Curse

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 04, 2010, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Rangers are hardly the issue. Ranger builds with a scythe, for instance, doesn't make Dervishes worthless. Expertise is good, but nearly as profession breaking as other primaries...

For instance, Warrior's WE Scythe builds and Assassin's Crit Scythe builds in relation to dervishes. THEY make choosing a dervish primary very unappealing, because they do more damage then dervishes can do. Expertise and Rangers does not make them do more damage with melee weapons than their primary counterparts.. they just provide better energy management. It's been that way since the beginning, correct me if I'm wrong. Ranger Primaries sacrifice potency that primary professions (ussually) bring, for energy management. Expertise is fine the way it is, and it's other things you should be concerned with.

While I do agree with Reaper, it's a bit deeper then that. Sure, a secondary shouldn't completely outclass a job that is obviously a primary profession, but there are a lot of other factors at hand...

for instance, N/Mo and N/Rt healers. Like melee rangers, they sacrifice potency for energy management. Whether Soul Reaping itself is Imba is another story, but these synergies to not make people go "why play a monk when Necros do it all better?

another example, Orders Dervishes. They OBVIOUSLY do a better job keeping orders up than necros, but no one really complains that much. Why? for various reasons, really. Orders is a pretty small area compared to the rest of the necro arsenal, and they still do orders ok by themselves.

E/Mo prot spammers is more of an example of a synergy that is not ok, because I look at the prot like and go "Why play a monk when I can do it better on an ele?". They heal better with Infuse, and prot better then nearly any monk build out there, to the point where the only real monk build that outclasses it persay is the Mo/A Assassin's Promise SoL/PS/Aegis spammer

I hope I got my point across :P Point is, there's a lot of things at play, not just synergies themselves.

Lord Dagon · Feb 04, 2010, 09:48 PM // 21:48

/not signed.

dont really see the point in nerfing the crap out of rangers... they've taken a beating as it is.

DigitalFear · Feb 04, 2010, 09:53 PM // 21:53

/signed as long as bow attacks remain untouched.

jazilla · Feb 04, 2010, 10:13 PM // 22:13

/unsigned for many of the reasons stated above.
Side note: can we get a moratorium on all of this red engine gored stuff? it's so old hat.

I Jonas I · Feb 04, 2010, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Will you also make the energy gained from E Storage and Soul Reaping apply only to elementalist and necromancer spells, respectively, have Fast Casting only impact Mesmer abilities, remove the boost to bone minions from Soul Reaping, make Critical Strikes only impact daggers, stop Leadership from drawing on warrior shouts, and make Dervish enchantments the only ones that impact Mysticism?

Primary attributes having an impact outside the prof's skills is nothing new.

that sounds great, actually

Xsiriss · Feb 04, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Rangers recieve dart board buffs and then get hit horribly,did you read the last patch notes? Leave them alone.

Oh and one of the major upsides of GW is the ability to use a secondary profession with the benefits of the primary...

The Drunkard · Feb 04, 2010, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Issue: Builds abusing this to fuel melee style builds.
Fix: Remove attack skills from the list.

Not hard. PvE/P split to keep PvE-ers from whining.

Or we could revert all of the stupid buffs to dagger skills that made ranger meele builds op in the first place.

/notsigned.

**Marty Silverblade** · Feb 05, 2010, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Note: The following is from a PvE point of view, and assumes there will be a PvE/PvP split for Expertise.

Given that Rangers don't really have a large amount of good builds (at least not any that stand up to those of other professions), a nerf would be unfair. Tbh, with PvE in it's current state, I would be fine with lesser played professions (Mesmer, Ranger, Paragon) getting some slightly overpowered stuff to perhaps bring them into use in high end teams.

Nachtkult · Feb 05, 2010, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

When you're doing something better than the profession which is supposed to be doing it, yes, it's an issue.

