Curse

Taddayo Kun · Oct 26, 2009, 03:46 PM // 15:46

There is a very big difference between dumbing down pvp and making it more accessible for players new to it. As it stands codex is just a slightly modified TA. They changed it so the meta disappeared, but that was not the only problem. The every shrinking playerbase a large factor and it's obvious that the meta was not the only cause.

I believe this title should be made more accessible or it will end up as stagnant as TA became. Since the thought of new content has been washed away by the reality of slightly modified content, they should at least make the title something new.

However, I do agree that the 'hardcore' pvp players need something to make their e-penis' feel bigger. So I suggest making the points easier to gain but the space between ranks larger so that the title will not be easier to get, but will simply give everyone a feeling that progress is being made even if the noobies are making progress very slowly.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 26, 2009, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangione

Are you sure?
New players won't be pissed off and leave codex arena after being steamrolled for two entire days?

My pve-guildies played CA for about 6 hours (3 hours the first day, 3 hours the second), they tried pugging, they tried guild team, THEY TRIED. They never get past the 4th consecutive.
So they got no reward at all, no matter how hard they tried, no matter they have gotten some small result beating other teams.
Guess what? They went back to other stuff, now they'll do the halloween stuff, then they'll go do something else (I mean playing some other game), because there's nothing new to do in GW for them, the novelty of the CA is already gone.

To sum it up this is the Sealed Deck format that everyone has been asking for, if people don't like what they ask for then maybe they should stop asking.
Yeah you get no reward for only 4 wins that's the point, you have to EARN it, have you ever done RA or TA before, Anet is not going to just give the title away because its new.

Reflect · Oct 26, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Why do bad players deserve to get any rank in the title? Why should bad players be rewarded for poor play? They shouldn't. That's not being elitist, that's using a very simple logic. Good play should be rewarded, not bad play. You are saying dumb down PvP titles, you.

LOL?
Its !PvP! nups that mostly whine for the title...
I have no problem with it reqs, as a PvE-er I alrdy have commander stute and since i have it i canh have codex anyway..
And as i say PvP titles mean !nothing!
i play 95% PvE and still have nrly r4 glad and r6 hero..so yeah PvP titles are easy to get..they just matter of the time you played , NOT from your skills..

axe · Oct 26, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reflect

LOL?
Its !PvP! nups that mostly whine for the title...
I have no problem with it reqs, as a PvE-er I alrdy have commander stute and since i have it i canh have codex anyway..
And as i say PvP titles mean !nothing!
i play 95% PvE and still have nrly r4 glad and r6 hero..so yeah PvP titles are easy to get..they just matter of the time you played , NOT from your skills..

Which is why PvP players think the titles mean "nothing" until you get to high ranks.

Anyways Arkantos I have to disagree with you on this one, let the low ranked Codex title mean NOTHING for the health of the arena. It will die off if people get discouraged, that is the truth of it.

Let high end PvPers play for the fun of it, but honestly you and everyone will benefit from more activity in the arena. Add some emotes and watch the district numbers stay in the healthy range. This is IMO

And sure if your casual guild/pve guild is dedicated then after some weeks of no/little points they WILL eventually start making some points, but if the arena dies off, then how likely will it be that you get 5 consecutives if there are only a few teams playing. Hell the only reason TA even HAD teams to face is because of RA overflow.

Its in your best interest to look to the future, I understand its "too early" to tell right now, but honestly looking long term, I have to believe that a cumulative title will be better for the Arena in the long run and ranks will seperate skill levels naturally

Cluebag · Oct 26, 2009, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Well, I guess the stupid question I'd ask is: Has shitcanning HB/TA and introducing CA in its place solved the problems that led to the downfall of those now defunct pvp arenas?

Let's consider the former TA playerbase. It would appear, at first glance, that the sealed deck format has eliminated the meta problem, or so we're led to believe (future fotd's to be determined, notwithstanding). However, wasn't also part of the problem the fact that the gladiator point title farmers (yeah, I'm calling them that) made it difficult for new blood to be introduced and maintain the health of the arena? Whether they were the RA-synchers, or just hard-core TA types, the average matchup seemed to be high-ranked glad point people curbstomping the low/zero ranked ppl. CA will turn out the same way I fear.

Now I'm sure the high ranked ppl, as well as most anyone with a functioning brain for that matter, would agree that "ofc a more experienced person is going to destroy the less experienced person." Just like I'm sure if you match up a Pop Warner team against an NFL team (unless we're talking about the Titans), the kiddies are likely going home completely demoralized and having learned nothing except pain hurts. There needs to be something done about the imbalance in the team's skill levels to make it feel at least somewhat competetive, and not a slaughter. I think kiSu hosted a gvg tournament with this idea in mind, and iirc, it was a hit.

