Guild Wars Forums - GW Guru
 
Forums Guild Wiki PvX Wiki
 

Go Back   Guild Wars Forums - GW Guru > The Inner Circle > Sardelac Sanitarium
Reload this Page Ideas to improve Fort Aspenwood
Register FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Page 5 of 7 « First < 34 5 67 >
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Nov 17, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37   #81
Krytan Explorer
 
Hyperventilate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in California
Guild: I Gots A Crayon [Blue]
Profession: Me/Mo
Advertisement

Disable Ads
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
Everything you said is completely negated by this.
No, I never said that the map was fair, but I've never complained about it.

Thinking a few changes should happen doesn't mean I'm complaining about it.
It would just make the map better and a bit more fun in my own own opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauli View Post
@ Hyperventilate

You can see my comments (at this post, above) about casual players at this format, and being realistic about your expectations from them. Blame the casual players for behaving the way they do, when the map is designed for them. It'll get you nowhere.


I'll have to agree with upier about you negating everything you said with the above quote.

See above. kthx.
Last edited by Hyperventilate; Nov 17, 2009 at 11:40 PM // 23:40..
Hyperventilate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 12:17 AM // 00:17   #82
Lion's Arch Merchant
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Scotland
Guild: The Illuminati
Default
Well of the Profane

Campaign: Core
Profession: Necromancer
Attribute: Death Magic
Type: Well Spell

25 Energy 3 Activation 10 Recharge
Exploit nearest corpse to create a Well of the Profane at its location. For 8...18 seconds, foes in that area are stripped of all enchantments and cannot be the target of further enchantments. (50% failure chance with Death Magic 4 or less.)

Learn to bring it.

End of thread
Brother Andicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29   #83
Lion's Arch Merchant
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Travelling around Tyria, Cantha, and Elona
Profession: P/W
Default
Pauli: First of all, I do understand that you are frustrated that the AI is being easily exploited by the Kurzicks, but like I said before it works on both sides. Now with that out of the way, here's my response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauli View Post
You cant think outside the box, can you? Furthermore, you really need to improve your reading comprehension. First of all, I said its not about winning, but about those two specific issues (turtle and gate NPC) more than anything else. On top of it, People said way way way too many times that BOTH sides usually have bad players because this is a casual format. By the looks of it I doubt you'll even understand it now, but at least I gave it another shot.
No, you said that the monks can easily hold the gates and that people can stall the turtles on their own not because they are skilled but because of the map design. I hate to break it to you, but it IS about the monk having the ability to keep both himself and the npc up while under fire from the turtles and other luxons trying to break the gate and being pressured at the same time. Just because you can't beat that monk, doesn't mean they're unbeatable. The same can be said about the monk healing the turtles as well. It IS about the lack of skill on the luxon side for not bringing the proper counters to the turtle tankers that you KNOW you will be seeing all the time. Because the Kurzicks are more prepared and can take advantage of the information available to them, they're abusing the map? News flash: both sides can abuse the mechanics of the map. Everything can be countered. If you already know what to expect, why aren't bringing something to counter them instead of bitching on the forums?

Since I know you will say: it's a random casual format so you can't expect everyone to bring the right stuff. Then let me ask you: it's random for both sides, and yet which side brings more shitter builds? That's right, Luxons do. So again, which side has more bad players?

Quote:
Kurzicks keep winning at the Jade Quarry? Not while I was playing there. Not so many times at all.
And yet it's common knowledge that Kurz dominate Lux at JQ. Your wins there are like a minor detail in the overall picture. Why do you think that there are so many Kurz waiting there as opposed to Lux? Because Luxons know that they won't stand a chance. So again I ask you: if Kurzick players are that bad, why are they winning all the time in JQ where the map is actually balanced?

Quote:
I have seen only one Fort Aspenwood battle in which Gunther was lured out, and I've been through way more battles than you can count. Furthermore, if its possible, I would suggest fixing that as well.
Doesn't mean that it can't be done. You can easily pull him like any mob: with a bow. Actually, if you time his wanding animation and run outside green as he's about to attack again, he WILL follow you outside.

Quote:
Juggernauts werent surviving for so long to actually make a major difference anyway. Furthermore, they have knockdown and the Body Block issue isnt only Fort Aspenwood's. Its also a problem at Heroes' Ascent (and not only there).
You see the problem with that? Juggs were meant to counter the turtles and have high armor so that it keep green up longer. And yet pretty much anyone can solo it without taking much damage. Knockdown abilty? What knockdown? I said that they can be body blocked so that they just stand there and do nothing. And just because the body block is also an issue elsewhere doesn't make it any less significant here. At least the turtles can spam carrier defense.

Quote:
Why are we complaining? First of all, you have to comprehend what we're saying. You think its all about winning and about saying only Kurzicks are bad. The truth is that the majority of the Luxons in this thread have only agreed about the Turtle AI issue and the gate NPCs.
And I also mentioned that the tankers/healers can and should be countered if you want any hope of success. Sure I agree that turtles firing into walls where people are standing by the teleporters are annoying and should be fixed. But complaining about tanker and healer is like going to fight Shiro without bringing any anti-melee and then complaining that he owned your team. I understand that you are frustrated about the AI being exploited, but like I said a good team (which the Luxons currently lack) do not have to rely on the turtles. At all.

Quote:
With all due respect, the builds' issue (Kurzick vs Luxon) represents your experience only, while there have been numerous battles you werent in. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it sure is possible that it was just your experience.
Not true, if you read the forums and Wiki and talk to others who have played there, then you have a pretty good idea of what's been going on for both sides, and that is how I came up with the consensus.

