff you can do that doesn't require you to kill. Well maybe not Oblivion... But Guild Wars doesn't have anything like that. A role-player, casual or hardcore, can't decide to sit down in the inn and crack open a book while sipping ale. It's just fighting, fighting, fighting - and the occasional holiday event.

I would love to see things like perhaps... Cooking, Fishing, Mining, Smithing, maybe even Farming (for fruits and vegetables) implemented. Of course they wouldn't be required to advance in major storylines but they could be a way of making money and a way to kick back and relax... Some ingame books that you can read would be nice - although they'd have to be prewritten and uneditable, I doubt players would like to read a book entitled "AErhiaeg9whg4ghgah" that has 50 pages of the same.

Also, another thing I would like for GW2 is no binding of races/genders to classes. I should be free to have a Norn Elementalist as much as you should be able to make an Asuran Warrior. A lot of those Korean MMOs abuse the "gender-class bindings" and a lot of people don't like them... and GW1 doesn't have gender-class bindings, so logically GW2 shouldn't either.

Finally: Margonites in GW2. I love Margonites. Big, fluffy, friendly Margonites.

papyrus · Nov 30, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

I would love to see things like perhaps... Cooking, Fishing, Mining, Smithing, maybe even Farming (for fruits and vegetables) implemented. Of course they wouldn't be required to advance in major storylines but they could be a way of making money and a way to kick back and relax... Some ingame books that you can read would be nice - although they'd have to be prewritten and uneditable, I doubt players would like to read a book entitled "AErhiaeg9whg4ghgah" that has 50 pages of the same.

This is the more reasons why ANET should add more features into the training area. Entertain these casual players by adding more features in the training area and yet limit the area/items/skills etc. so that ANET does not have to allocate to many resources to develop it.

warcrap · Dec 01, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

make tiny little flying mounts like giant beetles that jump up into the air then glides until it hits the ground and speedy mounts for when we dont wanna fight the annoying mounts we just run right past them.
i also hope we get the lovely guild castle seige like in the dieing game of lineage 2.

r.i.p lineage and lineage 2.

and will there ever be a gw tcg because it looks liike there should because the skills system.

also i think gw2 should be just a smidge more gear dependent i mean seriously theres no point in saving money for real good armor and i think it should be more show-offable like taking weapons into towns
btw i hope gw2 will just be one big area instead of it being seperated by towns,outpost,and everywhere else(freaking load screens)
i also hope gw makes a movie before wow does.
oh and the event system sounds cool like a dragon destroying a bridge but it should be bigger like a huge ass monster walking slowly to a town and you have to go pay for a group of troopers to help hold back the monster to give time for other players to set a trap that can kill the monster and if they fail a town is destroyed and you and other players have to pitch in money to get it rebuilt then you have to protect the builders from other monsters and harsh weather conditions and theives then when there done you have to pay them and if u cant pay them they attack you and then you have to help defeat them...well thats as far as i can think lol =).
i also think there should be an economy dictated by items created with the use of non combat professions like this

weapon smith:you can create you can create and decorate your own unique peices of armor and weapons and then sell or keep them.

spell crafting:like for mages you create piece of jewel shard that you equip that personally unlocks a spell or you can sell the jewel shard.

mining and woodcutting:i know what your thinking grab an axe chop a tree and run to the bank..no!! how about like you use a spell you unlocked that you shoot a magic beam at a tree and get like 50-100 logs and make them stack in your inventory and make spells were you can hit more than one tree like you shot a tree or a rock and the spell keeps bouncing off more trees or rocks then you get more material and you can use it to create things i said in weapon smith profession.

oh and no game is right without fishing, since theres gonna be swimming it should be like you go into a deep sea and use a spell that sucks in the fish to your bag and it could be a huge underwater area then you can use the fish to temporarily power up your attribues or temporarily boost your max health in battle or to lure big monsters with rare drops.

player owned housing:this would be a nice feature and a chance for anet to create alot of offical contests with it.

hunting:like you go buy a book with a boat load of monsters in it then you have to go either take a picture of that monsters or kill it and bring back a peice of evidence from it.

player owned boats:lets say for intercontinental sea travel and battling we can you use materials to make a boat and use it to fish travel or fight players like arm your ship to launch magical beams or you can anchor your ship and jump off it to go underwater.

im suggesting non combat professions because we do need a break in this game from the usual fight fight fight hunting farming pvp etc.

also i think gw2 should inherit a feature from aion were you can fly temporarily without a mount to reach high places or fight flying monsters or mid flight pvp.

and how are expansions and mini expansions gonna work i mean im happy their dropping the stand alone campaigns but what if its like this, 10 mini expansions have been released then they take the first 5 off the stores gw2 should not be like L2 with severly unfrequent updates but mini expansions are gonna be weird and some people cant make online purchases and have to buy stuff from the store.

and btw does guild wars 1 have 4 million players or did they just sell 4 mil boxes like one person buying all 4 gw boxes there should be a player count when we are logging in for example

there are 2 people playing!
there are two people playing!
and many people think guildwars.com is to empty and there is really no reason to even visit it just to see the news real quick then go to another site make it with more features like screenshot of the day an online forum and some other stuff(for website ideas look at igg.com and click their games anet will get good ideas of what to put on the website)
also their should be a meter saying this many gw sales until we hit 5million.

and gw2 should have alot of cool minigames like rs.

and please dont make an unlimited lvl cap make it like 100 so we can have a big goal to look up to then increase the lvl cap by 10 every 2-4 years.

and wtf i hate it that only rangers can have pets its extremely unfair and an advantage for only them i love having in-game pets(WoW) but i hate the weak and scrawny ranger class elementalist and mesmer are my cup of tea

btw is it true that anet is losing all their devs and employees to other dev studios arena.net should be updated because the employee list seems kinda outdated and there should be something on top of the list saying
arena net currently has ??? employees.

well good luck with gw2 i hope i can cup up with more ideas.