Curse

reaper with no name · Dec 02, 2009, 06:56 PM // 18:56

MoP is an...Interesting skill. The more enemies you are facing, the more powerful it becomes.

I think I understand what the OP is saying, because if we were truly honest with ourselves, I think we could all admit that at the very least HB+Whirlwind Attack+MoP is overpowered, just like we could all admit that PvE skills are overpowered (despite the fact that some classes such as the Paragon require them in order to have a use in PvE).

Or is it?

Now, I personally don't have any experience with teams that employ this, so I'll have to fall back on math (which really, is more reliable for things like this anyway, since it eliminates the variables of randomness and player skill).

At 14 Curses, MoP does 38 shadow damage. A warrior with 14 swordsmanship will do (18.5*(1-.196) + 22*1.41*.196)= roughly 21 raw dmg per hit. Of course, actual damage is more complicated. But since I'm feeling lazy, I'll just take as a given that HM enemies take half damage and ignore the effects of strength. And then we throw in inscriptions and customization, and we get an effective damage of about 14.5.

Of course, the AoE from HB is 24 at 14 swordsmanship, which HM enemies will reduce to 12.

Let's assume that the warrior attacks once per second, and each second attack is Whirlwind Attack.

For the first attack, he will hit the AoE targets for 12+38= 50 damage. For the second attack, the damage goes like this:

AoE damage per target for all targets except the one with MoP= 14.5 + (12+38)*number of targets hit by whirlwind attack

For 2 enemies, that means the lone AoE target will take 114.5 damage. For 3 enemies, the 2 AoE targets will each take 164.5 damage. And each additional enemy beyond that is 50 more damage for each target that isn't hexed by MoP.

For the target that is hexed by MoP, however, the damage is simply:

14.5 + 12*number of targets hit by whirlwind attack

For 2 targets hit by whirlwind attack, that's 38.5 damage. For 3, it's 50.5. For 4, it's 62.5.

Now, let's compare that to MSDB. MSDB gets a little over 40 AoE dps. However, the primary target damage is much greater. In fact, it's far beyond what HB+WhirlwindAttack+MoP can do except under the most extreme of circumstances. The same is true of scythes.

MoP seems scary, but when you do the math and think of what is required for it to be used properly (not like you can depend on the monsters doing what you want, especially with the scatter), as well as it's low primary target damage, it's not nearly as bad.

Plus, let's not forget that MoP is a key part of the HB+WA build that is one of the key reasons to play as a warrior. I personally loathe the idea of a profession being redundant, and nerfing MoP would move the warrior one step closer to it.

The Drunkard · Dec 02, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

/notsigned

the problem lies with HB, MoP is fine

pumpkin pie · Dec 03, 2009, 03:12 AM // 03:12

My Necromancer uses Mark of Pain for ages and suddenly theres a problem with it?

BTW
/notsigned

People should try combination of SS, MoP and OoP

don't forget to bring your minion master and watch your screen goes up in yellow numbers fireworks

Arkantos · Dec 03, 2009, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Because keeping Shadow Form up is good technique. They should be rewarded.

No thanks.

Why do you think only teams with SF use MoP? MoP has been used way before SF ever became what it is.

Besides, SF is getting nerfed next month.

Xenomortis · Dec 03, 2009, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

People should try combination of SS, MoP and OoP

Why would I bother with SS?
SS isn't going to achieve anything meaningful in such a setup.

Wubbies · Dec 03, 2009, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Pretty sure you aren't making any sense whatsoever.

pretty sure this thread doesnt make sense to nerf mop.. thats my point.. sorry im 2 smart for you to get my humor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tejive

/notsigned, why should I explain? Lets nerf all the skills so they have 60second recharge and do +1 dmg.

see^^ this person has humor like me. will u run for president?

Cuilan · Dec 03, 2009, 05:50 PM // 17:50

If MoP is on your bar and you're not abusing it, you're choosing to do less damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Why do you think only teams with SF use MoP? MoP has been used way before SF ever became what it is.

I don't think MoP has only been used with SF.

Xenomortis · Dec 03, 2009, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

If MoP is on your bar and you're not abusing it, you're choosing to do less damage.

Why is effective use being called abuse?

Olim Chill · Dec 03, 2009, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

MoP has existed in its current form since the beginning of the game. It's strong in the right hands, and weak in the wrong hands, always has been. It hasn't been a problem in the past 4 years and it isn't now.

Exactly this.

Tenebrae · Dec 03, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Why is effective use being called abuse?

It is not. He only calls it abuse because he thinks its overpowered but its not .

upier · Dec 04, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

It is not. He only calls it abuse because he thinks its overpowered but its not .

Of course it's overpowered.
And to argue that it takes "skill" to pull out the insane damage that shouldn't be possible is like arguing that there is nothing wrong with SF because "it has counters".

