Curse

madriel222 · Sep 14, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

I like the idea of permitting classes to play closer to their archetype in HM. This is a step in the right direction, but like others have said, it's a step that would need to be considered on an individual-monster basis.

Xx Da Best Xx · Sep 14, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Aww...But then sliver armor wont be so good! Does that mean we'd have to use an actual build to clear uw?

waeland · Sep 15, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by madriel222

I like the idea of permitting classes to play closer to their archetype in HM. This is a step in the right direction, but like others have said, it's a step that would need to be considered on an individual-monster basis.

Agreed - best change would be to have in HM some monster with high armor (even better with more difference in armor levels for different damage types than now) and other with the same armor as NM but but great life bonus. This would add more diversity promoting to adapt builds for different areas and also mixed groups. But again, I doubt Anet is going to do any HM rebalancing. They have very ambitious plans ahead considering manpower assigned for GW1 which I see as mixed blessing. So, most what have sense to propose is to transfer part of HM armor bonus to life bonus. BTW this is not only issue for eles, warriors would benefit from this change also a lot (but not so much as eles).

Swahnee · Sep 15, 2009, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by waeland

Agreed - best change would be to have in HM some monster with high armor (even better with more difference in armor levels for different damage types than now) and other with the same armor as NM but but great life bonus. This would add more diversity promoting to adapt builds for different areas and also mixed groups. But again, I doubt Anet is going to do any HM rebalancing. They have very ambitious plans ahead considering manpower assigned for GW1 which I see as mixed blessing. So, most what have sense to propose is to transfer part of HM armor bonus to life bonus. BTW this is not only issue for eles, warriors would benefit from this change also a lot (but not so much as eles).

I agree with this idea: maybe make the HM casters have a lot of HP, but 60 AL, and Warriors, Paragons, etc would have a lot of AL but not so much HP, or something like this.

However, these will probably remain only ideas for the reasons you posted. But i wanted to say another thing: i think that, even if this would be implemented, and in theory characters like elementalists would be more efficient changing their build according to the monsters they will face etc, i'm sure that in practice very few people would do these kinds of thoughts.

I know a lot of people who use the exact same nuker build in both NM and HM, and if somebody asks them which character deals the biggest damage in HM, they will answer: the fire elementalist (without PvE skills i mean), because the HM PvE never asked them to understand the difference between armor-ignoring damage and physical/elemental damage, because they were still able to do whatever they wanted to do with those old NM builds.

Obviously, everyone is free to play as he likes, but what i'm saying is that, even with these suggested changes, HM would be very easy, you would roll through it even with a fire ele against a high-armored HM boss. So IMHO this wouldn't make people think more about which build to bring against which kind of foe, because they are not forced to do this. Only a few who like this kind of gameplay would do it, but these are the people who already think about armors, adapting builds etc.

To really promote build adapting etc., you have to force people to use armor ignoring damage against high armored foes, and physical/elemental damage against low armored foes, etc. This means that if you made bad mistakes while choosing your skills, it will be very hard to kill your mobs (not impossibile, but simply more difficult). However, i don't know how it could be implemented.

In this way, every class would have different roles in the party: when facing a particular kind of mobs, for example, elementalist would be the damage dealers, and necors the support members, and vice versa when facing other kind of mobs.

But if you let HM be doable by every class with almost every build (i remember that someone posted here on guru a screenshot with him beating Hell's Precipice in HM with only Res Signet in his bar, or something like this), thanks to discordway, permasins etc, all this discussion is pointless IMHO, or it's only interesting for those people who like to think about builds, and not only grind titles or farm ectos.

Gill Halendt · Sep 15, 2009, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

In this way, every class would have different roles in the party: when facing a particular kind of mobs, for example, elementalist would be the damage dealers, and necors the support members, and vice versa when facing other kind of mobs.

That's exactly how it works now, both in NM and HM. Enemy AC depends on profession and level. There's no such a thing like a "special" armor bonus for mobs when facing them in Hard Mode, it's just they're higher level and, consequently, they also have higher armor according to their level. Changing this would require the alteration of a basic game mechanic.