Quote:
Other than that, its a casual format and you should expect people to bring what they prefer over what's best for the team. That's a big part of being casual, to many people (facts speak for themselves). Furthermore, stripping alone isnt enough, because the players in the team are not well coordinated. How could we expect that from a random team of casuals?
And that's why I agreed that the Kurzicks have the initial advantage of being more coordinated simply because they are all balled up in the fort. Only thing I have to say is, if you strip right before that turtle hits, that npc is dead. No coordination required.

TD;LR Version: I do understand that you guys are frustrated about the turtles being exploited and the monks healing the gates. But this can be abused on both sides. A good Luxon team does not need turtles to win. Still, the tankers/healers can and should be countered if you want to win (or have fun in your case and not be frustrated), then topics like this wouldn't have to come up time and again.
Giga_Gaia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57   #84
Academy Page
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperventilate View Post
No, I never said that the map was fair, but I've never complained about it.
Thinking a few changes should happen doesn't mean I'm complaining about it.
It would just make the map better and a bit more fun in my own own opinion.
See above. kthx.
You know that's exactly what I did in my first post (in this thread). I said that just a few changes are needed and the map would be more fun. kthx.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Andicus View Post
Well of the Profane
Learn to bring it.
End of thread
Learn what a casual format is, and how to design a PvP map for them. Forcing builds to win a casual match is one big fail.
End of thread (for Brother Andicus).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia View Post
Pauli: First of all, I do understand that you are frustrated that the AI is being easily exploited by the Kurzicks, but like I said before it works on both sides. Now with that out of the way, here's my response.
No, I'm not frustrated. I'm having fun playing at Fort Aspenwood, but you only had to read my posts because its specifically written in some of them. Furthermore, I never said I'm frustrated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia View Post
No, you said that the monks can easily hold the gates and that people can stall the turtles on their own not because they are skilled but because of the map design. I hate to break it to you, but it IS about the monk having the ability to keep both himself and the npc up while under fire from the turtles and other luxons trying to break the gate and being pressured at the same time. Just because you can't beat that monk, doesn't mean they're unbeatable. The same can be said about the monk healing the turtles as well. It IS about the lack of skill on the luxon side for not bringing the proper counters to the turtle tankers that you KNOW you will be seeing all the time. Because the Kurzicks are more prepared and can take advantage of the information available to them, they're abusing the map? News flash: both sides can abuse the mechanics of the map. Everything can be countered.

Since I know you will say: it's a random casual format so you can't expect everyone to bring the right stuff. Then let me ask you: it's random for both sides, and yet which side brings more shitter builds? That's right, Luxons do. So again, which side has more bad players?
I hate to break it to you, but some builds are very very very easy to operate. Builds that are shared or published and can be easily obtained. If its that easy, it requires a lot of skill, right? Wrong. Furthermore, We know both sides bring, occasionally, bad players which means that its very easy to overcome their attempts to harm you. I also know, from experience, that its true. Its very easy to overcome many attempts to harm me, even from quite a lot of players (when I'm playing a monk).

Another fail in your post, is that fact that you tell me what I'm doing, and then said I'm not good enough. I hate to break it to you, but whenever I bring a necromancer or a mesmer, I always bring strips and/or skill denial. If I dont, I just go to the other gate so I wouldnt spend time. Please ask me what I'm doing instead of trying to tell me what I'm doing. It'll prevent more fails in your post. Could I expect anyone to act like me? No, I cant. Its nothing more than the basics of designing a map for casuals. Dont force builds which are only prefered by rare people.

I hate to break it to you (yes, again), but skill is the way you use your build and casuals dont only lack skill in many cases, but also bring prefered builds. That's the basics of designing a map for casuals. You shouldnt force them to bring builds that are rarely prefered (rare is the key word here). Its about builds people have fun playing. Its about preferences.

Solo builds with a lot of ways to survive and/or run away are popular because many casuals dont like it when they die. Such builds can hold the turtle in one place,even though they can hold the turtle without being hurt at all (which is one of the major issues here). Skill denial builds, which are extremely useful against monks (among others), are very vulnerable and dont have the satisfaction of killing, also because they cant coordinate the lockdown with damage from other people. Therefore, such builds are unpopular.

