Curse

AmbientMelody · Feb 21, 2010, 08:22 PM // 20:22

As in topic:

I propose few changes (taking into account preliminary update notes as well) in order to make Hammer Warrior and Scythe Dervish more in line in pve versus their direct competitors, be it different builds over the same class or another class using the same or similar (in principle) build.

Hammer Warrior.

#1 Problem - Stonefist insignia

Hammer Warrior is basically forced to use Stonefist insignias, because the default 2-second knockdown is not only certainly not enough in pvp, it's also quite laughable in the pve.

It has a huge drawback, though - if the said Warrior was to use any armour set different than Survivor (useless in pve) or Gladiator (risky in pve but useful all-round), such as Dreadnought (+10 AL versus all), Sentinel (+20 AL versus elemental), Brawler's (+10 AL while attacking) or literally any other armour piece insignia, the Warrior won't make use of the said bonus 100% of the time even if the remaining 4 armour parts share the same type of insignia.

Naturally, assigning Stonefist to either boots or gloves will make the chance noticeably smaller, but the problem is still there.

The original intent behind Stonefist was to give Hammer-wielding Warriors an edge over any other class using a hammer in terms of knockdown. It certainly wasn't to handicap the Warrior in some way in return, because there were times when many armour bonuses from individual parts had a global effect.

Another side effect is that non-warrior knockdown skills also benefit from the longer knockdown, while clearly they shouldn't - such as shock, or even (if you are ridiculous) earthquake (sic)!

Now, to the point - What I propose on this one, is that the Stonefist insignia creation/looting possibility will be removed from the game altogether and existing Stonefist insignias will lose their effect and/or be deleted as well.

In return, the Strength attribute will provide a fixed knockdown duration bonus in form of 1 second to all Hammer skills, be it one-point investment or 16-point investment (debatable ; perhaps requirement of Strength value of 8/9 would make more sense).

It's still debatable whether skills such as grapple or shove should benefit from it (e.g. change from 'all hammer skills' to 'all warrior skills'), because anyone with at least a moderate dose of common sense WOULD use Stonefist insignia (especially in pvp) if he had ANY knockdown skill as a warrior ... and the said skills could get a fixed 3-second duration instead of the default 'knockdown effect' worth of full 2 seconds (perhaps should apply to shock as well from Elementalist line, but like said, debatable).

#2 Problem - Individual skills

Hammer attacks are ridiculously slow, even over frenzy and this becomes especially troublesome against running away targets, due to more time wasted on performing the attack animation before chasing the target again. This of course, can be mitigated in large part by usage of target-control skills such as bull's strike, so won't be covered here.

The main issue is with slower adrenaline gain over time, due to slower attack speed, despite the attack skills having very similar adrenaline costs to the sword and axe line.

The main problem is with Backbreaker, the skill which in itself still is nothing special for the Warrior, but saw a lot of love in the hands of Assassin before the change. Unless we want the Hammer Warriors to chuck spears in eternity between spikes instead of actively smashing their targets, like sword and axe users can afford most of the time (better survivability, faster attacks, easier adrenaline charging), then it would be worthwhile to buff the skill, a little.

First change would be to reduce adrenaline cost from 10 to 8 (I'm not entirely convinced 1 adrenaline tip less is enough), second change would be to make the skill unblockable.

Backbreaker (1-16 hammer mastery)

Full: If Backbreaker hits, you strike for +1...16 damage and your target is knocked down for 2...3 seconds. Unblockable. [knockdown effect synergy with stonefist insignia/proposed Strength bonus, up to 4-second total KD]

8 adrenaline cost

Alternatively, the skill could be given instead deep wound effect as well as increased added damage (up to +42 on 16 hammer mastery) at the cost of losing all adrenaline and energy, to make the skill less dependable on successful skill combo (Hammer Warriors in general suffer from this, many of their skills work best in lengthy combos while the most direct competitor - axe Warrior - can employ highly destructive tactics with just 2-3 attack skills), while still leaving some time space between the spikes.

