Curse

MagmaRed · Oct 20, 2009, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

AB has never allowed heroes, so nothing is changing there. I don't see how your idea effects AB or heroes either one in regard to this, unless you want to suggest Anet allow heroes for AB.
That's why I chose it as an example. AB = no heroes, AB also = an eternity of waiting. I fear that other PvP will end up like that too. Remember that if a 6-man team can't start because they can't add 2 heroes, that is 6 players taken out of the equation right there. The formats concerned aren't exactly known for their PUGs, more for people from the same guild who work together well.

And for those poor PvE players who rely on heroes.... you idea is HORRID. Worst idea there is for a PvE player. If anything, the hero AI needs to be buffed as there are many things they fail at still that they shouldn't.
Aye, the AI needs a major buff in some places. I merely suggested a slight and very selective nerf. Slightly nerfing Mesmer heroes would also make using OTHER heroes more attractive.

But the replacement of heroes with hench is bad for 2 reasons (in my opinion). First is they are using meta builds which won't work for many teams and will be nerfed with skill changes.
This, but it also forces you to use standard builds, because you can't get the NPC's to support doing anything original.
Second is it is PvP.... which for those who forget is Player versus Player. If you want to play against NPCs, go do PvE.
I might have agreed with this if GW had a 10x larger player base, but it hasn't.

EDIT: Also, yes, I would love it if they allowed heroes in AB. This would mean people could play it whenever they wanted to, instead of only during AB weekend.

Slightly nerfing Mesmer heroes would also make using OTHER heroes more attractive.

I use Mesmer heroes a lot in PvE. Your slight nerf would make me not want to use them. You want changes for PvP, but what you suggest affects PvE as well.

If you can't find enough people to play any version of PvP (AB is what you mention) then you need to look harder. Change districts (Euro, American, International, etc.) and ask your guild/alliance. Although wait times may occur, I have never had to wait more than 15 minutes, and that was during an AB weekend where the place was over crowded.

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 20, 2009, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Suggestion: Nerf hero

I stopped reading right here.

/never signed, ever

Nechrond · Oct 21, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Do not double post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I stopped reading right here.

/never signed, ever

Some of you guys seem to think that admitting that you can't read more than a handful of words in one go ADDS to your credibility. If you don't read all I have to say, then don't bother replying. In case you worked on your reading skills a bit and are reading this post:

The motivation for banning heroes from PvP is that they're too good at certain things. If you think they're not, then the motivation is void and heroes shouldn't be banned. If you think they are, the logical solution would be a very selective nerf to the things they're too good at. If this could be paired with a buff to the things they're not good enough at, so much the better. Simple logic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I use Mesmer heroes a lot in PvE. Your slight nerf would make me not want to use them. You want changes for PvP, but what you suggest affects PvE as well.

Then have the nerf only be effective in PvP. I'm open to suggestions and your concern is valid. I just think that banning heroes from PvP is a horrible idea.

Quote:

If you can't find enough people to play any version of PvP (AB is what you mention) then you need to look harder. Change districts (Euro, American, International, etc.) and ask your guild/alliance. Although wait times may occur, I have never had to wait more than 15 minutes, and that was during an AB weekend where the place was over crowded.

I'm European and have a job. The time I get to play starts at about the time the Europeans stop playing, and ends at about the time the Americans get out of bed. If I just convince guildies to stay online so we can build 3 complete 4-man teams, that only means 12 people are wasting their time waiting in vain for opponents to show up. I'd gladly play with a hero team against other working guys with hero teams, because it's a lot better than not playing at all.
Do not double post.

MithranArkanere · Oct 21, 2009, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Let's see.

AI in parties is meant to fill gaps in emergencies.

"Oh, no, John Doe is not here!
"And there no one else to fill the gap!"
"We'll have to fill it with an hero/henchman"

If you dumb them down, that defeats their purpose.
If you keep heroes in PvP, since the builds used for them are the dumb-proof builds that use brute force and speed and not really skill at all, you'll get dumber heroes in both PvP and PvE. And just that, you don't fix anything at all.
You just make them use worse more builds.

Nechrond · Oct 21, 2009, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Let's see.

AI in parties is meant to fill gaps in emergencies.

"Oh, no, John Doe is not here!
"And there no one else to fill the gap!"
"We'll have to fill it with an hero/henchman"

If you dumb them down, that defeats their purpose.
If you keep heroes in PvP, since the builds used for them are the dumb-proof builds that use brute force and speed and not really skill at all, you'll get dumber heroes in both PvP and PvE. And just that, you don't fix anything at all.
You just make them use worse more builds.

