Curse

Shriketalon · Jan 11, 2010, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

4 - Hostile NPC bars.

And this is the problem. Because there are so many worthless filler skills in monster bars, those monsters are ridiculously simple. A lot of the nerfing/buffing focuses on the meta, but it ignores the filler, ergo the monsters never really get better at doing there job.

When was the last time you actually worried about a mesmer monster? Or were concerned about the damage inflicted by a ranger? Or saw a NPCsin dancing across the backline? Or saw a dervish doing....whatever dervishes do? Part of this is AI, sure, but another part is that monsters are using pathetic filler skills which aren't worth anyone's time. 95% of the time in PvE, if it isn't an ele or a healer, it isn't really worth notice.

If we change the filler skills, monsters get tougher. If monsters get tougher, PvE becomes more challenging and more interesting. And isn't that the point?

Skye Marin · Jan 12, 2010, 04:57 AM // 04:57

I think the point is to improve build diversity and freshen up the meta, as well as let unpopular classes into groups, but yet not fill groups with those same classes. Useful to a team, is the goal.

PvE being a touch harder is just a small perk.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 12, 2010, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

If we change the filler skills, monsters get tougher. If monsters get tougher, PvE becomes more challenging and more interesting. And isn't that the point?

Better idea is to do the skill balance, then go back and adjust monster skill bars or give them new ones, adjusting the bars to be highly effective.

Simply powering up a couple filler skills isn't going to make monsters particularly more difficult. However, giving them a potent and effective skill bar, particularly one that synergizes with the rest of the mob, will greatly increase difficulty.

Shriketalon · Jan 12, 2010, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Better idea is to do the skill balance, then go back and adjust monster skill bars or give them new ones, adjusting the bars to be highly effective.

Simply powering up a couple filler skills isn't going to make monsters particularly more difficult. However, giving them a potent and effective skill bar, particularly one that synergizes with the rest of the mob, will greatly increase difficulty.

Dare to dream. Aye, that would be better, but the little pessimist within whispers that this probably won't occur. Which is a shame, because it would help a lot.

Morphy · Jan 12, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Don't play with PUGs. Fixd. Or even better, don't play PvE. Fixd.

lilondra · Jan 12, 2010, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I'd say that by design Assassins,mesmers,ritualists and necromancers would be really weak in PvE.Assassins are pure mobility,mesmers are shutdown,ritualists only got spirits (you need more mobility then that) and necromancers only got minions to keep them alive.However anet will always introduce something broken enough to make these classes viable once in a while.So there is no prof that will never see use.

Example :
SF or instakill for sins,
Sabway for necro's (soul reaping)
The lolspiritway for ritualists
Esurge/CoP,... (spiritual pain and co would also really pump out some damage)

So while in theory some classes may not be suited for pve by design, it is very unlikely that they will always be the inferior class as the game evolves.

I'd add that as long as you got enough (preferebly armor ignoring) damage you'll always have a use in HM (read:PvE)

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 12, 2010, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilondra

I'd say that by design Assassins,mesmers,ritualists and necromancers would be really weak in PvE.Assassins are pure mobility,mesmers are shutdown,ritualists only got spirits (you need more mobility then that) and necromancers only got minions to keep them alive.However anet will always introduce something broken enough to make these classes viable once in a while.So there is no prof that will never see use.

The stupid in this post makes my head hurt.

I'll give you an example, you seem to think necromancers are worthless (!) but not only that, you also believe minions to be the only point to them. Sure is never-even-looked-at Guild Wars in here.

UnChosen · Jan 12, 2010, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilondra

I'd say that by design Assassins,mesmers,ritualists and necromancers would be really weak in PvE.Assassins are pure mobility,mesmers are shutdown,ritualists only got spirits (you need more mobility then that) and necromancers only got minions to keep them alive.However anet will always introduce something broken enough to make these classes viable once in a while.So there is no prof that will never see use.

Example :
SF or instakill for sins,
Sabway for necro's (soul reaping)
The lolspiritway for ritualists
Esurge/CoP,... (spiritual pain and co would also really pump out some damage)

So while in theory some classes may not be suited for pve by design, it is very unlikely that they will always be the inferior class as the game evolves.