I'm not sure if there is a way to incorporate handicaps to level the playing field. Just a quick one I pulled out of my ass: a choice of a slight unstrippable buff present for a pvp format based on that particular pvp title's rank. Rank 0-2 could get, oh, I dunno, say a choice of 15% ias, or 15% ims, or damage reduction of some sort, or some other type of buff, with diminishing permanent buffs as the ranks increase, like 10% ias for the rank 3-5, and 5% ias for 6-8. This would give the newbies a slight edge that eventually erodes as they become better players and move up in the ranks.

Another way to level the field would be somehow averaging the player's individual pvp ranks within a team, and matching teams based on their combined average rank. This can be done thru pvp title ranks, baltz faction, or some other method of measuring pvp experience. Regardless, the goal would be to keep players of similarly matched skill levels playing each other, as opposed to say a team of 4 who've played together going on 4 years equating to approx 16 years experience, playing against a team who's combined experience level equates to that of a few days. The downside to this type of setup could lead to the same problems that the top gvg teams run into, very few people at the pinnacle of the format and a lot of waiting around for comparably skilled players to fight.

These are just some ideas. I'm sure the truly competetive/innovative will find ways to exploit it, such as it is when it comes to winning by any and all means necessary. The bottom line is, however, if you can't sell this to the larger playerbase, and it remains a newbie-unfriendly environment, expect it to atrophy and die, become a cesspool of some sort, or otherwise have a low turnout.

And I apologize if this isn't exactly following the topic of discussion in this thread, tho it's somewhat related, I think, sorta, kinda. I'm not sure how to portray the above in a single post. Seems like there's room for a lessons learned thread, a how to fix/improve pvp thread, and a number of other discussions.

Revelations · Oct 26, 2009, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Oh, ok. So because there are casual PvE players who want to fill up their HoM, ANet should cater to them when it comes to PvP titles, right? That's a joke.

Cool, that's the hero title. We're talking about the codex title here, and there's nothing wrong with it unless you're a player that wants everything handed to them on a silver platter.

Why do bad players deserve to get any rank in the title? Why should bad players be rewarded for poor play? They shouldn't. That's not being elitist, that's using a very simple logic. Good play should be rewarded, not bad play. You are saying dumb down PvP titles, you want them to cater to casual PvE players.

For an admin you're a pretty solid troll. I never suggested that PvP titles cater to PvErs - I suggested that you give them a f***ing grind to get their codex 1 or 2 by the time decent players have their rank 7 or 8. I don't want everything handed to me on a silver platter, I've mentioned numerous times that I personally don't actually give a shit about said titles, because I'll earn a respectable rank either way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Why do bad players deserve to get any rank in the title? Why should bad players be rewarded for poor play? They shouldn't. That's not being elitist, that's using a very simple logic. Good play should be rewarded, not bad play. You are saying dumb down PvP titles, you want them to cater to casual PvE players.

I'm not saying bad players deserve titles, I'm saying 'I don't give a shit whether these players deserve the title or not, I just want them to see it as attainable so they don't f*** off and leave my arena dead'. If this results in some of them getting Codex 1 or 2 over the course of a year, who gives a shit? Everyone is quite aware that low ranks in the Hero (or any other pvp) track are worth absolutely nothing - and this will be no different, so I really don't see what harm there is in letting PvErs farm a rank or two at the expense of your epeen.

As for bad play, consider that one whole point out of perhaps a thousand for the first rank of your title as a reward for beating people even more bad. You've got a long way to go for those other 999. Big reward son.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

You're right, not everyone has the same mentality, but that's irrelevant. What you fail to realize is PvP titles are not meant to be maxed. They're supposed to be a somewhat endless achievement. Honestly, I'd rather CA have a small playerbase than a huge one of PvE players farming the title.

Nothing I previously stated had anything to do with maxing PvP titles, I don't know why you're going on such a pointless stupid sidetrack here. If you don't have a low end to the player base then your middle end is going to run out of opponents they can score the odd win against. Which will leave a bunch of high ranked players rotting in their dying arena. I would prefer this not to happen, I don't want another TA.

Edit: Also, if you lose a large portion of your potential playerbase, you might as well forget about such things as Codex ATs and a ladder. The implementation of these depends on popularity according to the devs, so it's in your best interest to retain as many players as you can in that arena. Do you honestly think they're going to support the place if it becomes anywhere close to how dead TA was?