I really feel like I'm saying very nearly the same thing over and over again; but if your belief that heroes are only used to fill gaps (and not to abuse their inhuman reaction time) is correct, then the motivation for banning heroes is void, and heroes shouldn't be banned. If heroes are not BETTER at certain jobs than human players, there is NO reason to ban them. And if they are, the obvious solutiun is to give them a slight nerf that puts them on par with human players.
Following your logic, the Arenanet "solution" of giving us more henchies (that also are not allowed to have common hero builds) doesn't fix anything either, plus it has all the disadvantages listed in my OP.

MagmaRed · Oct 21, 2009, 02:11 PM // 14:11

I highly doubt it is possible to nerf the AI for PvP and not PvE as well. Skills is one thing, but AI is completely different. And if you want to argue that heroes are being removed because they are better than humans at certain jobs, then you are missing a lot of AI changes if you leave it at Mesmers and interrupts. Monks can heal someone faster than a human for the same reason a Mesmer can interrupt - reaction time is better. Tainted Flesh, Death Nova, etc., etc...... do you start to see the various AI issues that can be used to say heroes are better than humans?

If they can split the AI between PvE and PvP then I won't care what they do to the PvP AI. I don't use AI in PvP, so it won't effect me. If, however, they change the AI for heroes in PvE, they sure as hell better improve it, not nerf it.

Nechrond · Oct 21, 2009, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I highly doubt it is possible to nerf the AI for PvP and not PvE as well. Skills is one thing, but AI is completely different. And if you want to argue that heroes are being removed because they are better than humans at certain jobs, then you are missing a lot of AI changes if you leave it at Mesmers and interrupts. Monks can heal someone faster than a human for the same reason a Mesmer can interrupt - reaction time is better. Tainted Flesh, Death Nova, etc., etc...... do you start to see the various AI issues that can be used to say heroes are better than humans?

If they can split the AI between PvE and PvP then I won't care what they do to the PvP AI. I don't use AI in PvP, so it won't effect me. If, however, they change the AI for heroes in PvE, they sure as hell better improve it, not nerf it.

Are you kidding? Splitting the AI should be easy as pie. In fact, I expect that AI is already split between different PvP modes. A further split should be a simple task.
Alternatively, splitting skills into 3 versions - PvE, human-PvP and hero-PvP - would suit me fine too. I agree that interrupt Mesmer and Tainted Necromancer heroes are too strong (disagree about healing Monk, undecided about Death Nova), but banning all heroes from PvP is about the worst "solution" imaginable.

MagmaRed · Oct 21, 2009, 03:16 PM // 15:16

You disagree that a hero Monk can cast a heal faster than a human Monk? If you do, then you must disagree that a hero Mesmer can interrupt better than a human Mesmer. I didn't say a hero can heal better, I said they can react faster.

Monks can heal someone faster than a human for the same reason a Mesmer can interrupt - reaction time is better.

And I'm glad to see you know how the AI is programmed and know what is possible. I don't, which is why I said I doubt the possiblility. I didn't say it was impossible, I said I don't think it is. I still don't.

But most important thing.... you seem to want to inforce your opinion as fact.... or you are just stating your opinion very strongly. Banning heroes from PvP is not the worst solution in my mind, nor in the mind of many people I know. In fact, most of the people I know would have been happier if they didn't include the henchmen, even if they were player designed.

Shayne Hawke · Oct 21, 2009, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Making the AI stupider is most certainly not a solution to anything, ever.

mage767 · Oct 21, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

I find it ironic that today in high-end pve like DoA, Underworld, FOW etc, people WANT to use people to play with and not heroes. But, in high-end pvp, people WANT some heroes to make life easier for them, and they want to keep them....lol

BlackSephir · Oct 21, 2009, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

I find it ironic that today in high-end pve like DoA, Underworld, FOW etc, people WANT to use people to play with and not heroes. But, in high-end pvp, people WANT some heroes to make life easier for them, and they want to keep them....lol

You think it has something to do with heroes being unusable in some areas and the fact that they can't use pve only skills?

xenosagafreak · Oct 21, 2009, 06:45 PM // 18:45

The AI's stupid enough.

/notsigned.

The Drunkard · Oct 21, 2009, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

I believe that banning heroes from all PvP does NOT solve the real problem here, and takes away some positive aspects of the game.

