Curse

Ugh · Feb 06, 2010, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Another nerf to rangers would result in me going rabid and terrorizing the townsfolk.

While I'm all for the destruction of shitty R/As and such, this issue could be better resolved by:

-Buffing dervs so they aren't useless
-Nerfing the sin skills used by R/As
-Buffing rangers so they aren't forced to rely on either Cripshot or secondary bullshit builds

Morphy · Feb 06, 2010, 02:50 PM // 14:50

I don't know where this "lol you got pwnd by a melee ranger tgrhhhddd" bullshit comes from. It's probably just badly executed trolling because you have nothing useful to say and while I would normally not react to such childish attempts, I'll bite.

I'm a main Ranger. I usually play a Crippling Shot bar with Blackout to shut out Monks. Crippling Shot makes melee rangers move slower and since I have Natural Stride they won't even get near me. For that reason, they are the ones getting completely raped, not me.

Now that that bullshit is out of the way, let's get to the main issue. I'll explain why R/As and R/Ds are so bad for balance.

Let's take a look at the Shattering Assault bar. It contains Jagged Strike and Fox Fangs, which are meant to be spammed like no tomorrow, on recharge. Not very hard considering that Jagged Strike recharges in 1 and Fox Fangs in 3 seconds. I think we can all agree that takes no skill whatsoever. A terrible player will be pretty damn effective, almost as effective as a pro frontliner.

Now let's observe a standard Shock Axe build. Things get a lot more complex now. Shock needs to be used carefully to avoid losing too much energy to exhaustion, you have to make sure you don't get too much damage while Frenzy is on but you also have to take risks because you need it to pump out pressure. Then there's your attack skills. You only have one shot at using them properly, then you have to recharge them again. This build takes much skill to play properly and a decent player will perform no more than decent.

You see the problem here? Gimmick builds such as the Shattering Assault Ranger give an unfair advantage against decent players while not having any worth on top levels. No matter how strong or weak you make it, it will either give an unfair advantage against players with your or more amount of skill or it will be completely unusable on every level of play (such as, like, a sword Ranger or something).

This nerf will only affect the worst of these gimmicks. It doesn't even hurt Thumpers and Spearchuckers which can be seen as slightly less bad. The only people that could possibly have any complaints about this nerf are those that like the R/A build which would be a person that needs it to farm Fame in HA or something. Now, why would I have to consider that kind of people again?

Xenex Xclame · Feb 06, 2010, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

This nerf will only affect the worst of these gimmicks.

No , it will affect the ranger trying to play anything but bows.It will affect gimmicks and anything else that isnt the ranger playing a caster class.Then the only other thing a ranger can play is touch ranger, well woohoo thats really fun.

It individual skills that make primary rangers broken when using other weapons, dont kill the ranger just because one or two skills are inbalanced.

As you see there is no problem with a ranger playing a war or para, why? because there aren't inbalanced skills for them to abuse there.

Morphy · Feb 06, 2010, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

No , it will affect the ranger trying to play anything but bows.It will affect gimmicks and anything else that isnt the ranger playing a caster class.Then the only other thing a ranger can play is touch ranger, well woohoo thats really fun.

It individual skills that make primary rangers broken when using other weapons, dont kill the ranger just because one or two skills are inbalanced.

As you see there is no problem with a ranger playing a war or para, why? because there aren't inbalanced skills for them to abuse there.

Wrong. This wouldn't affect Thumpers (for who only Crushing Blow would be negatively affected. 2 more energy, onoez), for example. The only thing this would truly affect are builds that run like 5 attack skills that have an energy cost linked to them (bad build) or a build with a few or so energy attack skills being spammed on recharge (even worse).

I do have a problem with Rangers taking a weapon from another class and abusing Expertise, which is why I suggested this in the first place. I don't know where you got that from. It's true that you need abusable skills to abuse them but I really don't see why we would want to keep the option open. Making balance more complex for no reason doesn't seem logical to me.

Please explain to me, how would this kill Rangers, like, at all? Rangers have never been (viably) used outside of Bow Rangers, Spear Rangers and Thumpers before R/As to begin with and since this change would barely affect those builds (it wouldn't affect Bow Rangers at all), nothing will change. Rangers will still be exactly as good as they were before this nerf.