Backbreaker (1-16 hammer mastery)

Full: If Backbreaker hits, you strike for +10...42 damage, your target is knocked down for 2...3 seconds and you lose all of your remaining adrenaline and energy. Unblockable. [knockdown effect synergy with stonefist insignia/proposed Strength bonus, up to 4-second total KD]

10 adrenaline cost

The next problem is abundance of useful disruption skills. One could say that knockdown is a disruption and blackout skill in itself, already, but it is slow and it can be very often protted or blocked, meaning immediate miss due to bad reaction time or dominance of passive defense means over the active ones.

My proposal in this area is to rework the 'Counter Blow' a little.

Counter Blow

Full: If this attack hits a foe, that foe is interrupted. If this attack hits a foe using a skill, that foe is knocked down and the skill is disabled for 20 seconds.

5 energy cost, 15 second recharge, 1 second activation time

That way the skill becomes more reactive, because it can be used instantly, but it also can no longer be spammed due to the energy strain and recharge. Shorter activation time actually makes the skill useful at emergency interrupting key skills.

#3 Problem - Knockdown-resistant mobs

Simply remove such resistance. Every mob should be a viable target of knockdown effect. Additionally, monster immunities to bleeding could be removed as well, to reduce the strain on primary Sword users.

Summary

Backbreaker Warrior can lay more waste against targets under a blocking enchantment/stance spam. The skill mechanic is similar to Decapitate. This makes Warriors in pvp less dependable on softening up the target and add to their aggressive character, instead of simple shutdown or spike support.

The addition of highly reactive interrupt/knockdown skill increases their flexibility all-around, adding an useful skill to wide range of skill bars, allowing to pressure their targets better. Viable alternative to noticeably faster Distracting Blow.

PvE Warriors can enjoy armour bonuses working 100% of the time as well as knockdown bonus (which should be their speciality, not additional 'bonus' which you have to pay for ... otherwise why not make a bunny thumper instead?). Hopefully enough of an incentive to convince the doubting Hammer Warrior lovers in pve. Still, lack of shield and lesser amount of avaible mods such as +30/45 hp compared to sword/axe Warriors means worse survivability.

Scythe Dervish

The main problem with Scythe Dervish user is high dependence on wind/earth prayers or secondary profession, in addition to Scythe Mastery and Mysticism to field not only competitive close-quarter melee power but also unhindered movement around the field.

Proposal 1: Rework the Mysticism line. Make the Dervish get additional health and energy from using Scythe Attacks (consider moving Eremite's Attack and Mystic Sweep from 'melee attack' to 'scythe attack') instead of using enchantments. Also, increase the hit points bonus gained for each skill use and/or multiply it by a number of targets affected.

Desired effect: Abuse of invincible primary dervish healers/casters is removed, the Dervish is encouraged to play aggressively and doesn't get a dubious bonus for wasting time on casting enchantments.

Proposal 2: Dervish enchantments have casting time of 3/4 second at most.

Desired effect: Less DPS goes to waste while casting enchantments.

Proposal 3: Few key skills related to character offensive effectiveness get moved from Earth and Wind line to Mysticism, skills related more to farming or self-preservation from Mysticism line get moved to Wind and Earth line.

Desired effect: Highly competitive Dervish pvp builds based around mediocre defensive and very good offensive abilities, pve game fairly unhindered, giving a choice between offense and defense.

Reverend Dr · Feb 21, 2010, 08:58 PM // 20:58

You seriously think stonefist insignias handicap warriors? What the hell son?

*lemming* · Feb 21, 2010, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Freeing up an insignia slot by attaching the stonefist effect to Strength is an extremely minor benefit at the cost of reducing build flexibility by requiring investment in Strength.

Backbreaker's already getting a buff.

Hammers have a niche in disruption in that they do it through chaining knockdowns, not interrupts.

mistokibbles · Feb 21, 2010, 09:05 PM // 21:05

You have never PvP'd if you honestly think stonefists aren't worth the one insignia slot.

AmbientMelody · Feb 21, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistokibbles

You have never PvP'd if you honestly think stonefists aren't worth the one insignia slot.

I should have put in bold: In PvE, not really worth it. (survival on par or more important than offense, especially for a character without a shield).

In PvP I couldn't care less, mix of +hp/+ene is all I'd need in most cases.

