Originally Posted by draxynnic

Reaper's argument has never been that Dervishes can't be played effectively, but that anything Dervishes can do, a character with a different primary profession can do better. He's never said that he can't succeed with a Dervish, but that other professions can do anything a Dervish can do better (usually with a Dervish secondary, but VoS gets to meet the permasin...)

Originally Posted by draxynnic

And that's where N/Rts come in.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Why don't you try contributing to the discussion like the other posters instead of complaining every time I try to suggest a way to give this class a legitimate reason to be used? Seriously, no one's forcing you to read these threads. The irony is that you accuse me of "bitching" about the class, yet all I've done lately is make suggestions, and now you come in and "bitch" about it without offering any real insight or input.

Also, what's wrong with rits? They're a fun class to play, SP is fine, and they certainly have a lot more useful build combinations than the dervish. Paragons would have been a better example.

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

Dead wrong. Earth Prayers accounts for only a fraction of dervish options for survivability. If warriors and assassins can use earth prayers to good effect, then by the same logic you have to allow that the dervish can use healing/protection prayers, shadow arts, inspiration, resto magic, blood magic, ele earth magic, etc. Patient Spirit? Reversal of Fortune? Shielding Hands? Try spamming those on a warrior or assassin (or even a monk). For a dervish at 15 Mysticism, the net energy cost for any of those spells is 0 which means you will never run out. Combine that with Avatar of Dwayna for indefinite perpetual hex removal plus MORE healing - can warriors and sins do that? Or if you want, go with Balthazar (a more traditional choice) for an unconditional, untyped armor boost that easily puts you above a warrior's default 80-100 AL. For either option note that unlike Critical Agility/Defenses (BTW one of them is completely useless against spellcasters), avatars CAN'T be stripped.


You're only considering Enchantment Spam as having an offensive use, in which case no wonder you think it sucks. For example take a monk secondary with Smiting Prayers, and throw Zealot's Fire with Reversal of Damage on your bar. Now add Avatar of Dwayna. With ZF and AoD active, is the damage output from spamming Reversal on yourself that impressive? No, but it probably shouldn't be considering you're (A) actually reflecting the damage YOU'd be receiving back at your enemies instead, (B) dealing minor aoe damage which also affects other adjacent foes, (C) removing a hex, and (D) healing yourself. All this for a net cost of 1 energy from Zealot's Fire (at 15 Mysticism), and a SINGLE 0.25s cast. Offense, defense, and utility all in a single click of the mouse - that's how Enchantment Spam actually works. If you're on par for damage with warriors and assassins (or even your own scythe) on top of all that then I think we have a serious balance problem.


Do me a favor: can you swap out Zealous Vow + Protector's Strike for Avatar of Lyssa + Strength of Honor (if you're worried about energy management, also switch MS + EA for Zealous Sweep + Lyssa's Assault)? Then take a point or two off Scythe Mastery (and dump Wind Prayers entirely) to pump Mysticism (I use +3 +1) and Smiting, then rerun those numbers for me will you?

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

So you want to spam enchantments, but can't list a single one that you want to spam? How about listing ALL of them you want to spam, and then give a reason why each of those you will list SHOULD be spammed.

Here is an example:

Dust Cloak. It does damage when you use it, and causes Blind when it ends. Having the ability to spam it would provide more damage, and more blinding.

Now, I don't believe Dust Cloak needs to be spammed, but you can see what I am looking for. Your topic is titles ENCHANTMENT SPAM, yet you fail to talk about what enchantments should be spammed. If you feel Dervish is underpowered compared to other classes, that doesn't mean enchantments should be spammed, and only able to spam them with a Dervish.

Dervish has several options for energy management. Several skills give energy back, a Zealous scythe provides energy, and they also have use of signets and secondaries. If you feel enchantments cost too much energy, maybe you're using poor builds.

I still haven't seen you list a single reason WHY enchantments should be spammed. Enchantments and scythe use are different. So stop complaining about Warrior and Assassin using scythe better, and tell us why ENCHANTMENT SPAM should be used. Or did you just title the topic poorly?

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

On a more general note, recall that Warriors were inarguably the quintessential melee combatant when Guild Wars first opened. That wasn't just a coincidence, but a result of their intended role as no other profession was designed to be anywhere near the fray. This changed with the introduction of Assassins, who could make swifter, easier kills at the cost of endurance and relative durability (presumably this was the rationale to argue that their functionality wasn't redundant). So now with the Dervish, what do you (in your own personal opinion) think they should offer that makes them competitive with yet stand apart from the warrior? Should they have better damage than the "original melee master"? If so then logically they should have lower survivability to compensate, but then all you're left with is a second-rate clone of the Assassin. Should they have lower damage? If so then we wouldn't be arguing your point.

To be fair, I think the Dervish wasn't created to actually offer a new role to experience so much as satisfy a perception that Nightfall simply needed two extra professions. But for you to argue in favor of buffs you must see some form of specialized purpose in battle that they were intended for. So share that with us.

