Curse

reaper with no name · Jan 14, 2010, 05:19 PM // 17:19

The PvE/PvP split exists because due to the differences between how the two formats are played, certain skills are inherently more powerful in one format or the other. However, the same is true of some of the primary attributes, so let's fix that.

(Note that all of these changes are for PvE; no changes would be made in PvP)

Divine Favor - no change needed.

Strength - For each rank of Strength, you gain 1% armor penetration on attack skills and 1% armor penetration on normal attacks with warrior weapons.

Expertise - no change needed.

Soul Reaping - For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. You may only gain Energy in this way twice per 15 seconds. (we all know why)

Fast Casting - Fast Casting decreases the casting time and aftercast delay of your Spells. Additionally, each rank in this attribute decreases your Signet activation times by 3%. (this would go a long way to making mesmers more viable in PvE; aftercast delays would be reduced using the same formula that determines reduced cast times)

Spawning Power - no change needed

Leadership - no change needed.

Critical Strikes - no change needed.

Mysticism - You gain 1 energy per 3 ranks of Mysticism whenever an enchantment ends on you. Additionally, your attacks steal 1 health per rank of Mysticism. (gives dervishes a much-needed offensive buff to help them compete with warriors and assassins, while giving them a slight defensive boost that they also desperately need)

Energy Storage - For each rank of Energy Storage, your maximum energy increases by 3, and your skills gain 2% armor penetration per rank of Energy Storage. (will go a long way towards making Elementalists more viable as nukers)

Discuss/Criticize.

Cuilan · Jan 14, 2010, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Yes, let's help the ritualist profession solo better.

And what does "energy storage" have to do with armor?

reaper with no name · Jan 14, 2010, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Absolutely nothing. But Elementalists are always complaining that they can't do any damage in HM. And what does the ability to accurately target vital organs have to do with gaining energy? What does the ability to lead effectively have to do with gaining energy?

Call this an attempt at a crowd-pleaser suggestion (however doomed to failure it may be).

Gift3d · Jan 14, 2010, 06:08 PM // 18:08

could fix a lot of things and be a good change. not talking about your suggestions in particular, but the concept is a good idea.

then anet would be able to grow some balls and make expertise only affect ranger skills in pvp.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 14, 2010, 06:17 PM // 18:17

I support the Elementalist changes, because it will help all the idiots who're running elemental damage anyways. It won't make them better players but it will make them more useful party members.

Xenomortis · Jan 14, 2010, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Soul Reaping - For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. You may only gain Energy in this way once per 10 seconds. (we all know why)

This is much more of a nerf than I think you realise.

These changes are just too much. Rits don't need any more buffing right now. Spirit Spam is ridiculous and doesn't need to be made any stronger.
The change to Energy Storage is really crude.

On Mysticism; Dervishes don't suffer that much. Offensively they're in the same league with Warriors, but don't get the utility stuff Warriors do (DSlash, Earthshaker etc). Dervishes still get the biggest damage boost in the game (AoHM) and I would prefer my warriors or sins didn't take a scythe (well, I don't mind W/Ds so much).
Offensively they only really fall behind Assassin's.

I really don't like the recharge clause you've added to FC. Builds with AP will still use AP and builds without won't be significantly improved with the increased spec. All it does is potentially promote the use of the Mes primary in speed clears as nukers.

J I L T · Jan 14, 2010, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Armor penetration for level 30 fasting casting double damage ele bosses? Jesus Christ

Your mysticism buff is overpowered. 1 energy per rank is WAY too much and 1 health stealing is basically a constant order of the vampire so that's too much as well. Plus your comment on dervs needing more defense is inaccurate because they have tons of defensive and healing skills.

Spawning power- instead of armor make it damage reduction in the same way that armor of the unfeeling works so spirits like shelter or agony last longer.

Mesmer skills that take a long time to recharge are like that because they'd be too powerful otherwise. Just because people don't like it doesn't mean it's a good idea to make them recharge faster.

REDdelver · Jan 14, 2010, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

And what does "energy storage" have to do with armor?

Nothing....His thought is to give ele's more dmg....and ele's only. Instead of upping skill dmg across the board allowing chars like fast cast nukers to benefit also.

The concept is interesting.

With respects to the ele and ES armor pentration, it would have to be a nonstacking bonus though. If a skill already has armor pentration, then the ES bonus wouldnt stack.

I think 2% per rank would be way too high. NM would be just rediculous amounts of dmg with 25% armor penetration dmg across the board. (assuming you have 13 in ES and a cap of 25%)

Think if rodgorts does 120 to a 60 armor target? Then it would do over 180+ ?? If my brain is working right atm. I think thats way high.