Yet another fail in your post is the basic fact that I said I want to fix ANY type of issue that originates in the map's design, while you try to make it look like I only want to fix the Luxon side's issues (maybe you do that purpose, I really dont know). I said, for example, that I'd prevent any chance of luring the last NPC out, so it will serve the Luxons. You keep seeing only what you want, and I'm starting to think its on purpose. If its not, its about comprehension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia View Post
If you already know what to expect, why aren't bringing something to counter them instead of bitching on the forums?
Of the two of us, you're the one who complained about the players while I never did so (try to quote me, just give it a shot). That said, you just called yourself a forum bitch. I didnt call you that, you called yourself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia View Post
And yet it's common knowledge that Kurz dominate Lux at JQ. Your wins there are like a minor detail in the overall picture. Why do you think that there are so many Kurz waiting there as opposed to Lux? Because Luxons know that they won't stand a chance. So again I ask you: if Kurzick players are that bad, why are they winning all the time in JQ where the map is actually balanced?
Common knowledge? Says who? You? Did A-Net approve it with any kind of statistics on their part? If not, why should I talk your word for it? Furthermore, any attempt to prove that one side is inherently more skilled than the other side (when its an RvR discussion) has always failed, like your (attempt for an) arguement here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia View Post
Not true, if you read the forums and Wiki and talk to others who have played there, then you have a pretty good idea of what's been going on for both sides, and that is how I came up with the consensus.
You must know, by now, that forums are far from being a good way to represent the game's population. Its a well known fact that's been proved time and again and again and again etc. That said, you cant base your arguement on the forums. A-Net's statistics are the only way to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia View Post
Doesn't mean that it can't be done. You can easily pull him like any mob: with a bow. Actually, if you time his wanding animation and run outside green as he's about to attack again, he WILL follow you outside.
Which is why I said I'm against it and it should be fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia View Post
You see the problem with that? Juggs were meant to counter the turtles and have high armor so that it keep green up longer. And yet pretty much anyone can solo it without taking much damage. Knockdown abilty? What knockdown? I said that they can be body blocked so that they just stand there and do nothing. And just because the body block is also an issue elsewhere doesn't make it any less significant here. At least the turtles can spam carrier defense.
I never said its not an issue. Quite the opposite, in fact. I specifically said its an issue, but not one that belongs to Fort Aspenwood alone. I dont know what can be done about it. If someone comes up with a good suggestion, I'm all for it.

I'm against body blocking the Juggernaut just to prevent it from doing its job. However, I remember its damage being very easy to once it got to the turtle. The turtle didnt have such a major problem doing its job even with a Juggernaut on it. That said, its an issue but not nearly as serious as the turtle's. Why? Because the turtle's impact, once its not stuck far from the battle, is much more serious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia View Post
And I also mentioned that the tankers/healers can and should be countered if you want any hope of success. Sure I agree that turtles firing into walls where people are standing by the teleporters are annoying and should be fixed. But complaining about tanker and healer is like going to fight Shiro without bringing any anti-melee and then complaining that he owned your team. I understand that you are frustrated about the AI being exploited, but like I said a good team (which the Luxons currently lack) do not have to rely on the turtles. At all.
When fighting Shiro you have the chance to organise a team and choose your team mates and builds properly. People also tend to be much more coordinated when working with premade teams. The case we're discussing here is far from being the one you mentioned (Shiro) and therefore the analogy is irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia View Post
And that's why I agreed that the Kurzicks have the initial advantage of being more coordinated simply because they are all balled up in the fort. Only thing I have to say is, if you strip right before that turtle hits, that npc is dead. No coordination required.

The turtle isnt strong enough to kill the NPC in one hit.

TD;LR Version: I do understand that you guys are frustrated about the turtles being exploited and the monks healing the gates. But this can be abused on both sides. A good Luxon team does not need turtles to win. Still, the tankers/healers can and should be countered if you want to win (or have fun in your case and not be frustrated), then topics like this wouldn't have to come up time and again.
Again, its not frustration. I'm having fun, but I'd have more fun if things were a little different. Therefore I initially made two simple suggestions in a constructive way. Gladly, most of your post was mature and constructive and I believe you'll understand me better now. I think I understand your side here.

Other than that, the turtles were given to the Luxon side to be an advantage, and not a small one too. This advantage has the greatest impact when inside the fort, but its extremely easy to prevent them from going inside. You wouldnt be surprised when we ask for the advantage we were designed to have, do you? Just like I'm not surprised if you dont like it when the last NPC is lured out (and like I said, it shouldnt happen).

Its quite the same story with the monks and the gate NPCs (which is coupled with the wast way in which the gates can be fixed), which we discussed quite a lot already.


Conclusion

It all boils down to everyone here asking one thing: Let skill be the factor that decides who's going to win. Skill and team work, while taking into account the fact that we dont know who will our team mates be or which class/build will they choose.

What we have yet to agree about is forcing builds (especially ones that are rarely prefered), and like I already said, its one big fail when someone designs a map for casuals this way.
Last edited by Pauli; Nov 18, 2009 at 06:45 AM // 06:45..
Pauli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53   #85
Forge Runner
 
the_jos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Guild: Hard Mode Legion [HML]
Profession: N/
Default
Quote:
For that reason you should prevent a case in which an individual has a very serious impact that has almost nothing to do with his own skill.
First of all, I do think turtle blocking should be fixed.

Let's assume I play Luxon side.
This means I have to counter two kinds of players, monks healing at gates and rangers blocking turtles. I have to choose between those two, forcing me into a certain build.

However, if I want to play for win on Kurzick side I am also forced into one or two builds. The gate healer or the turtle blocker. When I don't bring those there is a chance that no healer or blocker is available, making winning harder.

Next we have the 'I want to play whatever I want' mentality.
That's ok, but don't expect to win while thinking that way. It doesn't work in any PvP arena and also doesn't work in PvE without relying on your team.

Kurzicks bring monks and rangers because they want to win. The format forces them to do that. If Luxons want to win they should run builds to counter them. Or pray that others do. That's the way it works.
the_jos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 11:12 AM // 11:12   #86
Academy Page
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_jos View Post
First of all, I do think turtle blocking should be fixed.

Let's assume I play Luxon side.
This means I have to counter two kinds of players, monks healing at gates and rangers blocking turtles. I have to choose between those two, forcing me into a certain build.

However, if I want to play for win on Kurzick side I am also forced into one or two builds. The gate healer or the turtle blocker. When I don't bring those there is a chance that no healer or blocker is available, making winning harder.

Next we have the 'I want to play whatever I want' mentality.
That's ok, but don't expect to win while thinking that way. It doesn't work in any PvP arena and also doesn't work in PvE without relying on your team.

