Curse

Ugh · Feb 10, 2010, 01:40 AM // 01:40

If anyone's interested, I did some quick tests with the builds being kept as close as possible.

I did the ranger first and spammed until I ran out of energy. Then, I did the sin and spammed for about the same amount of time. For both, I used Zealous Daggers, used slot 7 on recharge, and used the elite skill (its name escapes me :/ ) as often as possible. I did two trials with each and posted the trial with the highest DPS.

Basically:
The sin has a bit better damage and longer-lasting conditions.
The ranger has more survivalibility and is probably more reliable.

R/As are better, but I wouldn't say they "curbstomp and teabag" sins. And, sins are able to do the things an R/A does for long periods of time.

I still think R/As should be nerfed, but preferably by the nerfing of the sin skills, as a nerf to expertise could just result in R/As being replaced by A/Xs.

Del · Feb 10, 2010, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I am not the one taking text out of context. Read back please, here it may help, if I just put things together

Me: "Removing expertise would make rangers impossible, 3 pips is insufficient ..."

Bobby2, while quoting my statement about removing expertise: "Shattering Assault at 4 energy....... tends to make 3 pips more than sufficient"

Me, referring back to my quoted statement about removing expertise: "It wouldn't be 4 E if expertise didn't apply to it."

You: "Please, please tell me you're not that dense"

Me, thinking it might help if I explain the context: "Did I did not start that quoted section with "Removing expertise would ..."?" Without expertise aplying to it, Shattering Assault would not be 4 E and 3 pips would be insufficient.

lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lol make rangers impossible? what the hell are you on about? we're talking about making expertise only affect ranger attacks, not removing it as a whole, and yes, you still took what i was saying wrong, i was also implying that you're dense for thinking that fixing expertise would make rangers impossible. no honorable player cares is this shitter build gets nerfed. honestly.

Reverend Dr · Feb 10, 2010, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I just don't have that many assassin skills unlocked:

only Ian Boyd is allowed to theorycraft like this

IrishX · Feb 10, 2010, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

only Ian Boyd is allowed to theorycraft like this

All 20 people left who get this chuckled.

Amy Awien · Feb 10, 2010, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

If anyone's interested, I did some quick tests with the builds being kept as close as possible.

Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lol make rangers impossible? what the hell are you on about?

If you actually read the posts you quote or reply to you wouldn't be making such dumb remarks.

Quote:

i was also implying that you're dense for thinking that fixing expertise would make rangers impossible

Liar, you replied to something else:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It wouldn't be 4 E if expertise didn't apply to it. You only read a couple of random of words from the post you quoted?

Please, please tell me you're not that dense.

Btw, I commented on both possibilities, you combined parts of both comments, and then you have the nerve to talk about taking things out of context. You're just filth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

only Ian Boyd is allowed to theorycraft like this

Thank you for showing what kind of coward you are

At least I go out and actually try some things out, with whatever is available. You're probably still trying to figure out how to make a new character.

LazyLink · Feb 10, 2010, 08:54 AM // 08:54

No, rangers should not be limited to bows. Rangers sacrifice damage for energy management.

Tenebrae · Feb 10, 2010, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I concur. However, this suggestion is to stop ranger melee builds from spaming skills on recharge without any punishment, not to destroy the ranger's primary attribute. Please read the thread.

Read the thread please , i was here even before you lol.

Punishment is energy and MAIN RANGERS att is some sort of e-management so yes , it DESTROYS rangers att when using melee attack skills.
They spend a bloody whole lot of points just for that , endurance and being capable of spam skills while others cant , thats the whole point of expertise so nerfing one of its few ways it work ( yes , because doesnt work on spells nor other class stances ) its simply destroys it but not entirely.
If you destroy Expertise to work on melee attacks you destroy R/A , R/W and R/D just because some QQ.

Yes , i said QQ , because R/A are not unstoppable . They are not a blood spike before nerf that was just spam spam spam and theres nothing you can do . Rangers can be hexed as hell , snared , crippled , blinded ..... the ONLY thing they cant be is blocked ( with THAT build ).

So just for 1 build ( or a very few ) nerf a whole att in any way is stupid , just as stupid as removing KD from the game because Magehunters W are very powerful. No, just no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LazyLink

No, rangers should not be limited to bows. Rangers sacrifice damage for energy management.

And we got a winner.

Morphy · Feb 10, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

You're right and to be honest, they weren't completely random, I picked them for their short recharge time so that there would be a skill in the chain available at any time, I just don't have that many assassin skills unlocked:

Jagged Strike & Golden Lotus Strike as Lead Attacks (GLS returns E)
Fox Fangs as off-hand
Death Blossom as dual attack

Way of the Assassin
Critical Eye

Conjure Lightning

I'm sure it's a poor build that can be improved, but I was pressed for time and wouldn't have made it had I jumped around to buy the skills for one of the PvX RA builds. A constantly full E-bar implies there's too much E-management which probably compromised damage and utility. When I have time I'll try out one of the A/x's from PvX.