If you're trying to effectively kill a Lv30 Warrior boss with an Ele, you're doing it wrong.

waeland · Sep 15, 2009, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

There's no such a thing like a "special" armor bonus for mobs when facing them in Hard Mode, it's just they're higher level and, consequently, they also have higher armor according to their level. Changing this would require the alteration of a basic game mechanic.

We are aware of this fact. We propose basic game mechanic adjustment because at high levels it makes damage which does not ignore armor too ineffective.

Tenebrae · Sep 15, 2009, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

That's exactly how it works now, both in NM and HM. Enemy AC depends on profession and level. There's no such a thing like a "special" armor bonus for mobs when facing them in Hard Mode, it's just they're higher level and, consequently, they also have higher armor according to their level. Changing this would require the alteration of a basic game mechanic.

If you're trying to effectively kill a Lv30 Warrior boss with an Ele, you're doing it wrong.

Thats it , game mechs are like this :
The basic formula is: 3 * creature level + armor bonus.
When facing multiple lvl 28 or more foes , cracked armor is a must imo. It really smooooths VQ and general killing , even more with air eles .

Elephantaliste · Sep 15, 2009, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Hardmode is supposed to be hard... why nerf it ?
Lots of people even consider it too easy.

Actually, NM and HM got nerfed with all those cons and stones you can now use.

Gill Halendt · Sep 15, 2009, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by waeland

We are aware of this fact. We propose basic game mechanic adjustment because at high levels it makes damage which does not ignore armor too ineffective.

They're as effective as they're meant to be. What made Hard Mode harder than Normal Mode is higher level foes, and the need to cope with this.

There's a reason why some damage sources DO NOT ignore armor: they're balanced around other characteristics, be it lower cost of the skills (think of adrenaline, or cheap elementalist or ritualist spells), spammability, recharge times, damage dealt against lower level armor classes.

waeland · Sep 15, 2009, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

They're as effective as they're meant to be.

Well, than why exactly is neco meant to be great damage dealer trough whole game and ele is no longer meant to be damage dealer in HM?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

What made Hard Mode harder than Normal Mode is higher level foes, and the need to cope with this.

Than why present state it is fairly easy for armor-ignoring damage dealers and selectively hard for others?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

There's a reason why some damage sources DO NOT ignore armor: they're balanced around other characteristics, be it lower cost of the skills (think of adrenaline, or cheap elementalist or ritualist spells), spammability, recharge times, damage dealt against lower level armor classes.

You state obvious. Nobody speaks against this concept, we just thing some rebalancing is reasonable.

Gill Halendt · Sep 15, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by waeland

Well, than why exactly is neco meant to be great damage dealer trough whole game and ele is no longer meant to be damage dealer in HM?

Because Eles - who deal Elemental Damage, which incidentally is armor-sensitive - are meant to be less effective against high armored foes. Duh.

A necro - which is not that great as a damage dealer in a lot o situations as you think - has linear performance through the game. Armor-ignoring damage is pretty much fixed, you'll deal the very same damage for the whole game, be it against a Lv3 mob or a Lv30 boss in HM. You seem to forget that Elemental Damage is INCREASED when hitting lower armored foes, which are pretty common in the first half of all the three campaigns. Sorry if those aren't there in HM.

Armor-sensitive damage decreases in effectiveness when armor level increases. That's it, by design. You want to play an Ele? That's your strength at the beginning, and your weakness at the higher end of the game. Period. Don't like it? Not satisfied with your damage output? You've picked the wrong class.

Armor-ignoring damage is often dealt by hexes, which have drawbacks direct-damaging spells DON'T have. Hexes usually need triggers which might never occur, hexes can be removed, their duration can be shortened.

If armor level of foes in HM is decreased, then a rebalance of armor-sensitive damage to put it more in line with armor-ignoring damage through the rest of the game would be necessary. Or an increase of costs and recharges of those damage sources.

That would be a massive overhaul for no reasonable advantage, and the problem will still be there.

