Curse

Axel Zinfandel · Jan 06, 2010, 05:27 AM // 05:27

I see what you're trying to do: make a lower recharge shadow step for PvE

However, you've messing with a skill that's fine as is to do it :/

upier · Jan 06, 2010, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

How about a PvE version of death's charge - you shadowstep to target (friend/foe/both?) and are healed for 50....250 health.

5e 1/4c 10r

Do I win?

The heal is pretty useless. Plus the recharge is still pretty high - 5 sec recharge would be much better.
I am not sure if I'd replace Wastrels' with DE on a 10 sec recharge.

Reformed · Jan 06, 2010, 03:42 PM // 15:42

That and it's basically the same thing as Ebon Escape. If anything I would like to see them remove the aftercast from Death's Charge in PvE or drop the recharge time to make it practical. They could probably make Beguiling Haze 10/15. It's already great but this would be more forgiving to running attack spam behind it. I could also see them altering a certain other skill to be a shadow step in keeping with it's name and the theme of the attribute line.

MagmaRed · Jan 06, 2010, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I also explained that the reason why I selected Shadow Sanctuary to be remade into this is because the current SS is not only obscenely sub-par, but it's also completely sub-par to what the reworked version would be like.

Really? I haven't seen proof of that, and I have seen people say they like and use the skills as it is. It may be sub-par for how YOU want to use it, but that doesn't mean it has a problem. As noted, Shadow Sanctuary provides an attribute free self heal that is better than any other attribute free self heal, AND is better than most skills using an attribute. Explain how and why it is "obscenely sub-par" and you might get some support, but it isn't viewed as such.

upier · Jan 06, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Really? I haven't seen proof of that, and I have seen people say they like and use the skills as it is. It may be sub-par for how YOU want to use it, but that doesn't mean it has a problem. As noted, Shadow Sanctuary provides an attribute free self heal that is better than any other attribute free self heal, AND is better than most skills using an attribute. Explain how and why it is "obscenely sub-par" and you might get some support, but it isn't viewed as such.

You are comparing a PvE-only self-heal in a game where not only you have guys dedicated to keeping you alive but you ALWAYS have those guys with you due to the crappy self-heal options with a skill that would allow the best damage dealers in the game being more potent due to the removal of positioning AND due to ward-size constant cripple?
Seriously?

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 06, 2010, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Shadow Sanctuary is a brilliant skill for use by secondaries. A monk or ritualist, for example, could carry it as an emergency in case of extreme pressure.

A ward-sized constant cripple combined with MS/DB is preposterous. And if you did want a skill to do that, you could pick a skill like, I don't know... deadly paradox? And change that skill instead.

upier · Jan 06, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Shadow Sanctuary is a brilliant skill for use by secondaries. A monk or ritualist, for example, could carry it as an emergency in case of extreme pressure.

In PvE that matters?
A spirit master will not use SS.
And well, you're kinda not running monks these days.
The current SS has no use outside of builds that just don't matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

A ward-sized constant cripple combined with MS/DB is preposterous. And if you did want a skill to do that, you could pick a skill like, I don't know... deadly paradox? And change that skill instead.

Yes, I did express my concerns that the skill is "slightly" insane. And as I mentioned, the length of being unable to cast spells or the length of the cripple could be used to modified to somewhat "balance" it. Heck even the range could go down from "in the area" to "nearby".
Whereas for the idea of modifying a skill that also exists in PvP - I would much rather see those skills be given a new functionality so that they are useful in both modes and keep the things that cause massive issues in PvP to be PvE only - and what better way than with a PvE only skill.

The Drunkard · Jan 06, 2010, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Meh, I really like the skill as a secondary self heal.

If anything the recharge for existing shadow steps should be adjusted

/notsigned

MagmaRed · Jan 07, 2010, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You are comparing a PvE-only self-heal in a game where not only you have guys dedicated to keeping you alive but you ALWAYS have those guys with you due to the crappy self-heal options with a skill that would allow the best damage dealers in the game being more potent due to the removal of positioning AND due to ward-size constant cripple?
Seriously?

In PvE, as well as PvP, a self heal is important. The Monks have more than 1 person to keep alive, and at times they will be kiting to keep themselves alive. In short, a Monk cannot keep you alive 100% of the time without some help. Proper positiioning plays an important role in that, but a simple self heal to relieve some pressure from the Monk is important as well. With Shadow Steps, positioning becomes even more difficult for most people. Few people are aware of enemy and team positions for PvE play. Yes, that is essential knowledge for PvP, and they learn it fast. But the general PvE player does not learn that most of the time. So when you jump across the screen with a shadowstep and are out of range of your Monk, a self heal will allow you time to reach the range the Monk can heal you (or for the idiots, the time for the Monk to reach you).

If you want a large snare, there are some already. Dervish has access to AoE cripple and Ele has access to a ward and spells like Deep Freeze. Or if you want, take Fevered Dreams and use Leaping Mantis, Black Mantis, etc. to spread it around.

I still don't see a reason to change Shadow Sanctuary. You say it is under powered, but I don't see you proving that, and I do see other people disagreeing with you.

upier · Jan 08, 2010, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

In PvE, as well as PvP, a self heal is important. The Monks have more than 1 person to keep alive, and at times they will be kiting to keep themselves alive. In short, a Monk cannot keep you alive 100% of the time without some help. Proper positioning plays an important role in that, but a simple self heal to relieve some pressure from the Monk is important as well. With Shadow Steps, positioning becomes even more difficult for most people. Few people are aware of enemy and team positions for PvE play. Yes, that is essential knowledge for PvP, and they learn it fast. But the general PvE player does not learn that most of the time. So when you jump across the screen with a shadowstep and are out of range of your Monk, a self heal will allow you time to reach the range the Monk can heal you (or for the idiots, the time for the Monk to reach you).

If you want a large snare, there are some already. Dervish has access to AoE cripple and Ele has access to a ward and spells like Deep Freeze. Or if you want, take Fevered Dreams and use Leaping Mantis, Black Mantis, etc. to spread it around.

I still don't see a reason to change Shadow Sanctuary. You say it is under powered, but I don't see you proving that, and I do see other people disagreeing with you.

People are arguing that they are using the skill, and hopefully NOT that it's good. And even so, it's only being used in areas which don't really matter.

Whereas for the rest of your post, yeah ... no.

MagmaRed · Jan 08, 2010, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Read posts #2, #4, #13, and #14. It looks like I saw people saying the skill was good, and I even saw some reasons/data to back that up. But since you can't see what is in front of you (people use the skill, people find the skill to be useful) and can't provide a reason to change it, I'll stop posting.

UnChosen · Jan 08, 2010, 09:29 PM // 21:29

/not signed.

Sins don't need yet ANOTHER teleport offensive "support" spells, we have enough of that as it is. In the hand of newbies it just promote MORE "naruto" play style (teleport in, grabbing all the aggro, teleport out, send all the aggro to monk

), and more experienced players have better options to mass cripple without a glass canon messing with their aggro. What SS needs to be reworked is a more viable tanking/defense skill that can be kept up indefinitely. Just lowering the recharge or make it reapply on critical hit or other conditions is better IMO.

upier · Jan 08, 2010, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Read posts #2, #4, #13, and #14. It looks like I saw people saying the skill was good, and I even saw some reasons/data to back that up. But since you can't see what is in front of you (people use the skill, people find the skill to be useful) and can't provide a reason to change it, I'll stop posting.

I'll be blunt here - if a player thinks that the current version of SS is a good skill, that just means that that player is bad.
Now, I completely understand not caring about running the best option - and I am fine with that.
But that doesn't make this skill magically good.