Ah yes. To fuel a build with this kind of energy management and DPS you have:

1. Sacrificed Shattering Assault, an important piece of the build that gives you the opportunity to deal with Guardian and the likes
2. Added a Conjure to your build, which can be stripped easily and really forces you to run a Shocking weapon.

You sacrifice utility and survivability to gain Energy - which isn't a problem on Rangers anyway - and DPS, which you won't get through as much as your Attack Skills are much easier to stop (your duals are blockable).

A bit hard to compare but the survivability of the R/A build is worth a lot. Please only use skills that are irremovible, it will make the comparation more fair.

Desert Rose · Feb 10, 2010, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Basically:
The sin has a bit better damage and longer-lasting conditions.
The ranger has more survivalibility and is probably more reliable.

R/As are better, but I wouldn't say they "curbstomp and teabag" sins. And, sins are able to do the things an R/A does for long periods of time.

I still think R/As should be nerfed, but preferably by the nerfing of the sin skills, as a nerf to expertise could just result in R/As being replaced by A/Xs.

You overlooked one thing while concluding: The master of damage is a stationary target that never blocks or hinders your attacks in any other way.
Try the two builds against the two monks again (maybe you have to decrease dagger mastery to not kill them instantly) and see how long your energy lasts then.

Bobby2 · Feb 10, 2010, 05:29 PM // 17:29

The fact that this discussion is still going makes me laugh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Shattering Assault at 4 energy....... tends to make 3 pips more than sufficient.

Amy, this wasn't exactly a reply to your statement. The astute reader might have realized I stated this to imply that Rangers are currently more suited to handling expensive skills like these than Assassins. Though granted, I admit it was a bit vague.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Fine, lets go empirical
Well, I made a little test myself, with this R/A and some random assassin build, using the haphzard collection of assasin skill I have available atm - and without PvE skills . The Sin build never ran out of energy (kept a full bar actually) and easily managed around 100 dps. The ranger did run out of energy (I admittedly did not have zealous daggers) after a while and managed like 50-60dps

I don't see R/A outclassing A/x yet, I have the empirical evidence to show you're mistaken.

To call comparing a standard SA Ranger bar to whatever Sin build you conjured up empirical evidence doesn't do much for your credibility, as people have pointed out. I'm not going to BHA Conjure Beastmaster you on this but at least you could make an effort to keep the builds as close to each other as possible.

Being:

Crit @ 12+1
Dags @ 12+1+1

Leaping Mantis
Exhausting
Jagged
Fox
SA
Dash
Res
LR..... the only comparable skill the Sin has available is Critical Defenses.

To make a long story short: no, it can't keep up with the Ranger energy-wise.

Amy Awien · Feb 10, 2010, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Amy, this wasn't exactly a reply to your statement. ...

Ok.

Quote:

... empirical evidence doesn't do much for your credibility ...

I used the wording from Morphy, curious why you only respond like this with me.

Empirical evidence to measure the quality of a build in real game circumstance can not be provided by us with individual 'tests', you'd have to observe many, many matches.

Quote:

... but at least you could make an effort to keep the builds as close to each other as possible. ...

Well, no. If you want to compare R/A and A/x then you should not gimp the latter - or your comparision will fail by design.

Quote:

To make a long story short: no, it can't keep up with the Ranger energy-wise.

The tests from Ugh showed the SA assassin could keep up. Granted, Master of Damage is not a match, but - except for theoretical arguments - there is no validation or test available for the view that R/A SA > A/x

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Ah yes. To fuel a build with this kind of energy management and DPS you have

I've already stated that the build was rather adhoc and that e-management was overdone, but the point is that other builds have other uses and primary sins have more options for dagger builds, Shattering Assault is not the holy grail of daggers and rangers, though strong on this dagger build, do not outclass primary assassins.

Quote:

Please only use skills that are irremovible, it will make the comparation more fair

Lightning Reflexes can also be removed. Yes, enchantments and stances can be removed, but that is not a good reason to ignore them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

if you were any good at playing ranger you wouldn't be daft enough to say rangers are impossible just because only bow attacks would be affected by expertise.

I never said that, but obviously the wording of what I did say was too complex for you to comprehend.

And since you will never be able to understand normal english I see no reason to continue trying to communicate with you. Goodbye troll.

Desert Rose · Feb 10, 2010, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Well, no. If you want to compare R/A and A/x then you should not gimp the latter - or your comparision will fail by design.

Yes, you don't have to copy the R/A build one-on-one, but the A/X should be at least able to do what the R/A can; I've already stated that on page 3.
As a sidenote: Your sin build is also a weaker version of another recently nerfed R/A build. If you replace Escape with Expert's Dexterity it's properly still more powerful than your sin build.

Quote:

Empirical evidence to measure the quality of a build in real game circumstance can not be provided by us with individual 'tests', you'd have to observe many, many matches.