Kurzicks bring monks and rangers because they want to win. The format forces them to do that. If Luxons want to win they should run builds to counter them. Or pray that others do. That's the way it works.
First of all, there's a way to hold the turtles without getting hurt at all. Not only that, but Rangers are far from being the only way to hold the turtle. Killing the turtle is very easy in almost every match, and therefore there are many more viable builds. If that wasnt enough, we only discussed the gates, and there's a lot of fighting beyond that, so that makes quite a lot of builds viable on both sides (as long as the gate isnt held for such a long time because of one person). On top of it all, Amber is an easy and good way to fix the gates, so many running/survival builds are also made viable on the Kurzick side.

Lets take a step back and see how many viable options the Kurzicks have: Tanking builds, Solo Survival builds, Solo running builds, Various monk builds (to keep the last NPC and other team mates alive), and DPS builds. All those builds are popular options.

Lets take a look at the Luxon side. They have to deal with perches (which I find reasonable), they have to deal with walls (which is acceptable as long as they're maintained because of skill alone), they need to keep the turtle alive, and they have to kill the last NPC.

For the above roles the Luxons need (mostly): Ranged DPS builds (spells are way better here because of walls and perches), Protections builds for monks (or else its very hard to keep yourself AND the turtle alive), Skill Denial (to take care of gate monks, and other monks later) and/or very good strips.

Skill denial isnt common for the reasons I mentioned before. Protections builds arent that common at all (I've been through many many many many battles without seeing one). Good strips are almost always taken by Necromancers or Memsers (mostly Necromancers) who have vulnerable builds (builds with very limited self survival options), and therefore they're much more rare. Rs, Ds, As, Ps and Ws are way less viable, which cancels quite a lot of options (they could be more viable if the walls were breached faster or more easily, and if the NPCs had less anti melee skills). In short, many of their viable builds are unpopular.


The conclusion is extremely clear. The current format supports popular and easy to play builds on the Kurzick side, while the Luxons are forced to take unpopular builds if they want to have a good chance to win.


This is a casual format in which its well known that popular builds will be often taken, and unpopular builds cant be relied on. Therefore, such builds shouldnt be forced. Not even in one battle.
Last edited by Pauli; Nov 18, 2009 at 11:39 AM // 11:39..
Pauli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 12:27 PM // 12:27   #87
Forge Runner
 
the_jos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Guild: Hard Mode Legion [HML]
Profession: N/
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauli View Post
The conclusion is extremely clear. The current format supports popular and easy to play builds on the Kurzick side, while the Luxons are forced to take unpopular builds if they want to have a good chance to win.

This is a casual format in which its well known that popular builds will be often taken, and unpopular builds cant be relied on. Therefore, such builds shouldnt be forced. Not even in one battle.
Let's assume that the turtle blocking is fixed somehow.
What do we have left then?

Heal/prot monks seem to be common on Kurz side and rare on Luxon side. Has this to do with popularity? Or easier to play builds? No, it's because on Kurz side people know you need to keep stuff alive to win. For some reason people on Lux side decide in huge numbers that they rather play non-heal/prot roles and hope to win that way.
So my first suggestion to those players is to start thinking about learning to play monk or bring some support skills to keep the turtle alive.

Then we have various melee classes. Those work well on Kurzick side (running amber) and less well on Luxon side. That is, when the gates are not breached. Oh, that's not entirely true. Melee can take care of the amber runners. No amber means no repair of the gates once breached.
Melee has more advantage on Kurzick side, but isn't completely useless on Luxon side when played well.

Then we have casters. Mesmers and necro's have vulnerable builds? Sure, if it's build for one purpose. I played both necro and mesmer in FA and can stay alive just fine. And take care of gate healers at the same time.
There are several skills present to deal with a gate healer, one just might have to resort to secondary profession skills.

The main problem in my opinion remains a player problem.
Kurzicks seem to have a slight clue on what to do (run amber, delay other team by keeping gates closed or slowing turtles/players) while Luxons don't have a clue at all. Recapture amber mines? Can't do that, my build isn't fit for it. Kill or slow amber runners? Oh, can't do that either. Speed boosting turtles/warriors? No way, I need 8 skills to kill that enemy I cannot reach because he's behind a closed gate. Bring a useless build and you will be useless indeed.

Kurzick builds are popular because they work and increase chance of winning.
Luxons bring random 'popular' builds but fail to see that those don't increase the chance of winning. Sounds like there are more smart Kurzick players than smart Luxon players to me.
the_jos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 12:34 PM // 12:34   #88
Lion's Arch Merchant
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Netherlands
Guild: Utrecht Usurpators
Profession: D/
Default
Is this thread still alive? Stop trying to change my FA already, I like it just fine the way it is.
Nechrond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 02:10 PM // 14:10   #89
Grotto Attendant
 
upier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Done.
Guild: [JUNK]
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_jos View Post
Let's assume that the turtle blocking is fixed somehow.
What do we have left then?

Heal/prot monks seem to be common on Kurz side and rare on Luxon side. Has this to do with popularity? Or easier to play builds? No, it's because on Kurz side people know you need to keep stuff alive to win. For some reason people on Lux side decide in huge numbers that they rather play non-heal/prot roles and hope to win that way.
So my first suggestion to those players is to start thinking about learning to play monk or bring some support skills to keep the turtle alive.