EDIT - BTW, I still don't see an advantage in decreasing armor while still increasing health of foes. In HM, that could be made by decreasing level of foes by 1 or 2. Big deal! As an Ele, that wouldn't change a thing - most Lv24-28 foes have too high armor for them to be effective nonetheless, even in NM - except you'll see slightly bigger numbers while still needing a lot of time to kill a foe.

waeland · Sep 15, 2009, 02:05 PM // 14:05

There is no need again stating obvious about game mechanics, we all share this knowledge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

A necro - which is not that great as a damage dealer in a lot o situations as you think - has linear performance through the game.

Necro has best of both words - until enemy armor is high the minion master is killing machine (as is ele). And then necro can switch to curses for armor ignoring damage and be super-effective damage dealer again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

You want to play an Ele? That's your strength at the beginning, and your weakness at the higher end of the game. Period.

My argument is reasonable expectation of players about choosen profession. Many people choose ele because they like role of AoE damage dealer. I see no good in forcing them out of this role in HM. I do not say nerf necro/smiters/dom.mesmers, it is great they can shine in HM, just do not make ele damage to be so much inferior. If you give no weight to this argument, well then sure there is no need to any proposed change. But how would for example monks feel if after some hypothetical change they would no longer be able to be effective healers or protectors in HM?

Gill Halendt · Sep 15, 2009, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by waeland

My argument is reasonable expectation of players about choosen profession. Many people choose ele because they like role of AoE damage dealer. I see no good in forcing them out of this role in HM. I do not say nerf necro/smiters/dom.mesmers, it is great they can shine in HM, just do not make ele damage to be so much inferior. If you give no weight to this argument, well then sure there is no need to any proposed change. But how would for example monks feel if after some hypothetical change they would no longer be able to be effective healers or protectors in HM?

The problem is, I see your point. Heck, my main is a Warrior, the reduction of damage I can deal in HM is evident to me as well. There's little to no solution to it tough: anything suggested here is either:

- Too complex to implement at this stage of the game.
- Game-breaking.

Going down to the basic design of the game now is out of question, so the only way your Ele could deal more damage is to reduce the level of the enemies encountered, which sounds ridicolous to me. And this is not a problem with HM, there was no "change" that suddenly made Ele worse, Lv20+ mobs can be found in NM as well, and they have the same AC of a comparable Lv20+ mob in HM. Eles are less effective in this case. Sorry, that's the drawback of this profession: its efficiency in dealing raw damage degrades as AC increases. That happens to Warriors, Ranger, Assassins, Ritualists (most of the Channelling Magic lines deals Lightning Damage), Paragons as well.

Eles are effective as "damage dealers" if you play them properly, even in HM. They're just less effective when compared to professions that CAN also deal armor-ignoring damage (you know a lot of Necro spells deal Cold Damage?), and that's because of a design characteristic.

There are a lot of options for you as an Ele: some spell have bonus AP, some spells even deal armor-ignoring damage (Obsidian Flame, to name one). Or, you could just play your Ele taking advantage of its full potential, inflicting conditions, snaring, knocking down. Which is their role in HM, a role that can hardly be covered by a Necro or a Mesmer as efficiently. Bingo! That's about it. Eles in GW are not "damage dealers" through and through. Wrong expectations with people, nothing wrong in the game to me.

There's much more than "damage" in this game. You're basically asking to put the whole game upside down to have the ability to deal some more "raw" damage with one single class, which to me doesn't make any sense.

waeland · Sep 15, 2009, 03:02 PM // 15:02

I will try to be as short as possible:
- replacing part of high level armor bonus with life bonus is neither hard to implement nor game breaking
- war/rangers/ass/para/rit all have better options to do armor ignoring damage then ele (bonus damage from melee attacks is mostly armor ignoring, barrage can be enhanced wit armor ignoring damage and so on....) Few ele armor-ignoring skills like obs. flame, 2x crystals, mirror of ice or energy burn have some use but have too much limits/drawbacks.
- please, do not again repeat obvious, we all know ele can be usefull in HM, we know damage dealing is not only role, we love AoE snares/KDs/interrups/blinds/wards ele can provide in HM. And of course monk/mesmer/necro can do much more than just damage in HM too.