Do you really thing that the guys and gals that use(d) melee rangers never tried out sins/dervishes instead of rangers?

Bobby2 · Feb 10, 2010, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

To make a long story short: no, it can't keep up with the Ranger energy-wise.

The tests from Ugh showed the SA assassin could keep up. Granted, Master of Damage is not a match, but - except for theoretical arguments - there is no validation or test available for the view that R/A SA > A/x

In a world without Blind and anti-melee hexes, you'd be correct. The Ranger and Assassin would be about equal in maintaining energy.

As it stands the Assassin's and Ranger's respective means of energy management relate very differently to what's going on around them. A 5 energy attack, say Jagged Strike, that misses due to whatever reason is just a 2 energy loos for the Ranger. A Sin that suffers the same is down 5, with only 1 extra pip of regen to make up for it.

So yeah, I'd say Rangers are just plain better at dagger pressure - and that's not even taking higher AL and access to block stances into account.

Kattar · Feb 11, 2010, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Just a note: if you can't have a discussion without it turning into arguments full of personal attacks, then you won't be allowed to have any discussion at all.

Keep it clean and civil.

drkn · Feb 11, 2010, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

I still think R/As should be nerfed, but preferably by the nerfing of the sin skills, as a nerf to expertise could just result in R/As being replaced by A/Xs

Quote:

Profession: R/

and let you still exploit expertise with spirits, /d, /w, or /n toucher?
expertise is overpowered, same as soul reaping, when compared to other primairy attribute bonuses and both should be toned down.

Sharkinu · Feb 11, 2010, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

expertise is overpowered

Rangers are the only profession with 3 pips of energy regeneration. Yes, paras and warriors have 2 pips, but they have adrenaline skills so they dont need energy.

And making expertise only affect rangers skills is a bad idea already explained by others in this topic.

drkn · Feb 11, 2010, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

expertise is overpowered [...] when compared to other primairy attribute bonuses

please read the whole post.
as i don't expect buffing fc/df/sp/... to the sr/exp level, i'd rather see sr and exp toned down.

Ugh · Feb 11, 2010, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

and let you still exploit expertise with spirits, /d, /w, or /n toucher?
expertise is overpowered, same as soul reaping, when compared to other primairy attribute bonuses and both should be toned down.

Rangers using spirits, R/Ws, and touchers aren't even used in PvP.

Bunny thumpers used to be used, but I haven't seen one in quite a while (and they weren't OP or as brainless as R/As, anyways). And Touchers used to be OP (in places like RA) before everyone stopped being stupid.

Rangers with spirits (aren't even relevant to this thread, which is about melee skills, and) are only used in PvE for some light farming. They don't even come close to outclassing Rits and neither do Mo/Rts, N/Rts, Me/Rts, E/Rts, or any other profession that can also use spirits (which is pretty much every one but warrior and para).

As for R/Ds, they're not much of a problem either. And the fact that dervs are losing their job to a ranger is probably showing more of a problem with the dervish class being underpowered than the ranger class being overpowered.

Quote:

as i don't expect buffing fc/df/sp/... to the sr/exp level, i'd rather see sr and exp toned down.

Rangers are completely reliant on expertise. Pretty much every ranger build has to have 13-14 expertise or it doesn't work. If it was toned down to 3%, rangers would leave the meta until it was reverted.

I don't have a necro, so I'm not sure how a SR nerf would affect them. But it would probably be bad, too.

Quote:

You overlooked one thing while concluding: The master of damage is a stationary target that never blocks or hinders your attacks in any other way.
Try the two builds against the two monks again (maybe you have to decrease dagger mastery to not kill them instantly) and see how long your energy lasts then.

Good point. I don't really feel like testing again, though.

But, it only takes 1-2 criticals before a sin can chain again and I usually switch targets when my current one starts blocking. So A/Xs still might not be as bad as they may seem.

Either way, R/As are better and should be nerfed.

drkn · Feb 11, 2010, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

They don't even come close to outclassing Rits and neither do Mo/Rts, N/Rts, Me/Rts, E/Rts

just two cents regarding this one: they do outclass me/rts, a lot. been there, seen that.

Amy Awien · Feb 11, 2010, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Do you really thing that the guys and gals that use(d) melee rangers never tried out sins/dervishes instead of rangers?

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, we don't know what 'they' tried and speculations about them are hardly evidence for one view or the other. As far as trying out builds, there are more A/x builds for PvP then there are R/A builds listed as great, which tells me A/x are (a) at least as good as R/A and/or (b) A/x offers more diversity.

Quote:

As a sidenote: Your sin build is ...

It's nothing like that one, not that it matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

In a world without Blind and anti-melee hexes, you'd be correct. The Ranger and Assassin would be about equal in maintaining energy. ....

I believe without anti-melee the Assassin has more and better options, though I agree that blind and hexes hurt the assassin more. Trying to put compare them objectively is a lost cause, so we're left with what we each believe to have more effect.