Heroes should have never existed in this game. Instead of subpar henchmen that anet originally had that encouraged team play, they went overboard and created customizable henchmen that could run decent skillbars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

-The game will suck for new players, killing most of the player base growth.

What? Since when does removing heroes=killing off players? You single out mesmers, yet I rarely see teams with more than two. Removing mesmer heroes will give the human mesmers more chances to play, since they can't interrupt as strongly as heroes. And if you haven't already noticed, most of HA and GvG is stagnant even with heroes. They've done nothing to motivate people to try them out; the bambi title and zquests did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Most guilds will only pick the established players for their PvP matches. How are new players ever to get into PvP if they a) never get picked for a team, and b) can't build a team of their own with heroes?

New players to gvg and HA will always have problems trying to get in to a nonrandomway group. Anet hasn't cared much for pvp arenas or skill balance ,and its been evident in the playerbase. Why play a balanced group that requires skill when you can do gimmik builds for r3? The debate between elitists and stubborn beginners existed ever since anet put the emote in. Giving two players the chance to team up with a group of 6 heroes that can have strong skillbars is not what GvG and HA was about; making friends with others and going through the learning curve was.
[/QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Arenanet could prevent all these problems AND handle the original problem better by just making heroes a little worse at interrupt spells - e.g. make Mesmer heroes only "see" spells cast by their current target, and the last target called by their controller.

Your idea calls for more micromanagement, not dumbing the AI down.
/notsigned

Reverend Dr · Oct 21, 2009, 08:28 PM // 20:28

One of the worst issues of the hero has nothing to do with AI, its that one person can easily micro 1-2 skills on a spike and through only one players action create a perfect spike.

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 21, 2009, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Some of you guys seem to think that admitting that you can't read more than a handful of words in one go ADDS to your credibility.

I don't think you understand, kid. The reason I stop reading at "nerf heroes" is because it follows the mentality that heroes should be nerfed, an idea usually linked to "heroes are bad" and thus not really worth reading.

Lishy · Oct 22, 2009, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Making the AI stupider is most certainly not a solution to anything, ever.

This.

Although any complaints about heroes spiking and such are a little silly.
Whatever heroes do, players on ventrillo do better. Way, WAY better.
Exception maybe being interrupts. Although I don't think it's a problem in PvE since I still think a human ranger with D.Shot is better for the sole purpose of having priority.

Reverend Dr · Oct 22, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Although any complaints about heroes spiking and such are a little silly.
Whatever heroes do, players on ventrillo do better. Way, WAY better.

Vent has lag, everyone activating skills at the same tie someone says 1, will result in a very unclean spike (unless all people on vent physically live in the same area). Two heroes under the control of a player will have the same in game lag exactly and will spike completely clean everytime.

Now players can compensate for vent lag, but that is far more difficult to do reliably during a match than it is for one person to push three buttons at the same time. That's the point, it is a case where something is much easier to do with heroes than it is to do with regular players.

Nechrond · Oct 22, 2009, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I don't think you understand, kid. The reason I stop reading at "nerf heroes" is because it follows the mentality that heroes should be nerfed, an idea usually linked to "heroes are bad" and thus not really worth reading.

1) I'm probably older than you.
2) I love the concept of heroes, which is exactly why I want to be able to use them in PvP, which is in turn WHY I'm suggesting an alternative solution.
3) The nerf I'm suggesting is very slight and would NOT lower a hero's intelligence, only his skill. There's a difference. Improvements to the decisions heroes make in combat would be great, it's just their perfect reflexes that need a little dent.
Optimally, heroes should act like human players, so that they could really do their job of filling the gaps caused by a lack of players - but if they're BETTER at a certain job, and get picked OVER human players, there's something wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Vent has lag, everyone activating skills at the same tie someone says 1, will result in a very unclean spike (unless all people on vent physically live in the same area). Two heroes under the control of a player will have the same in game lag exactly and will spike completely clean everytime.

Run Skype instead of Vent. No more lag, if you have a decent machine.

Quote:

Now players can compensate for vent lag, but that is far more difficult to do reliably during a match than it is for one person to push three buttons at the same time. That's the point, it is a case where something is much easier to do with heroes than it is to do with regular players.

Eh, no. Just no. Players on Skype spike a lot better than heroes.

obsidian ectoplasm · Oct 22, 2009, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Heroes are bad enough, they dont need to be worse.

Nechrond · Oct 22, 2009, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by obsidian ectoplasm

Heroes are bad enough, they dont need to be worse.

So banning them is unnecessary. Thanks for the support!