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

You don't even hide the fact that you're cherry-picking. Splinter Weapon is a valid excuse for a whole primary attribute (increased spirit health is an even bigger joke now with .75sec spirit casting) being useless?

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Are you talking about speccing into Smiting for a crappy fire aoe every 3 sec? Zealot's fire isn't worth the slot even at 12 smiting prayers. It's not worth it at 0, either. And neither is Reversal of Damage, honestly. One attack prevented every 3 seconds? Whoopee.

Originally Posted by Buns United

My point here being was that a Ritualist primary with 14 in Channeling magic would be better at using (in this example) Splinter Weapon then a non-Ritualist class. The Dervish class doesn't have that. Non primary-Dervishes are doing more damage with a scythe then a Dervish does with 14 in the respected attribute.

Originally Posted by Buns United

They should shine in point blank AoE damage, with enchantments to offer survivability and utility, and a scythe hitting multiple targets. And unless their intended role somehow changed over these last few years they're not able to do their job.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The dervish should be the master of melee AoE, the sin the master of single-target melee, and warriors somewhere in between (with their higher base survivability and utility as their advantage).

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Question, by the way: what assassin in their right mind would use scythes? MS/DB chains are undeniably superior.

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

Good, "point blank AoE master" is the answer I was looking for. So now let's crawl down this rabbit hole and see where it leads.

If the Dervish is an AoE expert, then logically they should shine above warriors and assassins (assuming their attributes, skill, etc are roughly the same) against small tight groups. Conversely, in the interest of class balance it follows that warriors and assassins should still be superior for dealing with a single target.

To summarize your concern, warriors and assassins with no runes in Scythe can outdo a dervish with runes. Sure the dervish can still get the job done, but the issue you cite is that of optimality: simply doing something successfully isn't enough if there's still a way to do it even better. While I don't agree, let's pretend for now that I forfeit any arguments to the contrary, so we can take these assumptions as fact.

Now naturally you pose the question, "Why should a party bring a Dervish over a scythe Warrior?" But more interestingly, the question you don't ask is "Why should a party bring a scythe Warrior over an ordinary Warrior?"

Ideally scythes, swords, axes, hammers, and daggers should all be of comparable potency for their respective purposes, provided we're making our comparisons across equal levels of attribute investment. Meaning if we have an axe user and scythe user of equal competence and weapon attribute 12, Mr Axe should be just as useful against a single target as Mr Scythe in aoe situations. This principle is a bit flexible due to runes: obviously a warrior with 12+1+1 ranks in axe (or 10+1+1 which leaves extra points for other attributes) should have an edge over another warrior with 12 in scythe. So keeping that in mind, doesn't it seem to be the case that warriors that use scythes instead of a primary weapon are just gimping themselves?

The fact that they apparently aren't shows this problem doesn't just affect the dervish but also the viability of swords, axes, hammers, and daggers. What's the solution? Buff dervish enchantments? That doesn't address their inability to compete in scythe damage, nor the scythe outperforming other weapons on their own primary professions. No, a better answer is we nerf Scythe Mastery.

Drastically reduce its viability at rank 12 or under, enough that a non-dervish using a scythe with attribute 12 for its intended purpose will be appropriately disadvantaged compared to its primary weapons due to runes. Lower the damage output of all attack skills so that when the Dervish is competing against a Warrior in scythe damage, the 2 rank disparity between his 14 Scythe Mastery and the Warrior's 12 WILL make a positive difference. Precedent shows us this solution is not only effective but quite typical: Flail was nerfed at one point for the Warrior's benefit when it was more effective in ranger bow builds, Signet of Humility was made more difficult to use in conjunction with non-mesmer skills, and "There's Nothing To Fear!" was nerfed shortly after its creation so rits could no longer use it more effectively than paragons.

Now since we're also reducing the range of viable investments a Dervish can make in his own attributes, you might be confused by what appears to be an obvious contradiction: that we're actually weakening the Dervish (as well as the collective potential of his entire group) in order to increase its viability. This is a phenomenon known in mathematical game theory as the Tragedy of the commons. Every step we just took was perfectly logical with respects to the explicit goal of helping the dervishes achieve a slight edge in their potential for scythe damage with warriors and assassins. Since by your own specifications this is more important to you than whether the Dervish can simply do its job well, it is in this regard that the expendable cost for fulfilling our rational self interest is now apparent.

Short version: Dervish is now weaker as a whole, but stronger compared to warriors and assassins using scythe.

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Question, by the way: what assassin in their right mind would use scythes? MS/DB chains are undeniably superior.

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

What do you mean, "any advantages scythe users do have over MS/DB?" There are none.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Dervishes being inferior does not equal dervishes having trouble getting into groups. It just equals dervishes being inferior. Nothing more, nothing less.

If the dervish isn't underpowered, then why are warriors and sins able to use their stuff better than them? Last time I checked, that was a textbook example of a balance problem, much like Me/E nukers in PvP, N/Rts before the rit buff, and ER healers now.