I'd add that as long as you got enough (preferebly armor ignoring) damage you'll always have a use in HM (read:PvE)

I agree with assassins, mesmers, and ritualist being weak...but necro? Definitely NOT weak at all.

reaper with no name · Jan 13, 2010, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Also forgot the dervish. At least Mesmers get sin summon spam. Dervishes have nothing.

lilondra · Jan 13, 2010, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

The stupid in this post makes my head hurt.

I'll give you an example, you seem to think necromancers are worthless (!) but not only that, you also believe minions to be the only point to them. Sure is never-even-looked-at Guild Wars in here.

You seem to confuse how necros are played and design.Good luck going trough hard mode with Things like Wither.A huge chunck of the necro design are hexes wich exept for SS and co are quite meh at best or is lifestealing wich due to the low damage isn't run over anything else.

If you didn't notice Necrosis/discord necro's abusing soul reaping are most popular.If you think this is the design of necromancers then you should play the game.Stop shouting RETARD! if you don't even have a clue what my point was.

lilondra · Jan 13, 2010, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Also forgot the dervish. At least Mesmers get sin summon spam. Dervishes have nothing.

Again I'm talking about the original design,nothing else.Dervishes have weapons that crit for 100+ and hit in AoE.Designwise thats pretty damn good for PvE.

Cuilan · Jan 13, 2010, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Are you sure Anet intended professions to remain as their original design? Elementalists have changed in many ways over the years much like the game Magic the Gathering has. A game of change. So if that's the case, original design means very little.

Lusciious · Jan 13, 2010, 10:47 PM // 22:47

change to what though ? to be more advanced in their current area e.g. nuking for eles or to move away from it and something new e.g supporting via wards ? Anet decided to go with something new for most professions . the only class imo that didnt change much from its original purpose is the nec . but again ... who am i to decide what nec's original purpose is ?

Turbo Ginsu · Jan 14, 2010, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Also forgot the dervish. At least Mesmers get sin summon spam. Dervishes have nothing.

Spoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about the class. Dervs have some seriously viable shit going on, and whilst a buff here or there would be nice, anyone who thinks they have "nothing" is deluding themselves.

reaper with no name · Jan 14, 2010, 05:54 PM // 17:54

When I say dervishes have nothing, I mean that they have nothing useful that can't be done better by other professions. If you know of an exception to this, please tell me about it. I'd love to be proven wrong on this.

lilondra · Jan 14, 2010, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

When I say dervishes have nothing, I mean that they have nothing useful that can't be done better by other professions. If you know of an exception to this, please tell me about it. I'd love to be proven wrong on this.

I'd say dervishes are viable to more then viable.Sure critscythes,Endurance scythe and co might do a better job overall but imo that doesn't mean you can't run a dervish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Are you sure Anet intended professions to remain as their original design? Elementalists have changed in many ways over the years much like the game Magic the Gathering has. A game of change. So if that's the case, original design means very little.

Yes and no.
Earth magic still is defensive spells up,Water magic still is snare shit,Air magic still is blind and spike and fire magic still is AoE,Big dommage and burn.

Now several changes did change how elementalists were played.At first there were no real powerfull elites so eles were primarely used as flagrunners in GvG and used energy management elites in general.
Obviously new campaigns = new elite skills and in this case real powerelites like Bsurge rose to power.

The second very important change would proly be Hard Mode.I mean when "elite pve'ers" (read: arrogant scrubs) PvE they tend to go HM and ignore NM alltogether.Wich is normal since it yields the best loot.

The problem with HM is that its f*ing HM.Basically : More armor,quicker cast time,IMS and co is a really bad idea.And the more armor part basically begs for armor ignoring damage.Blend in some mesmers getting CoP and co and you got elementalists pushed back to the ER role.

I guess I'm just explaining how I see it and that you'll proly not see new stuff but anyway.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 14, 2010, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

When I say dervishes have nothing, I mean that they have nothing useful that can't be done better by other professions.

Despite this, they are still quite capable of being useful in PvE as long as they're not being used by a complete idiot (such as an AoB Dervish).

