Curse

Martin Alvito · Oct 25, 2009, 10:51 PM // 22:51

We've got a bunch of issues already on the table scanning around Sardelac. Knowing what is in the Codex is a problem, EDA is a problem (and reflective of a larger issue), the title mechanism isn't great (we'll get to that), etc.

I'm going to hit some new issues that have not been raised and then comment on prospective solutions to known problems.

New issues

New issue #1: Codex reset. Having the Codex reset at the same time every day is unfair. It's a lot easier to churn out consecs right after the Codex resets than right before it resets. This is because one of two things is going to be true at any given time:

- some Rock-Paper-Scissors sort of dynamic will emerge, such that even with good play every build beats certain things and just loses to other things
- one build is better than all other known builds.

As the daily meta matures, it becomes increasingly likely that the former will be true. People figure out the counters to whatever appears to be OP that day, and it gets harder to consec. The Asia/Australia crowd is therefore simply going to get more points than the America crowd, all other things equal. That stinks.

New issue #2: Too many elites. Certain elites are just imba in this format. Having 1/3 of the elites and 1/8 of the basic skills is ridiculous. If anything, more basic skills and fewer elites should be available. The less often the truly imba elites show up, the better. Since rebalancing a skill like WoH for Codex is preposterous, the next-best solution is to minimize the frequency with which it appears.

Existing issues:

Codex title: What people dislike is the fact that they don't get rewarded for each win; we can fix this and increase the rewards for big streaks in the process. It should be obvious that a Pareto-improving solution that makes everyone better off is: each win is worth N = # of wins points to title track, capping at 20. Multiply the number of points for each level of the title by 10.

You now get 15/1000 points rather than 1/100 for a ten-string, 55/1000 rather than 3/100 for 10, 120/1000 rather than 6/100 for a 15-string, 200/1000 rather than 10/100 for a 20-string, 300/1000 rather than 14/100 for a 25-string, etc.

Everyone wins here, and players that get big strings win bigger than the small potatoes players (as it should be). Small fries still make the title bar move, but big streaks enable you to separate more per unit of time invested.

EDA: Reducing the frequency as above would help. However, if even Corrupt/Strip isn't a viable solution to the problem (because they stink in other matches on days when enchants are otherwise weak), EDA is OP. The skill probably needs a rework, since it isn't OP in any constructed format.

Seeing the Codex: Altering the Priest of Balthazar to function like the skills tab in Codex would work fine.

Discuss.

IronSheik · Oct 25, 2009, 11:28 PM // 23:28

EDA doesn't need nerfed.

And I have a proposal for CA as well: Remove it.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 25, 2009, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Codex title: What people dislike is the fact that they don't get rewarded for each win; we can fix this and increase the rewards for big streaks in the process. It should be obvious that a Pareto-improving solution that makes everyone better off is: each win is worth N = # of wins points to title track, capping at 20. Multiply the number of points for each level of the title by 10.

You now get 15/1000 points rather than 1/100 for a ten-string, 55/1000 rather than 3/100 for 10, 120/1000 rather than 6/100 for a 15-string, 200/1000 rather than 10/100 for a 20-string, 300/1000 rather than 14/100 for a 25-string, etc.

Everyone wins here, and players that get big strings win bigger than the small potatoes players (as it should be). Small fries still make the title bar move, but big streaks enable you to separate more per unit of time invested.

I think the 5 wins for a point system prevents RR days for codex arena, points per win only works for HA because of how you have to beat the zaishen people at the start, so its not a quick title farm. It sounds like your more interested in an easy title then actually playing the format.

majikmajikmajik · Oct 25, 2009, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

The Asia/Australia crowd is therefore simply going to get more points than the America crowd, all other things equal. That stinks.

what the hell does asians/australians have to do with sucking at CA?

FoxBat · Oct 26, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

I agree that consecs are needed to protect integrity from RR, but it should be lowered to every 3 IMO, that is more attainable. Up the title ranks respectively if you want, the point is just for mediocre players to see some small progress.

Additionally it's strange that TA faction rewards were always identical to RA, when TA takes the trouble of organization and RA doesn't. Same applies here. I'd bump the faction rewards up 30-50%.

The switchover has to happen sometime, there aren't many Asia/Australian players so that is the perfect time to switch from your reasoning, as meta development will be minimal. As far as I've seen even on american saturday morning the meta was relatively random, and didn't start settling in until the afternoon. Meta development is also going to go slower when there aren't many people on, as there will be less good/intelligent players competing against each other and hence less drive to innovate.

Personally I would've loved noon switchover so the deck would land in euro primetime, making it extremely fresh and still staying fairly so into american primetime. Albeit if you're worried about "fairness" this isn't it.

Ravi · Oct 26, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Or you can simply change the codex title to HA's hero title system, it does a good job recognizing individual wins, if no one rr'd TA, they won't rr CA either.

Martin Alvito · Oct 26, 2009, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by majikmajikmajik

what the hell does asians/australians have to do with sucking at CA?

If you're too dense to get it, I can't be bothered to explain it further. Suffice it to say that it's always easier to consec when the format just rolled out. It takes a while for counters to emerge, but once an RPS meta emerges it becomes extremely difficult to consec (and play skill only goes so far at that point). Some days you don't get an RPS meta, but most days you do.