Gill Halendt · Sep 15, 2009, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by waeland

I will try to be as short as possible:
- replacing part of high level armor bonus with life bonus is neither hard to implement nor game breaking

It probably is. It's basic code that drives the progression of AC with level increase. And won't change anything except the "yellow numbers" only you can see. Taking down an enemy with more health is gonna take more time, even if you deal more damage to him. That's unless those foes have a ridicule health bonus and a huge armor penalty, which would be indeed game-breaking.

Quote:

- war/rangers/ass/para/rit all have better options to do armor ignoring damage then ele (bonus damage from melee attacks is mostly armor ignoring, barrage can be enhanced wit armor ignoring damage and so on....) Few ele armor-ignoring skills like obs. flame, 2x crystals, mirror of ice or energy burn have some use but have too much limits/drawbacks.

There's just a couple armor-ignoring skills for the Warrior, and those are - surprise, surprise! - balanced with their pretty high cost. Not to mention they're hardly used, if at all.

Bonus damage from melee attacks is far from being "You deal 7...91 damage to foe and adjacent foes and knock them down". That's Meteor, an Ele skill. 5 energy. Which is balanced, thankfully, by dealing armor-sensitive damage. I've never hit a Lv28 foe for 100+ damage with Dragon Slash (+38 damage, elite skill) as much as I've never hit for 100+ on him with Meteor.

Ritualists have Spirit Spamming. Which, to me, is now OP and could use a revision. Yet you don't take a lot of factors into account: spirits launch projectiles, which can be blocked. Spirits target randomly, which can be annoying. Spirits are viable just because of some PvE-only skills (Summon Spirits) and are still quite fragile. Spirit Spamming pretty much needs a whole bar to work. So, there's a lot of drawbacks, hence they're quite balanced (excluding SoS, maybe, but that's the power creep of the month...)

Anything else you mention involves using a secondary - such as the Conjure Barrager. So, what impedes you from using Necro as a secondary to deal AoE Cracked Armor?

Quote:

- please, do not again repeat obvious, we all know ele can be usefull in HM, we know damage dealing is not only role, we love AoE snares/KDs/interrups/blinds/wards ele can provide in HM. And of course monk/mesmer/necro can do much more than just damage in HM too.

Doesn't seem that obvious to me, if you keep asking for more. What else do you want the Ele to do? Snares/KDs/Interrupts/Blinds/Wards, and godly damage as well?! That would be ridicolously unbalanced...

Ele do enough damage to me. They're not the best damage dealers in HM. That's because they're not supposed to, so I don't see a single reason why this is to change.

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 16, 2009, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Ritualists have Spirit Spamming. Which, to me, is now OP and could use a revision.

Unfortunately it is the Ritualist's only way of staying on par with other classes.

If you want us playing with groups, you kind of have to leave it as it is, or bring our other skills up in power. (Massive revision.)

Gill Halendt · Sep 16, 2009, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Unfortunately it is the Ritualist's only way of staying on par with other classes.

If you want us playing with groups, you kind of have to leave it as it is, or bring our other skills up in power. (Massive revision.)

Sure, I agree about this. It's the only way, but it's admitedly a pretty powerful one. Read further, I just think SoS could be detuned a bit, maybe: right now, it's fully-mantainable, it allows great bar compression, with no Energy cost. It's quite long lasting with relatively little recharge and activation times. No drawback and little to no counters. Just increasing its recharge to put it in line with the duration of the three spirits could do, IMO, but it's fine with me as it is anyway.

BTW, I believe this is not the right place to discuss this.

eonclipse · Sep 16, 2009, 09:01 AM // 09:01

check out the redway kath for some armor ignoring ele damage

Tenebrae · Sep 16, 2009, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Just being curious , what would be the change ? 2 armor per foe lvl and that bonus health what would be 10 ? 40 ? that will also reduce armor ignoring damage drastically ....... i just dont see it.

Cuilan · Sep 16, 2009, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

So, I suggest that the armor buffs monsters recieve in HM be removed, and that they instead be given a health buff equalling what they lose in armor. This would, in effect, make Elementalists and other users of non-armor-ignoring damage more viable in dealing damage without making the monsters more squishy otherwise (in fact, they would be even tougher vs armor-ignoring damage).

Or you can just work around it?

Mesmers had to deal with monsters having faster casting buff. Guess that should be removed, too.