Last thing, gimmicks aren't "fun". They're incredibly boring to play as you're doing the same thing over and over and over again. Of course, the playstyle isn't why you use these builds, is it? They are easy to play builds that work well even if you have a complete lack of skill and it will make you win without much effort. That's such a bad attitude. I think playing just because you want to win is called bad sportsmanship, I could be mistaken.

Skyy High · Feb 06, 2010, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Should another class be better at using skills than the primary? (if so then why have the other class as a primary and have it only as a secondary option?)

In some cases, yes. That's the beauty of the dual-class system. Have you ever seen a primary monk use Mending Touch? No, because it's basically useless for them, and yet it's basically a staple skill for rangers and most X/Mo physical classes. As long as an X/Y is not superior to most (or all) Y/* builds, there is no problem, and this is the case with rangers and expertise; I can't think of a single profession that a ranger "invalidates" by doing everything they can do, but better.

As other posters have mentioned, if you want an example of a profession that has been invalidated by other professions abusing their secondaries, look no further than the dervish. Literally the only thing they can do better than other professions are the Avatars (cute, but not really all that powerful) and orders spamming. Rangers can play some energy-intensive builds better than some classes, but they're not so powerful that they've made the other classes useless.

Quote:

Last thing, gimmicks aren't "fun".

Says you. When I play a ranger in PvP, 95% of the time I'm running the standard apply-dshot-mtouch-nat stride bar with interchanging elites. That other 5% of the time, I like to do weird things, like run a thumper or spear chucker (mainly so I have an excuse to use my giant-ass bird, but whatever). I've even tried toucher and daggers; not my personal cup of tea, but the point is that there are people out there who enjoy playing something outside the norm. For them, you're stomping on their fun, and for what? Escape got nerfed a while ago, and LR just got hit too. Dagger rangers are not the "omgwtfbbqNERF" build that they used to be; they're fragile, and now they don't have a near-constant blocking stance to save themselves from your warrior tearing them a new arsehole. You may as well complain about touchers; does anyone still care about that build? No, because we got used to it, and it's just not powerful enough to be worth worrying about.

Xenex Xclame · Feb 06, 2010, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Wrong. This wouldn't affect Thumpers (for who only Crushing Blow would be negatively affected. 2 more energy, onoez), for example. The only thing this would truly affect are builds that run like 5 attack skills that have an energy cost linked to them (bad build) or a build with a few or so energy attack skills being spammed on recharge (even worse).

Why is having 5 attack skills with a energy cost bad?For the most part that is all of the assissins builds.Mindless build does not mean the same as overpowered build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

I do have a problem with Rangers taking a weapon from another class and abusing Expertise, which is why I suggested this in the first place. I don't know where you got that from. It's true that you need abusable skills to abuse them but I really don't see why we would want to keep the option open. Making balance more complex for no reason doesn't seem logical to me.

They are not abusing Expertise, Expertise is always the same, its the skills that Anet changes which are being abused.Change the skills that are being abused and rangers will stop using them and go to something less effective.You leave the option open because the option is not the problem, its the inbalanced skills, you use a scapel to take out a bullet not a chainsaw.You are suggesting they nerf expertise for the simple reason that you dont like the ranger to use another weapon, not because its broken.Im suggesting they fix the actual problem instead of make things worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Please explain to me, how would this kill Rangers, like, at all? Rangers have never been (viably) used outside of Bow Rangers, Spear Rangers and Thumpers before R/As to begin with and since this change would barely affect those builds (it wouldn't affect Bow Rangers at all), nothing will change. Rangers will still be exactly as good as they were before this nerf.

Except they will not be able to play sin or derv, our differences are that you have no problem removing the sin and derv option from the ranger class, where as I would rather they make those options less effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Last thing, gimmicks aren't "fun". They're incredibly boring to play as you're doing the same thing over and over and over again. Of course, the playstyle isn't why you use these builds, is it? They are easy to play builds that work well even if you have a complete lack of skill and it will make you win without much effort. That's such a bad attitude. I think playing just because you want to win is called bad sportsmanship, I could be mistaken.

I didnt say gimmicks were fun, i thought the "woohoo" was a give away that i was being sarcastic.Even so it does not matter what me or you think, just because YOU see those build as boring and unfun does not mean everyone shares your view.They are indeed very easy builds, the builds will still lose against better people, just because you can not beat them does not mean everyone else also cant.I am pretty sure that playing just to win is called, playing to win.....It is not the persons fault that Anet allows rocket powered shoes to be used.