Asians and Australians just happen to be playing when the switchover occurs right now. A 25 or 26 hour cycle, rather than the current 24 hour cycle, would improve fairness and give players different experiences in the arena from week to week.

As for consecs:

People don't /resign in HA, which gives 1 fame for UW wins, because the incentives to do so just aren't strong enough. This is similar. You run into teams that refuse to /resign (because they're good) and it would take a stupid number of /resigns just to get level 1.

The point isn't to make the title easier. The point is to reward scrubs for low levels of success so they keep playing. Otherwise, we will quickly repeat the TA mistake and have a dead arena. But if we're going to get the pros to agree to that solution, we need to increase the rewards they get for long strings so we don't water down achieving higher levels of the title.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 26, 2009, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Additionally it's strange that TA faction rewards were always identical to RA, when TA takes the trouble of organization and RA doesn't.

Its probably because TA and RA shared the same title track.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

People don't /resign in HA, which gives 1 fame for UW wins, because the incentives to do so just aren't strong enough. This is similar. You run into teams that refuse to /resign (because they're good) and it would take a stupid number of /resigns just to get level 1.

I know for a fact that if they took the zaishen out of HA that randomway people and PvE people would jump on that in an second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravi

Or you can simply change the codex title to HA's hero title system, it does a good job recognizing individual wins, if no one rr'd TA, they won't rr CA either.

Yeah but TA never had HA's hero title system so how does no one ever RR'ing in TA prove that if CA gets Hero title system they won't resign?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I agree that consecs are needed to protect integrity from RR, but it should be lowered to every 3 IMO, that is more attainable. Up the title ranks respectively if you want, the point is just for mediocre players to see some small progress.

I think 5 wins per point is good, it looks like its based off of RA 5 wins per point, which people are thankful for because it used to be 10 wins per point lol

Ravi · Oct 26, 2009, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by soul_of_misery

Yeah but TA never had HA's hero title system so how does no one ever RR'ing in TA prove that if CA gets Hero title system they won't resign?

Because consecutive wins give you more points toward the title track?

Ninja Ninja · Oct 26, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravi

Because consecutive wins give you more points toward the title track?

So... what your saying is you want the CA title noobed?
I mean think about it to put the HA title in HoM you need r8 instead of a normal r3 for codex arena.

Ravi · Oct 26, 2009, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by soul_of_misery

So... what your saying is you want the CA title noobed?
I mean think about it to put the HA title in HoM you need r8 instead of a normal r3 for codex arena.

if it gets "noobed" or not is a matter of opinion, if you win 1, you get a point towards your hero title, but to get a point in codex/gladiator? 5 wins, what happens with every single time you get 3-4 victories in RA/codex? you guessed it... nothing.

while, the rank to display it is higher, its just as hard as getting g3, except every victory counts towards the hero title.

Chocobo1 · Oct 26, 2009, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Id rather have HB back and just nerf the HB quest.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 26, 2009, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravi

if it gets "noobed" or not is a matter of opinion, if you win 1, you get a point towards your hero title, but to get a point in codex/gladiator? 5 wins, what happens with every single time you get 3-4 victories in RA/codex? you guessed it... nothing.

while, the rank to display it is higher, its just as hard as getting g3, except every victory counts towards the hero title.

Yeah but what im saying is that if they were to put that into the game, you would rather get r8 to put it in HoM or keep it as it is and get the title in HoM at r3.
Besides I don't think they will add Hero title system to CA, CA is an Arena just like RA and HA is a tournament.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

Id rather have HB back and just nerf the HB quest.

Yeah I would too but at least the majority that did RR day didn't get r3, so right now there forced to do CA.

MagmaRed · Oct 26, 2009, 02:51 AM // 02:51

My suggestion is to give Codex at least a month before making suggestions on it. Who knows what may show up within a month, or what may get altered in that time. Just give it time.... some of what you want changed may be things that you won't want changed after you have gotten used to it.

Patience.... not just for doctors.

Chocobo1 · Oct 26, 2009, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

My suggestion is to give Codex at least a month before making suggestions on it. Who knows what may show up within a month, or what may get altered in that time. Just give it time.... some of what you want changed may be things that you won't want changed after you have gotten used to it.

Patience.... not just for doctors.

The Arena is almost dead already. It needs help.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 26, 2009, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

The Arena is almost dead already. It needs help.

Not really its been said countless times that whatever core player base HB and TA had, CA would have an even smaller one.
Don't expect this Arena to be popular unless its CA z quest day.

Skyy High · Oct 26, 2009, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Why wouldn't it be popular?

Ninja Ninja · Oct 26, 2009, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Why wouldn't it be popular?

Because its the same old TA only now it has a sealed deck system, people wine that you can't get this title in a day but what good is a title if you can get it in one day.

Shayne Hawke · Oct 26, 2009, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Has anyone considered that the arena might not be popular since the Halloween festivities just started?

Ninja Ninja · Oct 26, 2009, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Has anyone considered that the arena might not be popular since the Halloween festivities just started?

Meh until today its been the same old Halloween content as its been for years.