Nerfing it isn't a solution. Dervishes do need a buff, you're not going to make them any better just because you destroyed the R/D. /not signed

And if you REALLY have to nerf expertise, then nerf warriors, ritualists and sins as well. All these are better scythe users.

Reverend Dr · Feb 05, 2010, 04:45 AM // 04:45

- Expertise is the most efficient energy management in the game (possible exception of soul reaping, but only in the context of PvE.)

- Any spammable skill (a skill that derives its power primarily from frequency of use) that is affected by expertise is going to be more powerful by a ranger primary than by its natural primary.

- Should another class be better at using skills than the primary? (if so then why have the other class as a primary and have it only as a secondary option?)

- Issue is as old as the first thumpers.

Shayne Hawke · Feb 05, 2010, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

PvE/P split to keep PvE-ers from whining.

If there is one thing in GW that I will absolutely never ever ever ever stand for, it would be splitting attributes between PvP and PvE.

Morphy · Feb 05, 2010, 01:36 PM // 13:36

For all of you people who think it will affect Ranger attack skills: I'm glad to inform you that Expertise clearly states it affects all Ranger skills and will thus also apply to Ranger Attack Skills.

To everyone who thinks it's a bad idea to PvE/P split attributes: You have a point, the only reason I added that was to make sure no PvE-er would go all butthurt because his gimmick gets nerfed and hopefully filter those people out. Unfortunate enough, there's always people like Tenebrae.

This isn't the ideal solution. The ideal solution would be to make sure skills on Assassins and Dervishes would actually be affected by their primary, much like Savage Shot and Apply Poison are for Rangers. Unfortunately enough, the new fast activation attack skills aren't affected by Critical Strikes and Rangers will therefore not lose out on anything if they use it as a secondairy profession.

This is however an easy solution that will fix all problems with gimmicky Dagger/Scythe Rangers or future similar gimmicks. As there aren't any well balanced builds that would be affected by this change I really see no reason not to implement this except for keeping idiots who are completely inept at this game from QQing about it.

Oh, I should add, Ritualist heals not being affected by Spawning Power are obviously also an issue. Water Magic barely being affected by Energy Storage is also an issue. These kind of things make it so that there is little reason to run it on a primairy and therefore open to abuse.

MagmaRed · Feb 05, 2010, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Morphy, it sounds more and more like you just want to play as a Primary class for PvP, and eliminate the secondary completely. I can agree that certain things are imbalanced, but I cannot agree with your solution. If specific SKILLS are a problem, adjust the skills, not an attribute. Some skills WILL be better used by another class, that can be said for virtually each of the 10 classes in the game for both PvP and PvE both. But a blanket change to 4+ years of attributes is not a smart thing to do. It would cause many more problems than it would fix.... if it would fix any problems.

Morphy · Feb 05, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Morphy, it sounds more and more like you just want to play as a Primary class for PvP, and eliminate the secondary completely. I can agree that certain things are imbalanced, but I cannot agree with your solution. If specific SKILLS are a problem, adjust the skills, not an attribute. Some skills WILL be better used by another class, that can be said for virtually each of the 10 classes in the game for both PvP and PvE both. But a blanket change to 4+ years of attributes is not a smart thing to do. It would cause many more problems than it would fix.... if it would fix any problems.

I have no objections to professions using secondairies to boost their primary abilities, I do have objections to professions essentially playing another profession. I know very well that some skills are better on other profs (see Shock, for example), but when an entire build is full of skills that are not from your own profession, something is wrong, in my opinion. If you disagree with this then I'm afraid there's not much point discussing this all.

Expertise affecting attack skills from other professions doesn't have any benefits for a normal Ranger. I at least haven't seen a single balanced build really benefitting from this. Even if there is one, I can barely imagine this change would have much of an impact on it. If you only take two or so other prof energy attack skills you will really not have any problems managing it. If you take a build that lolspams Energy Attack Skills, however, it DOES become a problem. This change therefore only hits the problem and gives more room to breath for future updates.