Reverend Dr · Feb 06, 2010, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Have you ever seen a primary monk use Mending Touch?

Mending touch is a posterchild for powercreep. That skill more than any other changed the face of split builds. Cripshot was so powerful back in the day because it applied two conditions at once, only purge conditions gave you a chance to get away once hit with a cripshot. Mending touch lets splits have much more hardiness and allows for many more mistakes to go unpunished. It was also a contributing factor in the movement away from the cripple condition to water snares as the primary snare of choice.

If this is what having a secondary better than a primary means, then all the more support for it never happening.

The Drunkard · Feb 06, 2010, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Let's take a look at the Shattering Assault bar. It contains Jagged Strike and Fox Fangs, which are meant to be spammed like no tomorrow, on recharge. Not very hard considering that Jagged Strike recharges in 1 and Fox Fangs in 3 seconds. I think we can all agree that takes no skill whatsoever. A terrible player will be pretty damn effective, almost as effective as a pro frontliner.

If that's the case, then why are there fewer a/x primarys than R/A. I haven't seen anywhere in this thread how R/A's have more survivability than a/x because of the stances they have access to. Before the big dagger buff, a R/A was almost a joke because of the poor dps it provided with it's high survivability, kinda like touch rangers. Now that simple dagger chains deal a lot more dps, R/As have became a much bigger problem. If the dagger chains were nerfed, I'd bet you would see a lot less r/as.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

This isn't the ideal solution. The ideal solution would be to make sure skills on Assassins and Dervishes would actually be affected by their primary, much like Savage Shot and Apply Poison are for Rangers. Unfortunately enough, the new fast activation attack skills aren't affected by Critical Strikes and Rangers will therefore not lose out on anything if they use it as a secondairy profession.

Then why not suggest this instead of the idea posted? Anet's "easy" solutions (usran blessing, spirit nerf in pvp, palm strike) have always been terrible for the game.

Tenebrae · Feb 06, 2010, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Oh yeah, it wasnt "you" the one raging against R/A , its a "friend" , sure. Now , its a "i dont like X , nerf an ENTIRE MAIN att line to please me".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

Sins/Wars/Dervs still do Sin/War/Derv stuff better then ranger, the basis for this nerf suggestion is flawed, so you should not give it more time.

And thats how you spell TRUTH. Proofs or nothing . A Ranger is NOT better than a Sin with daggers so your "reasons" end here. A R/A can abuse some build with some effectiveness .... and so ? are you going to QQ about touchers now we are talking about nerfing Expertise ? cmon ......

The Drunkard · Feb 06, 2010, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

And thats how you spell TRUTH. Proofs or nothing . A Ranger is NOT better than a Sin with daggers so your "reasons" end here

Sorry, I beg to differ. The only sin build that I used that matches the R/A's constant high dps is with onslaught in RA. Yes, the sin can spike much better/faster than a ranger, but in terms of pure dps and survivability rangers do it better.

Amy Awien · Feb 07, 2010, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Sorry, I beg to differ. The only sin build that I used that matches the R/A's constant high dps is with onslaught in RA.

Primary sins (can) have better energy management then rangers - or should have - so I don't really see how expertise plays a role.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

... It's probably just badly executed trolling because you have nothing useful to say and while I would normally not react to such childish attempts, I'll bite. ...

Mirror, mirror ...

The one who's been childish all along has been you. Let go of the trolling and BS and maybe I'll listen to what else you might have to say and discuss with you.

Lusciious · Feb 07, 2010, 01:58 PM // 13:58

It's not like as if a r/a can out perform an assassin or a bunny thumper out perform a magebane smash warr . It's for versatility . If you get bored of bows or because you lag and you can't interrupt, you don't have to make a new char . l2 apprciate versatility . That's where fun is . Not using an insanely OPed meta because you get to win . Go learn how to play , who to avoid , who are your targets etc . Makes pvp more fun then just "hi! Good to see you . Sadly youre not gonna be alive for long ." if you don't like the challenge, I'd suggest you quit gw . Sooner or later you'd quit because everything is so easy . Might as well quit now don't you think ?

/not signed

now go and learn to counter them instead of whining on GWG

Desert Rose · Feb 07, 2010, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Primary sins (can) have better energy management then rangers - or should have - so I don't really see how expertise plays a role.