Ninja Ninja · Oct 26, 2009, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

I'm not saying bad players deserve titles, I'm saying 'I don't give a shit whether these players deserve the title or not, I just want them to see it as attainable so they don't f*** off and leave my arena dead'. If this results in some of them getting Codex 1 or 2 over the course of a year, who gives a shit? Everyone is quite aware that low ranks in the Hero (or any other pvp) track are worth absolutely nothing - and this will be no different, so I really don't see what harm there is in letting PvErs farm a rank or two at the expense of your epeen.

Your noob grind arena idea doesn't sound like fun at all, btw you kiss your mother with that mouth? lol

Arkantos · Oct 26, 2009, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reflect

LOL?
Its !PvP! nups that mostly whine for the title...
I have no problem with it reqs, as a PvE-er I alrdy have commander stute and since i have it i canh have codex anyway..
And as i say PvP titles mean !nothing!
i play 95% PvE and still have nrly r4 glad and r6 hero..so yeah PvP titles are easy to get..they just matter of the time you played , NOT from your skills..

All titles mean nothing, and no title takes skill.

axe · Oct 26, 2009, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by soul_of_misery

Your noob grind arena idea doesn't sound like fun at all, btw you kiss your mother with that mouth? lol

So the Arena is fun if its 5 consecutive wins = points, but not fun if every win gets points.

I think a cumulative points system has definite merits and it is early enough now that a change would be easier. But yeah as Revelations said the population is a concern and EVERYONE will benefit from a larger player base, so if a simple change like this will keep some people from leaving the Arena, then so be it.

He is just speculating that the player base will be healthier with such a points system, and I agree.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 26, 2009, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by axe

So the Arena is fun if its 5 consecutive wins = points, but not fun if every win gets points.

I think a cumulative points system has definite merits and it is early enough now that a change would be easier. But yeah as Revelations said the population is a concern and EVERYONE will benefit from a larger player base, so if a simple change like this will keep some people from leaving the Arena, then so be it.

He is just speculating that the player base will be healthier with such a points system, and I agree.

I think the 5 wins = 1 point is fine and I think your population concern is biased with the new this year only Halloween quests coming out I don't think the CA will be very active.
In reality this Arena and title have only been out for a few days and all during the Halloween event and I think its pretty funny that people are asking for emotes and things to up interest, when if any titles deserves an emote would be some of the more older ones.
Really this looks like a ship that just left the docks and already people are jumping in the life boats.

axe · Oct 26, 2009, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by soul_of_misery

I think the 5 wins = 1 point is fine and I think your population concern is biased with the new this year only Halloween quests coming out I don't think the CA will be very active.
In reality this Arena and title have only been out for a few days and all during the Halloween event and I think its pretty funny that people are asking for emotes and things to up interest, when if any titles deserves an emote would be some of the more older ones.
Really this looks like a ship that just left the docks and already people are jumping in the life boats.

Fair enough

Anyways Im on the side that says, making it cumulative wont hurt anything, so I see it as Anet has nothing to lose by making it cumulative.

Captain Bulldozer · Oct 26, 2009, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Arkantos, as much as we all value both your experience and your opinion (I should hope anyway... anyone who doesn't is well... kinda stupid), I think you make a poor assumption that players not making it to 5 consecutive wins are bad players. At the moment, the poulation of CA falls roughly into 3 classes: 1) Highly experienced PvP players, 2) Mid range players with some experience but who are not super PvP people and 3) Inexperienced ppl who want to try out CA because its a more appealing form of PvP to them.

Now, there are enough people in class 1 that it posses a problem, given the class 2 is quite small and class 3 is relatively large. Many of the people in classes 2 and 3 could go on to become good players, they often have a good understanding of the skills, but perhaps not as much understanding of tactics and team-work required to be good at PvP, due to their inexperience. So its not that these players are necessarily bad, its that many of them are new and inexperienced. If players are generally bad, then they will clearly stand out as such, but inexperienced players can get better if they have motivation to do so and if they are given a fair chance at doing that.

In PvE, the player doesn't go straight from Pre-searing to the fire islands because it wouldn't be fair to expect people to learn the game that quickly. In the same way, new PvP players pitted against R8+ players stand virtually no chance. If even 20% of the population is in class 1, its safe to assume that anyone in class 2 or 3 is not likely to make it to 5 victories, meaning the best of the best advance fairly easily, but basically no one else advances at all. I'd say that's not a good way to encourage new blood. Not that titles should be a great for of encouragement, but it is obviously one way. Personally, I think the title could be left alone if parties in match-ups weren't determined randomly, as I suggested in one of my previous posts.

ccReynolds · Oct 27, 2009, 03:22 AM // 03:22

I think codex should be a participation based title. There is no winning or losing and you get a point for each game played...although this maybe a little harsh. Perhaps it should include time spent chatting in the arena as well. We don't want to discourage people you know. Since title tracks are the only way to attract the average player, this is the only logical way to expand the player base. The communist title track would be appropriate since there will be no reward for doing well. If that has too negative of a connotation maybe the hello kitty island adventure title track?

