Curse

Desert Rose · Jan 17, 2010, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I honestly don't care at all about PvE, but would something like this actually make the game more attractive?

No, at best it would switch some classes in or out the FotM.
The fact that some classes are nearly useless is mainly a design problem of PvE itself, not a fault in the class design.

Upier explained it quite good:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Every class has things that they do better than everyone else. The problem appears because the things certain classes excel at turn out to be completely worthless in PvE (...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by End

Yes the ridiculous monster level should be reduced to help reduce the dependence on armor ignoring damage. However to make up for it hard mode needs to be made much much harder in another aspect. (...)

Fixed for you.
Monsters don't get an armor boost in HM.

reaper with no name · Jan 19, 2010, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Well, I wouldn't say it would switch any classes out, but rather, help certain professions to close the gap in effectiveness.

The problems go beyond some classes doing things that are useless. Dervishes, for example, are actually worse at enchantment spam than warriors and assassins.

And the reason for the problem doesn't change the fact that it exists. So, we can either change the design of PvE (yeah, right), give up and just pretend like several the game's professions don't exist (if we're gonna do that, why even have them in the first place? Might as well delete them then and give all the players of them a better profession), or tweak those professions for PvE so they can compete with the stronger ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

How could it? Half the professions get no changes. Of those that do most are inconsequential and supposed to be buffs, I guess, except Necro which is an obvious nerf. The problem with Necros in PvE begins and ends with heroes. Rather than further gutting a primary with an even clunkier timer all that needs to be done is set a profession limit on party formation. No more 1+3 or 2+6 setups and it becomes a non-issue.

The SR nerf has nothing to do with heroes; it's simply about the fact that SR is overpowered. Personally, I don't even care that necro heroes are so much better than other heroes.

Forcing people to use suboptimal professions doesn't solve the problem of those professions being weaker than they should be. All it would do is force certain members of a party to be weaker than others for no reason.

Giga_Gaia · Jan 20, 2010, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Mysticism - You gain 1 energy per 3 ranks of Mysticism whenever an enchantment ends on you. Additionally, your attacks steal 1 health per rank of Mysticism. (gives dervishes a much-needed offensive buff to help them compete with warriors and assassins, while giving them a slight defensive boost that they also desperately need)

Discuss/Criticize.

I disagree with Mysticism. Dervishes are fine when it comes to dealing damage - the only reason why they're outdone by wars/rangers/sins is because they lack proper energy management to continue spamming their attacks. Therefore I propose that Mysticism be changed to return energy/health whenever an enchantment is cast AND whenever it ends on you. Of course, to prevent monk abuse, you could limit it to Dervish enchantments only, or put a cap (ala soul reaping) on how many times it can trigger over a certain time frame.

Shriketalon · Jan 20, 2010, 04:25 PM // 16:25

You could also just change Mysticism into an Expertise-style attribute; as you add more ranks, the cost of casting enchantments on you goes down. Not only does that mean the dervish can spam his skills better, but the party monk will love you because he saves energy by buffing the dervish.

Xenomortis · Jan 20, 2010, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

I disagree with Mysticism. Dervishes are fine when it comes to dealing damage - the only reason why they're outdone by wars/rangers/sins is because they lack proper energy management to continue spamming their attacks.

Given Mysticism is basically worthless, just spec into Wind Prayers for Zealous Vow.
ZV outdoes Warrior's Endurance on energy. Using the fast attack skills typical of ZV builds, you don't really need an IAS either.

madriel222 · Jan 20, 2010, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Here's a thought.

If Earth Prayers is in-their-faces offensive tanking, make Wind Prayers into a Point Blank Buffing attribute.

So you might have Attacker's Insight, which reduces the energy cost for your attack skills and all attack skills of adjacent allies. Or Guiding Hands, which makes the next attack for you and all adjacent allies unblockable. Healing, likewise, for whomever is nearby, etc.

Makes the dervish able to serve a support role while still on the frontline, by doing his normal frontline work. His focus would be much more concentrated than a paragon, but still not single targeting, thus giving him sort of an Aura role.

I love this idea! Has that high risk-high reward kind of feel. Sure, the members around you gain a great benefit, but you leave yourselves significantly more vulnerable to AoE by bunching up. A change like this might actually get me on my dervish again =)

reaper with no name · Jan 20, 2010, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

You could also just change Mysticism into an Expertise-style attribute; as you add more ranks, the cost of casting enchantments on you goes down. Not only does that mean the dervish can spam his skills better, but the party monk will love you because he saves energy by buffing the dervish.