Then we have various melee classes. Those work well on Kurzick side (running amber) and less well on Luxon side. That is, when the gates are not breached. Oh, that's not entirely true. Melee can take care of the amber runners. No amber means no repair of the gates once breached.
Melee has more advantage on Kurzick side, but isn't completely useless on Luxon side when played well.

Then we have casters. Mesmers and necro's have vulnerable builds? Sure, if it's build for one purpose. I played both necro and mesmer in FA and can stay alive just fine. And take care of gate healers at the same time.
There are several skills present to deal with a gate healer, one just might have to resort to secondary profession skills.

The main problem in my opinion remains a player problem.
Kurzicks seem to have a slight clue on what to do (run amber, delay other team by keeping gates closed or slowing turtles/players) while Luxons don't have a clue at all. Recapture amber mines? Can't do that, my build isn't fit for it. Kill or slow amber runners? Oh, can't do that either. Speed boosting turtles/warriors? No way, I need 8 skills to kill that enemy I cannot reach because he's behind a closed gate. Bring a useless build and you will be useless indeed.

Kurzick builds are popular because they work and increase chance of winning.
Luxons bring random 'popular' builds but fail to see that those don't increase the chance of winning. Sounds like there are more smart Kurzick players than smart Luxon players to me.
I'll be blunt here:
Advice like this is the reason why the Kurzick still lose.
upier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 03:05 PM // 15:05   #90
EXCESSIVE FLUTTERCUSSING
 
Kattar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Guild: SMS (lolgw2placeholder)
Profession: Me/
Default
So are we talking about tactics or how FA needs to be fixed?

(Spoiler alert: it's a rhetorical question.)
__________________
All seems lost now, but still we must fight on.
Kattar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44   #91
Forge Runner
 
BlackSephir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Profession: A/N
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nechrond View Post
I like it just fine the way it is.
So I guess that means that FA doesn't have any problems.
Because you like it.
BlackSephir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01   #92
Forge Runner
 
IronSheik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wolfenstein: Goldrush
Guild: Zombies Go Nom Nom [Nom]
Profession: N/
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauli View Post
First of all, there's a way to hold the turtles without getting hurt at all.
This needs fixed and I will say that.

For the above roles the Luxons need (mostly): Ranged DPS builds (spells are way better here because of walls and perches), Protections builds for monks (or else its very hard to keep yourself AND the turtle alive), Skill Denial (to take care of gate monks, and other monks later) and/or very good strips.
I think you fail to see where the turtle is a luxury and it's almost moot to devote someone to keeping it alive. If you take your monk away to keep away something that gets stuck half the time that's having a blank player.

Skill denial isnt common for the reasons I mentioned before. Protections builds arent that common at all (I've been through many many many many battles without seeing one). Good strips are almost always taken by Necromancers or Memsers (mostly Necromancers) who have vulnerable builds (builds with very limited self survival options), and therefore they're much more rare. Rs, Ds, As, Ps and Ws are way less viable, which cancels quite a lot of options (they could be more viable if the walls were breached faster or more easily, and if the NPCs had less anti melee skills). In short, many of their viable builds are unpopular.

A blood necromancer with a level 3 well of the profane is vulnerable? A spiteful spirit necro is vulnerable when they can hex whatevers on them? Ether feast on a VoR mesmer is bad survivability? Distortion isn't good? Mesmers and necros make up one of the largest majorities of players on luxon side when I play, just none of them bring useful skills.

The conclusion is extremely clear. The current format supports popular and easy to play builds on the Kurzick side, while the Luxons are forced to take unpopular builds if they want to have a good chance to win.

Winning builds are unpopular? They don't have to devote whole bars to having a chance to win, just 1-2 skills.
he message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 12 characters.
Last edited by IronSheik; Nov 18, 2009 at 04:04 PM // 16:04..
IronSheik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 09:04 PM // 21:04   #93
Academy Page
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_jos View Post
Let's assume that the turtle blocking is fixed somehow.
What do we have left then?

Heal/prot monks seem to be common on Kurz side and rare on Luxon side. Has this to do with popularity? Or easier to play builds? No, it's because on Kurz side people know you need to keep stuff alive to win. For some reason people on Lux side decide in huge numbers that they rather play non-heal/prot roles and hope to win that way.
So my first suggestion to those players is to start thinking about learning to play monk or bring some support skills to keep the turtle alive.

Then we have various melee classes. Those work well on Kurzick side (running amber) and less well on Luxon side. That is, when the gates are not breached. Oh, that's not entirely true. Melee can take care of the amber runners. No amber means no repair of the gates once breached.
Melee has more advantage on Kurzick side, but isn't completely useless on Luxon side when played well.

Then we have casters. Mesmers and necro's have vulnerable builds? Sure, if it's build for one purpose. I played both necro and mesmer in FA and can stay alive just fine. And take care of gate healers at the same time.
There are several skills present to deal with a gate healer, one just might have to resort to secondary profession skills.
First of all, being a skill denial mesmer, I know that good protection monks (mostly protection) arent as popular as you make it look like. In most cases its no more than one. I rough estimation would be around 20% of the fights without even one protections monk, and 70% of the fights with one protections monk maximum. at about 6-7% of the battles you get two monks that are mostly protectors and in extreme cases you have three such monks. Sure, its my experience here and there's a lot I havent seen, but when at (roughly) 90% of the cases there was no more than one monk who was mostly protections, you get the idea, and I've fought a lot (and I mean a lot) at FA.