Soul reaping is fine really. Its taken several hits as is. If you really think it needs messed with maybe minions only give half energy return when dying as compared to foes/party members. Just off the top of my head, not a seriously thought out idea.

Spawing doesnt need a buff. Communing's Armor of unfeeling covers dmg taken by spirits as is.

Still thought the whole split idea might be viable.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 14, 2010, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by J I L T

Armor penetration for level 30 fasting casting double damage ele bosses? Jesus Christ

It's there for a reason.

Chthon · Jan 14, 2010, 07:21 PM // 19:21

While I agree with the notion of splitting primary attributes, you're suggestions are terrible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Soul Reaping - For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. You may only gain Energy in this way once per 10 seconds. (we all know why)

Wait what? Soul Reaping should be reverted to its original function in PvE. Not nerfed further. Were you paying any attention at all when the various nerfs came through the pipeline and the reasons for them?

Also, for that matter, did you even try to play a necro for couple weeks or so it was 1 shot in 5 sec? It was utterly unplayable.

Quote:

Fast Casting - Fast Casting decreases the casting time of your Spells. Additionally, each rank in this attribute decreases your Signet activation times by 3%. Also, the recharge times of your mesmer skills are reduced. (this would go a long way to making mesmers more viable in PvE; recharge times would be reduced using the same formula that determines reduced cast times)

While I agree that FastCast is utter crap in PvE, this isn't going going to make mesmers viable. There's a deep problem with the skillset that a recharge time boost won't fix. (Case in point, AP mesmers have basically zero recharge on all skills, and they still rely almost exclusively on PvE skills since the mesmer lines are so weak.)

Quote:

Spawning Power - For each rank of Spawning Power you have, creatures you create (or animate) will have 4% more Health and +1 armor. Additionally, weapon spells you cast last 4% longer. (it's not much, but many feel that this attribute still isn't worth taking, and I can't think of another way to buff it without overpowering it)

Spawning needs a buff, but not this. Spirits already border on overpowered.

Quote:

Mysticism - You gain 1 energy per rank of Mysticism whenever an enchantment ends on you. Additionally, your attacks steal 1 health per rank of Mysticism. (gives dervishes a much-needed offensive buff to help them compete with warriors and assassins, while giving them a slight defensive boost that they also desperately need)

That's actually not half bad. It makes zero sense from a lore perspective, but it solves a couple of problems with the class.

Quote:

Energy Storage - For each rank of Energy Storage, your maximum energy increases by 3, and your skills gain 2% armor penetration per rank of Energy Storage. (will go a long way towards making Elementalists more viable as nukers)

Hell no. HM ele monsters already do very frightening damage. Now you want to give them 40% armor penetration too? While I agree that eles seriously need some across-the-board armor penetration to not suck in HM, the proper place for that is on one of their PvE skills.

Olle · Jan 14, 2010, 07:23 PM // 19:23

ok, lets say u buff mysticism...
at 16 myst : 16 Lifesteal per hit.. add in Avatar of Grenth=21 Hp per hit
then a vamp wep (3-5 hp per hit) + an IAS
U would Never need to think about ur health again, cuz ull steal to much hp back
so, /Notsigned
they are gg atm.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 14, 2010, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Hell no. HM ele monsters already do very frightening damage. Now you want to give them 40% armor penetration too?

Protective Spirit. Protective Spirit. Protective Spirit.

reaper with no name · Jan 14, 2010, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

This is much more of a nerf than I think you realise.

These changes are just too much. Rits don't need any more buffing right now. Spirit Spam is ridiculous and doesn't need to be made any stronger.
The change to Energy Storage is really crude.

On Mysticism; Dervishes don't suffer that much. Offensively they're in the same league with Warriors, but don't get the utility stuff Warriors do (DSlash, Earthshaker etc). Dervishes still get the biggest damage boost in the game (AoHM) and I would prefer my warriors or sins didn't take a scythe (well, I don't mind W/Ds so much).
Offensively they only really fall behind Assassin's.

I really don't like the recharge clause you've added to FC. Builds with AP will still use AP and builds without won't be significantly improved with the increased spec. All it does is potentially promote the use of the Mes primary in speed clears as nukers.

Necromancers need it. I can't think of a more overpowered class when it comes to versatility. Minions, MoP, Necrosis, SS, and the ability to function fairly effectively using almost any other caster's skills? Most classes don't even get half as much good stuff as that.

In a best case scenario dervishes are about 20 dps behind warriors when it comes to the scythe. More versus assassins. I've posted the math somewhere in the dervish section, but I'm too lazy to go find it. This would almost close the gap with scythe warriors.

Eh, fine, I'll remove the SP thing. Personally, I was only trying to curry favor with the people who want another SP buff with that part.