Been suggested before, by me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

I disagree with Mysticism. Dervishes are fine when it comes to dealing damage - the only reason why they're outdone by wars/rangers/sins is because they lack proper energy management to continue spamming their attacks. Therefore I propose that Mysticism be changed to return energy/health whenever an enchantment is cast AND whenever it ends on you. Of course, to prevent monk abuse, you could limit it to Dervish enchantments only, or put a cap (ala soul reaping) on how many times it can trigger over a certain time frame.

They're only outdone by rangers until they use zealous vow. However, even with zealous vow they're outdone by wars and sins.

As for last part, it's been suggested before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Given Mysticism is basically worthless, just spec into Wind Prayers for Zealous Vow.
ZV outdoes Warrior's Endurance on energy. Using the fast attack skills typical of ZV builds, you don't really need an IAS either.

Without an IAS, a scythe is completely inferior to MSDB in every way. A scythe build without an IAS makes about as much sense as a necromancer with 0 points in SR. Remember, IASs affect attack skills too. Plus, scythe builds do actually involve auto-attacks, because those attack skills have to recharge.

Energy management is only useful in so much as it allows you to do more things. With zealous vow/WE/crit strikes, energy is not an issue, regardless of which one you bring. So the extra energy from zealous vow just sits there doing nothing. And guess what? Warriors can use it too. And they can afford to take a lot more points out of strength than a dervish can afford to take out of mysticism.

Why do these threads keep degenerating into dervish discussions? Doesn't anyone have any comments on the other parts?

Shriketalon · Jan 20, 2010, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Been suggested before, by me.

Darn it, all the good ideas are always taken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Why do these threads keep degenerating into dervish discussions? Doesn't anyone have any comments on the other parts?

Well, for the most part, dervishes are the one with a troublesome attribute.

Soul Reaping is already absurdly good, Energy Storage works pretty well (although eles need a primary skill that helps with AR penetration), Divine Favor is nice (although it needs work on its skills, too), Expertise is just fine (it's the non-barrage marksmanship skills that stink), Spawning Power is now useful, Leadership does its job, Critical Strikes is fine, the Strength change is minor, and Fast Casting is so pitiful against consumables that it makes puppies cry.

So we either talk about dervishes, or we talk about mesmers, and the What Class Do You Think Needs A Buff thread is currently handling the mesmer discussion.

Reformed · Jan 20, 2010, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Forcing people to use suboptimal professions doesn't solve the problem of those professions being weaker than they should be. All it would do is force certain members of a party to be weaker than others for no reason.

Does someone from NCSoft show up at your house and put a gun to your head when you sign onto GW? This would be a perfectly valid point if when you bought the game it randomly assigned you a profession and you were stuck with it forever.

I'm curious what you are balancing the primaries around in your suggestions. It doesn't make any sense to split them and further complicate things unless the proposals would be game breaking in PvP. If that's the case they shouldn't be done at all since PvP is really the only thing that keeps PvE in check, most of the time anyways (skill splits).

reaper with no name · Jan 21, 2010, 07:44 PM // 19:44

That was in reply to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

How could it? Half the professions get no changes. Of those that do most are inconsequential and supposed to be buffs, I guess, except Necro which is an obvious nerf. The problem with Necros in PvE begins and ends with heroes. Rather than further gutting a primary with an even clunkier timer all that needs to be done is set a profession limit on party formation. No more 1+3 or 2+6 setups and it becomes a non-issue.

Unless I misunderstood what you were saying there, such a change would prevent, say, a necro from joining a party that already had x necros.

Believe it or not, the purpose of the PvE/PvP split is actually to create more balance. Certain skills are inherently more effective in PvP than in PvE (or vice versa). Let's consider a few examples:

The old AoG: Fine in PvE (actually, underpowered), but was very overpowered in PvP.

Anything that inflicts poison: The reason why this is so much less effective in PvE is because A) monsters don't have nearly as many factors reducing the effectiveness of direct damage and B) players in general deal more damage. The second part is the fault of the PvE/PvP skill split, but the first part is due to the differences between the two formats.

Protective Spirit: Essential in PvE, not nearly as much so in PvP.

And of course, SR: Fine in PvP, but in PvE gives insane amounts of energy.

The point I'm making is, a properly implemented PvE/PvP skill split is inherently more balanced than the alternative. Obviously, it hasn't been implemented properly (and has introduced more imbalances than it has fixed), but one way or another, it's here, and it doesn't look to be going away any time soon. So we might as well make use of it to do the one thing it's good for: accounting for imbalances arising from the differences between the two formats.