Come on, we aren't bad. We wouldn't be using it if it wasn't absolutely insane.

Xenomortis · Dec 04, 2009, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

It is not. He only calls it abuse because he thinks its overpowered but its not .

It's fairly strong and it seems fair to call it overpowered.
But even then, I'm not sure how using it effectively constitutes abuse.

The same applies to Shadow Form. The devs clearly made and "balanced" this skill with farming and speed clearing in mind - using it to achieve stupid clear times is evidently not abuse.
That doesn't mean it's any less stupid though.

I still hold that MoP is fine as is, but the real killer is AP - that skill completely removes its balancing factor.*

*Before you call me out on this and apply that logic to SF; note that AP removes the balancing factor (recharge) on a lot of skills, turning them into something very powerful; a lot of the PvE skills for instance, many ele nukes, etc.

Captain Krompdown · Dec 04, 2009, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

MoP has existed in its current form since the beginning of the game. ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olim Chill

Exactly this.

This just isn't true (no matter how many people repeat it). MoP used to be even sweeter back in the day.

HigherMinion · Dec 04, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Krompdown

I wish they'd un-nerf it, actually. MoP used to be triggered by all damage, not just physical. That opened up some really fun/annoying builds.

When was this?

Vazze · Dec 04, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Hm, some here are either ignorant or afraid of losing their little baby. Mop used with a physical team/MM/etc is fine. Mop with a tank and the HB/Whirlwind combo is way stronger than any nuke ever used before.

So if you are under the illusion that anet is nerfing skills in pve because they are op, you can sign this thread. The tank/mop/HB-whirlwind combo is better than cop was at its peak (at that time HB had a different effect) and cop was promptly nerfed. The only disadvantage of mop is range which is not an issue as long as pve mob AI is below the level of a sea urchin.

Scary · Dec 04, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Does way too much damage and is insanely overpowered in a semi-focused group or one based around it. Discuss.

Men a other mindless Necro hater.

MoP isn't overpowerd as skill it self. It all comes down to the tank with again
SF. Try to use MoP in a hero team, it will shatter all groups as normal AoE
skills.

Really wish that people starting to suggets valuable game changes instead
of keep asking to nerf skills.

Tenebrae · Dec 04, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Of course it's overpowered.
And to argue that it takes "skill" to pull out the insane damage that shouldn't be possible is like arguing that there is nothing wrong with SF because "it has counters".
Come on, we aren't bad. We wouldn't be using it if it wasn't absolutely insane.

Im going to pretend that you are not comparing it to SF.
Is not overpowered at all , i explained why some posts before , soz , not going to repeat myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

It's fairly strong and it seems fair to call it overpowered.
But even then, I'm not sure how using it effectively constitutes abuse.

There are about 1XX skills that fit the definition "strong if used well but not overpowered" . MoP is one of them.
Ill tell you my criteria to see if something is overpowered :
- Comparing it with same skills of same style
- If you ALONE or with 1 more person/hero use it in some combo , you beat the crap out of the game.
Gotta match those 2 without a doubt and MoP doesnt. (reason explained on my other post)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I still hold that MoP is fine as is, but the real killer is AP - that skill completely removes its balancing factor.*

AP denies recharge on all skills in game , i can asure you that MoP is not the only skill that gains a "power" level ( without being overpowered ) when its recharge is denied.
Like i said before , if we nerf MoP because is "op" , we would have to nerf at least 20 more skills because of that.

upier · Dec 04, 2009, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Im going to pretend that you are not comparing it to SF.
Is not overpowered at all , i explained why some posts before , soz , not going to repeat myself.

There are about 1XX skills that fit the definition "strong if used well but not overpowered" . MoP is one of them.
Ill tell you my criteria to see if something is overpowered :
- Comparing it with same skills of same style
- If you ALONE or with 1 more person/hero use it in some combo , you beat the crap out of the game.
Gotta match those 2 without a doubt and MoP doesnt. (reason explained on my other post)

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/N_Raptor_Farmer

The problem with SF is that it allows something that shouldn't be possible. And the amount of damage MoP outputs also shouldn't be possible.

Reverend Dr · Dec 04, 2009, 11:57 AM // 11:57

The "overpowered" part of mark of pain comes in part from hundred blades and whirlwind attack having that odd effect and in part the fact that AI is just too stupid to not ball up.

MoP is probably more effective in PvE play than it should be, but it isn't the fault of the skill itself, just like empathy, spiteful spirit, VoR, and anything else AI lends itself weakness too.

Xenomortis · Dec 04, 2009, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

AP denies recharge on all skills in game , i can asure you that MoP is not the only skill that gains a "power" level ( without being overpowered ) when its recharge is denied.
Like i said before , if we nerf MoP because is "op" , we would have to nerf at least 20 more skills because of that.

Erm... yes?
That was my point.