Consider also that although critscythe and enduring scythe are stronger than the Dervish, a good Assassin will be running MS/DB anyways. I can't speak to the Warrior's behalf though because enduring scythe is actually as good as regular warrior builds. However, most Warriors don't run a good build (enduring scythe included) preferring instead to take a crappy Defy Pain build, so if you're a good Dervish you shouldn't really be facing much competition in parties with an intelligent group leader.

Let me say that again: a good Dervish can get into a smart group because very few Assassins and Warriors in PUGs actually run scythe builds, so there's very little competition.

And if there ARE good Assassins or Warriors around, they'll be running MS/DB and D-Slash and the Dervish will be hopelessly outclassed. But, at least they won't be using scythes, eh?

Every day, I bounce around through several groups in ZQ and ZB to try to find one that isn't composed of idiots (and I can do this because I play a Monk and just about any group will accept me). I do this both to enforce my points regarding the necessity of heroes, and also because I hope to one day find an intelligent group. I haven't found one yet, but I have observed that Dervishes aren't facing competition from scythe-wielding Assassins and Warriors. For that matter, there are very few Dervishes in the first place.

Also, I did make a Dervish and play him some ways into Nightfall. I did not enjoy it, but it was quite sufficient for HM gameplay. More so than pre-SoS Ritualists, and more so than post-SoS Ritualists who don't use SoS, and I played a Ritualist for over two years without feeling particularly disadvantaged. (Even though I faced genuine class discrimination before the SoS rework.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilondra

You seem to confuse how necros are played and design.Good luck going trough hard mode with Things like Wither.

How about Mark of Pain instead?

lilondra · Jan 14, 2010, 07:35 PM // 19:35

@ Zahr.Please keep your sanity.Stop saying stupid thinks like MoP being the design of necromancers (wich falls under SS and co since they are direct damage hexes anyway) before I get really really sarcastic.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 14, 2010, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilondra

Stop saying stupid thinks like MoP being the design of necromancers

I did not say that MoP is the "design of necromancers," which pretty much means that necromancers created it, and I don't think GW's dev team are necromancers themselves.

But I do say that MoP is a very, very good skill and you are silly if you think it isn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilondra

stupid thinks

Do you like irony? I like irony.

reaper with no name · Jan 14, 2010, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Despite this, they are still quite capable of being useful in PvE as long as they're not being used by a complete idiot (such as an AoB Dervish).

Consider also that although critscythe and enduring scythe are stronger than the Dervish, a good Assassin will be running MS/DB anyways. I can't speak to the Warrior's behalf though because enduring scythe is actually as good as regular warrior builds. However, most Warriors don't run a good build (enduring scythe included) preferring instead to take a crappy Defy Pain build, so if you're a good Dervish you shouldn't really be facing much competition in parties with an intelligent group leader.

Let me say that again: a good Dervish can get into a smart group because very few Assassins and Warriors in PUGs actually run scythe builds, so there's very little competition.

And if there ARE good Assassins or Warriors around, they'll be running MS/DB and D-Slash and the Dervish will be hopelessly outclassed. But, at least they won't be using scythes, eh?

Every day, I bounce around through several groups in ZQ and ZB to try to find one that isn't composed of idiots (and I can do this because I play a Monk and just about any group will accept me). I do this both to enforce my points regarding the necessity of heroes, and also because I hope to one day find an intelligent group. I haven't found one yet, but I have observed that Dervishes aren't facing competition from scythe-wielding Assassins and Warriors. For that matter, there are very few Dervishes in the first place.

Also, I did make a Dervish and play him some ways into Nightfall. I did not enjoy it, but it was quite sufficient for HM gameplay. More so than pre-SoS Ritualists, and more so than post-SoS Ritualists who don't use SoS, and I played a Ritualist for over two years without feeling particularly disadvantaged. (Even though I faced genuine class discrimination before the SoS rework.)

I'd say it's a little more complicated than that. There are some slight advantages to a scythe over MSDB (the AoE damage is slightly higher, said AoE damage is buffable, and you don't have to start an attack chain over when a foe dies; but you lose some single-target damage and don't hit as many foes), and D-slash warriors are inferior in AoE damage to scythes (though they have their own advantages, like SY spam). However, the two of us have gone through this before, and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether or not the dervish needs a buff.