Orry · Jan 21, 2010, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

That was in reply to this:

And of course, SR: Fine in PvP, but in PvE gives insane amounts of energy.

You know the triple-necro sabway build was based on a HA team build, right?

reaper with no name · Jan 21, 2010, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Actually, no, I never heard about that. Interesting.

MasterSasori · Jan 22, 2010, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Actually, no, I never heard about that. Interesting.

Sab posted the builds on Guru hence it stuck as Sabway.

BTW for armor penetration for eles. HM bosses deal enough damage. Sure you can use PS, but you can't put them on more than 2-3 at a time. And there are times when you can't space your heroes enough to avoid all the aoe.

The nerf for Soul Reaping is a bit too high. I'm all for a nerf, but yours is extreme.

Reverend Dr · Jan 22, 2010, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

No, at best it would switch some classes in or out the FotM.

Considering how poorly PvE players have historically taken any type of 'update' of skills, this sounds like it would only produce smiles and rainbows.

But like Upier said, every class excells at something, some times that thing just isn't valued in pve. Let's look at the mesmer. It is designed mostly for single target disruption. Why would you ever use this in pve? Why disrupt a target when it is just as easy to kill? Why diversion a skill when the target is going to be dead before the skill would have naturally recharged? Why bring e-denial when your damage is going to kill mobs while they still have full energy pools? Well maybe if there is one enemy that is really strong that you have to do something else to deal with? Oh wait Malyx has all of his skills immune to all that, like any good boss he is a gimmick and mesmers (despite the supposed amazingness of shutting down a single target) are still useless.

Those type of things certain classes are good at, PvE is completely based around those not being usable.

Giga_Gaia · Jan 23, 2010, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Been suggested before, by me.

They're only outdone by rangers until they use zealous vow. However, even with zealous vow they're outdone by wars and sins.

As for last part, it's been suggested before.

I wouldn't want to spec into a third attribute AND sacrifice my elite just for some e-management. If anything, this further proves my point that dervs have no good e-management whatsoever. Also as I'm sure everyone already knows, AoHM needs to be tied in to mysticism.

And yeah I'm not surprised if someone has already made the same suggestion as mine for buffing mysticism. Although I do like the idea of turning mysticism into an expertise type.

Quote:

Why do these threads keep degenerating into dervish discussions? Doesn't anyone have any comments on the other parts?

Because while the mesmer is pretty much hopeless, there is lots for the dervish to improve upon without putting in nearly as much work?

reaper with no name · Jan 23, 2010, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Sab posted the builds on Guru hence it stuck as Sabway.

BTW for armor penetration for eles. HM bosses deal enough damage. Sure you can use PS, but you can't put them on more than 2-3 at a time. And there are times when you can't space your heroes enough to avoid all the aoe.

The nerf for Soul Reaping is a bit too high. I'm all for a nerf, but yours is extreme.

That part I did know.

Pain Inverter. There, problem solved.

Well, I'm flexible on the numbers for the SR thing, so I'm all ears.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

Also as I'm sure everyone already knows, AoHM needs to be tied in to mysticism.

That's also been suggested. Not by me directly, but by someone who I apparently gave the idea to, as they quoted me in the OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Those type of things certain classes are good at, PvE is completely based around those not being usable.

And that's exactly why this sort of thing is necessary: to help make these classes more competitive.

Amy Awien · Jan 23, 2010, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

And that's exactly why this sort of thing is necessary: to help make these classes more competitive.

But your proposals would not make these classes more competetive.

reaper with no name · Jan 23, 2010, 08:38 PM // 20:38

If you have some ideas that would help, then I'm all ears.

Reverend Dr · Jan 23, 2010, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If you have some ideas that would help, then I'm all ears.

Make a time machine, as any type of update this big is going to be so greatly disapproved by the general PvE community that it just cannot be added without a net negative effect upon the game.

Without a total overhaul the best this could do is shake up the momentary flavor of the month class. This would cause change that the PvE crowd dislike so much and yet have no positive affect upon the game as it would just artificially pull out some classes and put in others.

reaper with no name · Jan 25, 2010, 08:10 AM // 08:10

To "pull out" some classes would require making the weaker ones stronger than the strong ones. That's not the purpose of this. The idea here is to make the weaker ones as strong as the strong ones (or at least close to it).