What about the R14+ G12+ players you say? This arena is their utopia. Everyone now is forced to play a reasonably balanced build, they are free from the lack of creativity caused by having 1000s of skills at their disposal, and there will be no n00bs running a build they got off of wiki.

Mangione · Oct 27, 2009, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by soul_of_misery

To sum it up this is the Sealed Deck format that everyone has been asking for, if people don't like what they ask for then maybe they should stop asking.

I don't remember people ASKING for a gladiator-like title track.
Maybe you should point me some link. If you find one.

Also, your answer completely misses the point of my post. Are you even reading what people write before answering?
What about people turning away? Want another dead place in gw so the elitists "oh I'm so pro look my uber elite title ca8++++" can feel satisfied among themselves?

Quote:

Originally Posted by soul_of_misery

Yeah you get no reward for only 4 wins that's the point, you have to EARN it, have you ever done RA or TA before, Anet is not going to just give the title away because its new.

A point progression like the one for HA is not really "give the title away".
And any title got there isn't "less earned" than one gotten in RA or TA.

Arachnephobia · Oct 27, 2009, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

This is why I don't PvP.

I second that.

miriforst · Oct 27, 2009, 03:12 PM // 15:12

the reason why i don't like pvp is because of the titles.

lets say its a person who played HA for 4 years ago in the beta or something, when there was still wammos and rangers with imagined burden and empathy.

he wins a lot of battles and get some r3 or so.
then he stops playing gw for 3 years like ive seen a lot of people do.

then we have person nr2 who has been playing for like 1-2 years and played it 24/7 since. he has became a pro and is highly skilled.

the only problem is he cant get a foothold in places like HA where ALL parties in these days and ALL players are r3-12.

while in theory person nr1 could come back and say "blimey there has happened a lot here" and starts playing again.

he has no skill whatsoever after 3 years of refining and "1337 leetage builds"
he got no idea what he is doing but he still has the chance of getting a team while the nr2 person struggles finding a non-random unranked team.

and this "glf r15+++" in party search in codex is plain stupid since its a totally new formate and totally different ways of playing since the challenge is to do a build from what you get, not from ctrl + Copy pvx wiki team builds.

it was supposed to start from scratch.

please dont quote me flammingly and call me bad things for saying this, i might be the only one here with r1 and who have given up HA because of the impossible in creating or finding a structured unranked party.

sorry

Revelations · Oct 27, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriforst

*snip*

Cool story bro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by soul_of_misery

Really this looks like a ship that just left the docks and already people are jumping in the life boats.

You're better off adding cautionary measures to prevent the boat sinking before it starts going under. I would even go so far as to say that such measures should have been in place before the ship even left. It was pretty obvious that consecutive win titles were pretty badly designed.

Vazze · Oct 27, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cluebag

Let's consider the former TA playerbase. It would appear, at first glance, that the sealed deck format has eliminated the meta problem, or so we're led to believe (future fotd's to be determined, notwithstanding). However, wasn't also part of the problem the fact that the gladiator point title farmers (yeah, I'm calling them that) made it difficult for new blood to be introduced and maintain the health of the arena? Whether they were the RA-synchers, or just hard-core TA types, the average matchup seemed to be high-ranked glad point people curbstomping the low/zero ranked ppl. CA will turn out the same way I fear.

This. It is not about the title...anymore than a title is a representation of the matchmaking system.
When I play against a weak team, it bores me, and I don't really want to play in a farmfest arena, no matter how attractive the format is.

war330 · Oct 28, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

although i think the glad title system is flawed to casual players i dun think they should they it becuz titles do show that the person has earned it through skill and practice... it sounds like ur just looking for an easy way out :P

Dusk_ · Oct 28, 2009, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Honestly, I'd rather CA have a small playerbase than a huge one of PvE players farming the title.

Well, good for you. Welcome to your elitist minority. The majority of players either fall into the category of "I don't give a damn as long as I can play in the arena" and "I don't like this arena, so I won't play in it".

Question for you: How stupid does a business have to be to cater to the small minority that will keep playing the game without being spoon-fed over the whimsical majority that will fly away the moment they get bored?