Fast Casting affecting Spells/Signets from other professions, on the other hand, does have benefits for a normal Mesmer. Skills like Gale and hard rezzes (fast rezzes are one of the Mesmer's big strengths!) in general will be better with the attribute. Because of this, simply making Fast Casting only affect Mesmer skills will have a negative effect on them. This is why I oppose doing that.

Concerning your last sentence, exactly what problems would an update such as this one cause? Just take it in vacuüm, no other skill changes. What could possibly go wrong?

Amy Awien · Feb 05, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

.... the only reason I added that was to make sure no PvE-er would go all butthurt because his gimmick gets nerfed and hopefully filter those people out.

Sounds like you're the one who got his/her butt hurt in RA, were people like to run fun-builds. We're sorry if those A/R's, A/W's, R/A's and R/D's are better skilled at playing their secondary then you are playing your primary profession.

Quote:

... I really see no reason not to implement this except for keeping idiots who are completely inept at this game from QQing about it.

It really doesn't help your argument when you call everyone who disagrees with you 'idiots who are completely inept at this game'. Really, it doesn't.

Del · Feb 05, 2010, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Sounds like you're the one who got his/her butt hurt in RA, were people like to run fun-builds. We're sorry if those A/R's, A/W's, R/A's and R/D's are better skilled at playing their secondary then you are playing your primary profession.

A/Rs are terrible. A/w is just a sin with flurry, R/A is just an unfun dumbed down shitter build that lets players with no skill buttonmash to victory, and r/d are pretty much the same, but not nearly as strong

reaper with no name · Feb 06, 2010, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

I dont hear you complaining about how necro's primary is better for spamming spirits, you wont hear me complain either.

That's because in spite of it Rits still do spirit spam significantly better than necros.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

another example, Orders Dervishes. They OBVIOUSLY do a better job keeping orders up than necros, but no one really complains that much. Why? for various reasons, really. Orders is a pretty small area compared to the rest of the necro arsenal, and they still do orders ok by themselves.

Wait, since when? Both orders builds took a huge hit during the same nerf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nachtkult

Nerfing it isn't a solution. Dervishes do need a buff, you're not going to make them any better just because you destroyed the R/D. /not signed

And if you REALLY have to nerf expertise, then nerf warriors, ritualists and sins as well. All these are better scythe users.

Believe it or not, I do care about things in this game other than dervishes. They just so happen to be both the most underpowered class and one I play a lot, so I'm more vocal about them. This is about far, far more than R/Ds.

But if anyone asks, I'm all for nerfing non-dervish scythe users. I mean, come on, they don't even know how to swing the freaking weapon properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

I have no objections to professions using secondairies to boost their primary abilities, I do have objections to professions essentially playing another profession. I know very well that some skills are better on other profs (see Shock, for example), but when an entire build is full of skills that are not from your own profession, something is wrong, in my opinion. If you disagree with this then I'm afraid there's not much point discussing this all.

Expertise affecting attack skills from other professions doesn't have any benefits for a normal Ranger. I at least haven't seen a single balanced build really benefitting from this. Even if there is one, I can barely imagine this change would have much of an impact on it. If you only take two or so other prof energy attack skills you will really not have any problems managing it. If you take a build that lolspams Energy Attack Skills, however, it DOES become a problem. This change therefore only hits the problem and gives more room to breath for future updates.

This. So much this.

upier · Feb 06, 2010, 07:18 AM // 07:18

No.
Expertise needs an all-around nerf and not just a partial one.

Xenex Xclame · Feb 06, 2010, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

That's because in spite of it Rits still do spirit spam significantly better than necros.

Sins/Wars/Dervs still do Sin/War/Derv stuff better then ranger, the basis for this nerf suggestion is flawed, so you should not give it more time.

Aurelio · Feb 06, 2010, 10:51 AM // 10:51

/Not Signed

You want to force rangers to play with only dshot and apply poison just because you were owned in RA by a melee ranger? That's bullshit.