Try to play the R/A-build as a sin and see for yourself.

Morphy · Feb 07, 2010, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

Why is having 5 attack skills with a energy cost bad?For the most part that is all of the assissins builds.Mindless build does not mean the same as overpowered build.

They are not abusing Expertise, Expertise is always the same, its the skills that Anet changes which are being abused.Change the skills that are being abused and rangers will stop using them and go to something less effective.You leave the option open because the option is not the problem, its the inbalanced skills, you use a scapel to take out a bullet not a chainsaw.You are suggesting they nerf expertise for the simple reason that you dont like the ranger to use another weapon, not because its broken.Im suggesting they fix the actual problem instead of make things worse.

Except they will not be able to play sin or derv, our differences are that you have no problem removing the sin and derv option from the ranger class, where as I would rather they make those options less effective.

I didnt say gimmicks were fun, i thought the "woohoo" was a give away that i was being sarcastic.Even so it does not matter what me or you think, just because YOU see those build as boring and unfun does not mean everyone shares your view.They are indeed very easy builds, the builds will still lose against better people, just because you can not beat them does not mean everyone else also cant.I am pretty sure that playing just to win is called, playing to win.....It is not the persons fault that Anet allows rocket powered shoes to be used.

/sigh

Mindless builds are the same as broken builds because all mindless builds are broken. I have already explained this to you before: Mindless builds, if they have any effectiveness at all, will give an unfair advantage to terrible players over decent players or even good players playing a proper build (that curbstomps the gimmick on high levels of play), depending on exactly how powerful the build is. That's called an "imbalance". I don't know if you're fine with that but if you are you probably missed the entire point of Guild Wars, being skill over skills.

You say Ranger builds using different weapons are not always broken. I challenge you. Give me one Ranger build that uses another weapon that isn't mindless and that would be affected by this change. Just one. I'd like to see you try. If you can't, can you please be so kind to remove yourself from this topic?

Oh and stop the "lol u cant bet m nub" crap. I've already explained why this is false. Cripshot >>>>>> gimmicky melee Rangers.

upier · Feb 07, 2010, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Cripshot >>>>>> gimmicky melee Rangers.

And it's exactly Cripshot that shows oh-so-well why Expertise as a whole needs to be trashed.

Amy Awien · Feb 07, 2010, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Try to play the R/A-build as a sin and see for yourself.

It's not very smart for a primary assassin to play that build while they have access to Critical Strikes and the associated skills. Thought it might explain where you got that idea from.

Desert Rose · Feb 07, 2010, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It's not very smart for a primary assassin to play that build while they have access to Critical Strikes and the associated skills.

/doh
Okay, let me reword it in a way even you can unterstand it: Try to spam Jagged Strike, Fox Fangs and Shattering Assault as a sin without running in energy problems. If you have accomplished that try to add the same amount of utility (snare and interrupt) as a R/A. Now, try to have the same survivability as a R/A.

Orry · Feb 07, 2010, 06:20 PM // 18:20

For Shattering Assault Ranger's you don't need to nerf Expertise, just make Shattering Assault unblockable and remove enchantments only if your critical strikes is 3 or greater, it's the skill's effect that is the problem, not expertise that makes it more effective on Rangers.

Del · Feb 07, 2010, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

For Shattering Assault Ranger's you don't need to nerf Expertise, just make Shattering Assault unblockable and remove enchantments only if your critical strikes is 3 or greater, it's the skill's effect that is the problem, not expertise that makes it more effective on Rangers.

there is also the fact that rangers don't have to stop spamming skills because energy is't a problem, and they can constantly put out pressure with little to no drawback.

Amy Awien · Feb 07, 2010, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

/doh
Okay, let me reword it in a way even you can unterstand it:

Last time I checked Critical Strikes returned energy on a critical hit. With proper attributes you get about .95 attacks per second, 1/3 of which would be crits, each returning 3 e .... nets you about 1 e per second or 3 pips, for a grand total of 7 pips - without any additional skills. Add in Critical eye and you get 1/2 crits/sec for 4E each, or 2E/sec for a grand total of 10 pips. Compare this to the Ranger's 3 pips - which nets to about ... 7 when taking expertise into account.

Maybe the assasin's primary attribute isn't so bad afterall when compared to that of other professions.