Most monks are smiters, healers or bonders that dont concentrate much on protectons beyond that. That said, its not that popular. Furthermore, whenever I was DPS, I cant say most of my opponents were well tended by a monk, much less a protections (protections mostly) monk. It sure is about popularity AND (this is an important point here), the Kurzicks have much more to earn from bringing protections (mostly protections) monks, while the Luxons have much less to earn by bringing them. Kurzicks can keep the gate up for a long time, and save themselves from defeat by protecting the last NPC. What will the Luxons do? Protect a Turtle that gets stuck in one place?

Getting the mines helps much more than any monk ever will. You get a close res point, and you prevent the Amber transferals, which has a lot to do with delaying the Luxons' entrance (or preventing it once they got in). Your suggestion to protect the Turtle is invalid because of the reasons I mentioned above.

Melee are a lot less viable for the Luxons because: They have a hard time taking down the gates and the mines, the Kurzicks have gates and perches, catching an Amber runner is much more difficult without range, and that's a fact. That pretty much leaves them useless (not entirely, but still). Oh, I almost forgot to mention the anti melee defenses on the last NPC. Those defenses make their lives miserable. I'm no against making it hard to take the last NPC down, but what I said is a fact.

There are so many spike builds going on at FA. You cant possibly say that you arent going to get killed often, if you really try to do your job well. hexed monks, or other hexed enemies are going a little back to get their friends' support. All the hexes you've spread will make people hate you and seek you. A good strip build (N) or a skill denial build (Me) will not be able to survive a decent spike. That's twice as true if that build is multi purpose, which takes more skill slots.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the_jos View Post
The main problem in my opinion remains a player problem.
Kurzicks seem to have a slight clue on what to do (run amber, delay other team by keeping gates closed or slowing turtles/players) while Luxons don't have a clue at all. Recapture amber mines? Can't do that, my build isn't fit for it. Kill or slow amber runners? Oh, can't do that either. Speed boosting turtles/warriors? No way, I need 8 skills to kill that enemy I cannot reach because he's behind a closed gate. Bring a useless build and you will be useless indeed.

Kurzick builds are popular because they work and increase chance of winning.
Luxons bring random 'popular' builds but fail to see that those don't increase the chance of winning. Sounds like there are more smart Kurzick players than smart Luxon players to me.
What are you talking about? The turtle isnt worth protecting because of reasons we said so many times. Speed boosting the turtles/warriors? What? What for? The turtle isnt going to move an inch (you already know why), and the warriors will usually be long gone because of DoT and/or AoE (both are common). The Warriors will also get stuck near the turtle anyway, which means they wont move an inch.

Recapturing Amber mines happens a lot when I'm fighting. On top of it, dont forget that all those classes which are so great for the perching (and therefore so popular on the Kurzick side) are also viable for taking mines. Some mines can even be taken from the Kurzick walls, no less!

The Kurzicks always have, more or less, one task to deal with. Amber before the walls are breached, inner defense (with few going to the Amber mines sometimes) and then defending the last NPC. The Luxons have to breach the gates, protect the mines, protect the turtles. All those tasks were given, at the same time, to an uncoordinated team of casuals.

I'm sorry, but none of the things you claimed in your post are right, and therefore the conclusion that its the players' fault (and not the design's fault) cant be accepted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nechrond View Post
Is this thread still alive? Stop trying to change my FA already, I like it just fine the way it is.
Another person who has nothing constructive to bring to the table and just wants things the way he likes them. There's nothing to see here guys. Move along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
I'll be blunt here:
Advice like this is the reason why the Kurzick still lose.
I absolutely agree. More details can be found in my reply to his post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsumi View Post
So are we talking about tactics or how FA needs to be fixed?

(Spoiler alert: it's a rhetorical question.)
No.1 rule when designing a PvP map for casuals. Dont force builds on either side, because you know casuals will bring what they prefer. Tactics include coordination and good builds (usually the builds are coordinated as well). How is that supposed to be a mandatory requirement for a random team of casuals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSephir View Post
So I guess that means that FA doesn't have any problems.
Because you like it.
Its ok. Nobody cares about such comments. Look at this thread. Many posters are taking each other seriously when they post constructively and post arguements. Nobody takes posts like his seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronSheik View Post
he message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 12 characters.
The person I replied to was posting in a constructive way, and my way of respecting him was providing as much detail as I could. You dont have to read it if you dont like.
Last edited by Pauli; Nov 18, 2009 at 09:14 PM // 21:14..
Pauli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 09:11 PM // 21:11   #94
Lion's Arch Merchant
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Scotland
Guild: The Illuminati
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauli View Post
Learn what a casual format is, and how to design a PvP map for them. Forcing builds to win a casual match is one big fail.
End of thread (for Brother Andicus).

...
Could I expect anyone to act like me? No, I cant. Its nothing more than the basics of designing a map for casuals. Dont force builds which are only prefered by rare people.

I hate to break it to you (yes, again), but skill is the way you use your build and casuals dont only lack skill in many cases, but also bring prefered builds. That's the basics of designing a map for casuals. You shouldnt force them to bring builds that are rarely prefered (rare is the key word here). Its about builds people have fun playing. Its about preferences.

Solo builds with a lot of ways to survive and/or run away are popular because many casuals dont like it when they die. Such builds can hold the turtle in one place,even though they can hold the turtle without being hurt at all (which is one of the major issues here). Skill denial builds, which are extremely useful against monks (among others), are very vulnerable and dont have the satisfaction of killing, also because they cant coordinate the lockdown with damage from other people. Therefore, such builds are unpopular.

Conclusion

It all boils down to everyone here asking one thing: Let skill be the factor that decides who's going to win. Skill and team work, while taking into account the fact that we dont know who will our team mates be or which class/build will they choose.