Quote:

That's actually not half bad. It makes zero sense from a lore perspective, but it solves a couple of problems with the class.

It makes a hell of a lot more sense than critical strikes giving energy each time you stab someone in the kidney. Or leadership giving energy each time a shout ends. With mysticism, you can just say "magic" and be done with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kajusbonus

ok, lets say u buff mysticism...
at 16 myst : 16 Lifesteal per hit.. add in Avatar of Grenth=21 Hp per hit
then a vamp wep (3-5 hp per hit) + an IAS
U would Never need to think about ur health again, cuz ull steal to much hp back
so, /Notsigned
they are gg atm.

You actually think that +16 lifesteal plus AoG would offer enough of a boost to be considered overpowered? What game have you been playing?

Let's say for a moment you've got that and mystic vigor on you in an ideal scenario (bunch of enchantments on you, hitting 3 foes, etc). You'd be getting around 75+60 per swing. So 135 health on a guy who has 90 armor with windwalker's insignias. That's still not nearly as much as a monk can heal you for.

Besides, self-healing is supposed to be one of the class's strengths, but at present it's so weak there's little point in bothering.

Cuilan · Jan 14, 2010, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by J I L T

Mesmer skills that take a long time to recharge are like that because they'd be too powerful otherwise. Just because people don't like it doesn't mean it's a good idea to make them recharge faster.

Did you not see all the buff mesmer threads and posts around this forum? Also, what is this it and do you know why people don't like it?

Zodiac Meteor · Jan 14, 2010, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Protective Spirit. Protective Spirit. Protective Spirit.

That works! For 2 people...

I don't want my monk taking 150% more damage against a afflicted elementalist.

J I L T · Jan 14, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

It's there for a reason.

Aoe damage and lets just assume that every now and then ele bosses aren't alone and they might be with a necro or mesmer with enchantment removal that just might be a possibility Plus ele bosses should be harder for everyone because eles don't want to bring cracked armor and are complaining that it's harder to kill foes in hard mode?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Did you not see all the buff mesmer threads and posts around this forum? Also, what is this it and do you know why people don't like it?

It doesn't matter how big the mob is that doesn't make it right. The "it" I was talking about was long recharges and I don't know what people don't like about it because I use mesmer henchmen and heroes pretty often. Granted I don't play the class but I don't have to play the class to know practically maintaining vor or diversion is ridiculous even pve.

reaper with no name · Jan 14, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

That works! For 2 people...

I don't want my monk taking 150% more damage against a afflicted elementalist.

You mean you'll actually have to practice aggro management or bring someone with SY? And HM might actually be hard?

Great. I guess that proves I'm on to something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J I L T

Aoe damage and lets just assume that every now and then ele bosses aren't alone and they might be with a necro or mesmer with enchantment removal that just might be a possibility Plus ele bosses should be harder for everyone because eles don't want to bring cracked armor and are complaining that it's harder to kill foes in hard mode?

It doesn't matter how big the mob is that doesn't make it right. The "it" I was talking about was long recharges and I don't know what people don't like about it because I use mesmer henchmen and heroes pretty often. Granted I don't play the class but I don't have to play the class to know practically maintaining vor or diversion is ridiculous even pve.

Because mesmers are generally mechanically inferior.

And no, it's not ridiculous. At least not compared to some of the other stuff out there. Even with this, VoR would barely be better than SS (and then only against casters), and diversion still wouldn't be great because it is single target.

Xenomortis · Jan 14, 2010, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Necromancers need it. I can't think of a more overpowered class when it comes to versatility. Minions, MoP, Necrosis, SS, and the ability to function fairly effectively using almost any other caster's skills? Most classes don't even get half as much good stuff as that.

SR is overpowered, yes. However reducing it to your proposal will pretty much kill Minion Masters. SR is pretty much solely balanced around minions.
I do not think you fully appreciate the difference between 3 triggers in 15 seconds and 1 in 5 seconds, or perhaps the difference between 1 in 10 and 2 in 20.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 14, 2010, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by J I L T

Aoe damage and lets just assume that every now and then ele bosses aren't alone and they might be with a necro or mesmer with enchantment removal that just might be a possibility

Cover enchants (remember those?), or spike the necro / mesmer first.

AoE damage? Spread out. This shouldn't even be an issue.

It's like you're actively rejecting the idea of making the game require a bit of thought. There are already bosses like this in the game, such as Lushivahr the Invoker; the bonus armour penetration would simply help turn otherwise unthreatening bosses into ones like this, which is a good thing.

_Nihilist_ · Jan 14, 2010, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Strength: Add the armor penetration to all attacks, not just attack skills. Bonus damage from skills is already armor-ignorning, so really, you'd just be giving armor penetration to the base weapon damage from auto-attacks.