What we have yet to agree about is forcing builds (especially ones that are rarely prefered), and like I already said, its one big fail when someone designs a map for casuals this way.
I think you are placing far to much emphasis on the casual bit.
Its a pvp mode. In a ANY pvp mode players will try to win.
Kurzicks bring the builds they do because they are trying to win. If luxons want to win, they need to know what to expect and counter it.
If they dont want to adapt to the opposition and want to run their build, they shouldn't be in pvp, they should play pve instead.

Its not even like its a big change for ANY build. In most other formats of the game a player will take a res skill. In FA all they need to do is replace it with a skill that is useful for FA and they are set.
Brother Andicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21   #95
Academy Page
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Andicus View Post
I think you are placing far to much emphasis on the casual bit.
Its a pvp mode. In a ANY pvp mode players will try to win.
Kurzicks bring the builds they do because they are trying to win. If luxons want to win, they need to know what to expect and counter it.
If they dont want to adapt to the opposition and want to run their build, they shouldn't be in pvp, they should play pve instead.

Its not even like its a big change for ANY build. In most other formats of the game a player will take a res skill. In FA all they need to do is replace it with a skill that is useful for FA and they are set.
While you're right, in a way, there's a major difference between PvP formats such as Random Arenas and the Jade Quarry or Fort Aspenwood (even the Alliance Battles, to an extent), and formats such as the Codex Arena, Guilds vs Guild and Heroes' Ascent.

A person looking for a serious challenge will go, in most cases, to organised PvP. Its no secret that many players there are better than many ones you'll find at RA, FA or the JA. Organised PvP enables the option of voice communication, player selection, build selection and more.

Places like RA, JQ and FA force you on the group, no matter what you bring. If you think many people dont use it to their advantage, you're totally wrong. You'll find leechers, griefers, people who dont care much about their builds or classes or their viability in general. I'm not saying all those who go to the JA, RA of FA fall into the above categories. I'm saying that many such people find their way into this format. Furthermore, there's no chance to coordinate builds, to use voice communication, and you usually dont even say a few welcome words (like "hi") to your team members.

There's a reason I keep mentioning this term (casuals). Its because this format is vastly different than organised PvP in many ways and it has an extremely great impact on the battles themselves. Its foolish at best, for those who design such maps, to ignore those facts.
Last edited by Pauli; Nov 18, 2009 at 09:32 PM // 21:32..
Pauli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 09:57 PM // 21:57   #96
Grotto Attendant
 
upier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Done.
Guild: [JUNK]
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Andicus View Post
Its not even like its a big change for ANY build. In most other formats of the game a player will take a res skill. In FA all they need to do is replace it with a skill that is useful for FA and they are set.
You want to certainly have Profane on your team?
YOU need to bring it.
Same thing with deep ench strips.
YOU need to bring it.
Otherwise you are relying on your party members to fulfil the NECESSARY roles. To fill the roles without which it's going to be near impossible to win.
Which means if you want Profane and targeted ench removal - you need to either be a primary or a secondary necro.
ALWAYS.

That's certainly NOT a minor adjustment.
upier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 18, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12   #97
Academy Page
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
You want to certainly have Profane on your team?
YOU need to bring it.
Same thing with deep ench strips.
YOU need to bring it.
Otherwise you are relying on your party members to fulfil the NECESSARY roles. To fill the roles without which it's going to be near impossible to win.
Which means if you want Profane and targeted ench removal - you need to either be a primary or a secondary necro.
ALWAYS.

That's certainly NOT a minor adjustment.
I completely agree (again). Therefore I made my suggestion about the NPC who'll be able to provide a prolonged stripping (more details ca be found in my first post in this thread).

I remember the days I was still going to the university (Psychology) and we learned one important fact there, which relates directly to the situation at hand: In public situations (like the one at FA, when you're playing with strangers), people will always try to rely on others to do what they dont want to do.

Players, in general, prefer not to take the good strips. Its a fact. There's no way around it. Its because of this fact they rely on others to do it for them, which doesnt usually happen (surprise surprise).

There's also that well known experiment in which people are given the opportunity to cooperate with strangers, or f*** them and gain more. Guess what people do 90% of the time (no less)? They f*** strangers to get a little more than they get if they cooperate with them. People dont usually care much about strangers, especially when its all anonimous the way its over the internet.

The people in your team are random strangers. Enough said.
Pauli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 19, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00   #98
Lion's Arch Merchant
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Scotland
Guild: The Illuminati
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauli View Post
I remember the days I was still going to the university (Psychology) and we learned one important fact there, which relates directly to the situation at hand: In public situations (like the one at FA, when you're playing with strangers), people will always try to rely on others to do what they dont want to do.

Players, in general, prefer not to take the good strips. Its a fact. There's no way around it. Its because of this fact they rely on others to do it for them, which doesnt usually happen (surprise surprise).

There's also that well known experiment in which people are given the opportunity to cooperate with strangers, or f*** them and gain more. Guess what people do 90% of the time (no less)? They f*** strangers to get a little more than they get if they cooperate with them. People dont usually care much about strangers, especially when its all anonimous the way its over the internet.

The people in your team are random strangers. Enough said.
I'll agree with all of that, but to me all you just proved is that it is the luxon playerbase which is broken, not the game mode.

Asking maybe 2 members of a 8 man team to bring maybe 3 skills between them specific to the game mode they are playing seems absolutely fine to me.

I've played many games on both sides, and its VERY rare to see a side with no primary or secondary nec or mes.

When I play either side, I first decide what class I want to play, and then depending on that class I pick a skill or two that will be suited to the map.
If I choose to play necro that means well of profane.
If I choose mesmer I take shatter and drain enchant (hardly a burdon).
Feel like a paragon, fallback and holy spear(1 skill to negate any possible minions)
If I play monk, on Kurzick thats nearly always Healers Boon since other builds have more problems with the turtle strip.
On luxon a fairly normal hybrid prot bar, but instead of warrior stances or dark escape maybe drain enchant, rip enchant, scourge healing.

Now I have a background with organised pvp which I accept puts my approach to FA slightly different to more "casual" players, but to me there is nothing wrong with asking individual players to make 1 or 2 skills on their bar taylored to the arena they are playing in.
And if they don't like the skills then either suck it up or continue to lose.
Brother Andicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 19, 2009, 12:19 AM // 00:19   #99
Academy Page
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Andicus View Post
I'll agree with all of that, but to me all you just proved is that it is the luxon playerbase which is broken, not the game mode.

Asking maybe 2 members of a 8 man team to bring maybe 3 skills between them specific to the game mode they are playing seems absolutely fine to me.

I've played many games on both sides, and its VERY rare to see a side with no primary or secondary nec or mes.

When I play either side, I first decide what class I want to play, and then depending on that class I pick a skill or two that will be suited to the map.
If I choose to play necro that means well of profane.
If I choose mesmer I take shatter and drain enchant (hardly a burdon).
Feel like a paragon, fallback and holy spear(1 skill to negate any possible minions)
If I play monk, on Kurzick thats nearly always Healers Boon since other builds have more problems with the turtle strip.
On luxon a fairly normal hybrid prot bar, but instead of warrior stances or dark escape maybe drain enchant, rip enchant, scourge healing.

Now I have a background with organised pvp which I accept puts my approach to FA slightly different to more "casual" players, but to me there is nothing wrong with asking individual players to make 1 or 2 skills on their bar taylored to the arena they are playing in.
And if they don't like the skills then either suck it up or continue to lose.
While being one of well made posts in this thread, you missed the point. You talk about yourself, which is perfectly fine, but the fact is that many people dont act the same way. I might act in a similar way to yours, because I care about my viability, but that doesnt mean everybody does.

While you see nothing wrong with forcing builds, you're not in charge of designing this map. Maps are designed for players to play. More specifically, each format has a target audience. FA is a casual map, and its crystal clear. We both know its true. Since maps are designed for players to play in, they must be popular, or else why should the company spend resources to create, maintain and balance them?

If you had to be that designer, and you had to be the one to explain the reasons its not popular enough (and you might lose your job), would you still do something to reduce that map's popularity? There are two major aspects (among others) which are critical for a casual map like FA: Balance and freedom (to an extent, of course). Balance is something I dont want to discuss here because its just too much, so lets talk about freedom.

Freedom, in this case, is a related to balance. If you allow certain decent builds to have extremely more impact than other decent builds, you dont really allow enough freedom for a casual (also random) team. If decent builds have, more or less, the same impact on the battle's outcome, you hit the spot. Viability is one of the key words here.

Casuals play this PvP format because they're having fun. Many casuals dont have fun, especially in the long run, if they're forced to run specific builds because those builds have significantly more impact (providing they're both at least decent). They get bored, and they leave. They stop playing. The map becomes less popular and then you ask yourself again: Why did I design this map if its rather unpopular or seriously unpopular? Content is made for players to play, and if they dont want to play it, the designer failed.
Pauli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 19, 2009, 12:59 AM // 00:59   #100
Lion's Arch Merchant
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Scotland
Guild: The Illuminati
Default
I'd actually classify all the Factions game types as semi casual as they all have certain 'rules' and objectives that if you want to succeed have the effect of 'forcing' builds.
AB and JQ are all about speed buffs and alter nuking, FA needs either nukes and strips or heals and shutdown.

I'd much rather not talk about freedom.
Freedom gave us Ursan, Freedom continues to give us SF. It was acknowledged in an interview recently that these 2 items have been allowed to dominate pve in order to allow players to play content that was to difficult for them. My personal opinion is this ruins the game for those that are able. Instead its better to help educate the playerbase so they become better players. Thirsty River is a good example of this, and i'd hope to see more of the same for GW2.

Part of what makes FA fun where RA is very unfun is the fact the game has 'rules'. Part of the skill of a player in GW is picking and utilising an appropriate build. In FA regardless of the side I fight on, I know that I can make a positive impact on the game just by doing this. By allowing more build 'freedom' all we do is take away an element of the skill of GW and take a step closer to 8v8 RA. You then may as well call it PvX playground and watch degenerate players use degenerate builds they copied from google because they don't have the ability to judge what is useful for themselves.

So yes, if what your 'casual' player wants is big sandpit with no rules, then the designer has failed.
However as a baby step towards the build/strategy - counterbuild/counterstrategy of competetive pvp the designer has made an entertaining game mode that is inclusive for all players and introduces some key concepts (running skills, snares, enchants and removals) to beginning pvpers
Brother Andicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 5 of 7 « First < 34 5 67 >

Share This Forum!  
 
 
           

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:03 AM // 08:03.

Contact Us - Guild Wars Guru - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
jQuery(document).ready(checkAds()); function checkAds(){if (document.getElementById('adsense')!=undefined){document.write("_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Adblock', 'Unblocked', 'false',,true]);");}else{document.write("