In PvE it is a problem, because armour bonus won't trigger all of the times. Sometimes you get hit for 107 damage, the other time for 93 from the same spell, because armour bonuses are local and not global. I wanted to sort it out.

Strength requirement for additional KD was optional, originally I opposed this idea altogether.

MisterB · Feb 21, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Play warrior more. Stonefist doesn't hurt in PvE either. Bring Earthbind to remove KD immunity, or don't use knockdown builds in areas where foes are immune. Hammer attack speed is fine. Adrenaline gain is not an issue. I prefer the current Counter Blow.

jonnieboi05 · Feb 21, 2010, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

You seriously think stonefist insignias handicap warriors? What the hell son?

This

Stonefist is beneficial in both PvP and PvE.

Hells Fury · Feb 21, 2010, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Even dough i don't use stonefist insignia at all in pve (nor hammer...yet) you really think that 10 armor or few hp points make difference? I feed mah heroes(read necros) with SY and they feed me with prot spirit (which i micro). If u need moar armor use global ones shield+armor buff+IAU not localized armor insignias.

Luminarus · Feb 21, 2010, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Either this is a joke, then lol.

OR...

this is serious... and LOL!!!!!!

The only rework I kinda find interesting is counter blow. Except id make it more like d-chop... no increased attack speed, no extra damage but if it hits, knockdown (no 20sec disable)

EDIT: by if it hits I mean if it hits a skill.

AmbientMelody · Feb 21, 2010, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

Even dough i don't use stonefist insignia at all in pve (nor hammer...yet) you really think that 10 armor or few hp points make difference? I feed mah heroes(read necros) with SY and they feed me with prot spirit (which i micro). If u need moar armor use global ones shield+armor buff+IAU not localized armor insignias.

+ previous posters

...

I will say this - it's more of an annoyance and ill-thought left-over in case of stonefist than an obstacle for dedicated hammers. Still, it's stopping many from rolling a hammer in pve. They don't like mobs which can't be knocked down, they don't like the fact they will have less hp than sword/axe + shield (less armour is allright, but less weapon mods not really ...) and they don't want to risk their survivability for something what essentially should be a part of the class itself without anything additional in the item specs.

Even if something doesn't look like an improvement worth considering in the first place, I really wouldn't mind to actually see those hammer warriors in pve more often than once per light year. How that's done is another case ... at least I tried to research what might have an influence on their popularity or lack there of.

Sword + Axe for pve and Hammer + Axe for pvp seemed like a natural distinction at first, but I'd rather see more hammer action in pve in hands of casuals. The first thing you hear when you ask in LA or Ascalon 'is hammer good?' is 'it suxs, go axe' or 'go sword, looks better', even if that's not entirely judged.

So it's up to you if you are content with such state of matters or not, really.

I merely hope Anet WILL do something in the sequel to warrant fair use of all weapons in both pvp and pve.

Trying to address that issue in original game will certainly make it easier for them to do the same for gw2.

Perhaps some don't see or deny it, but many of the more recent balance changes completely changed gameplay in some cases and it looks like gw is basically a balancing playground for the gw2, at least in some areas.

shoyon456 · Feb 22, 2010, 12:58 AM // 00:58

You don't understand the problem of the Dervish, and by looking at the detail of the Warrior compared to the scarcity of the Derv confirms this.

Yes Mysticism is the main problem, but tossing out the enchantment reliance will screw over things more. The problem is compounded by the Scythe itself and the fact that Mysticism offers nothing for direct melee dmg alteration.

Adding an additional 1-2 holy damage (but not changing the overall damage of attacks) for every rank in Mysticism
OR
adding a 1-2 holy damage to adjacent foes whenever an enchantment ends or is cast upon you would be ways to effectively make the Dervish at least able to use his own weapon with slightly more efficiency than Sin/Ranger/Warrior.

Hell, lets be real here: Rits with Spirits Strength and unstrippable weapon spells, Eles with high estorage, and the abovementioned sin/ranger/warrior can all play a Dervish with the same or better results than a native Dervish. Like I said, the problem lies in Mysticism not providing any melee dmg alteration like Crit Strikes and Strength do.

However, any of the above ideas would add to power creep... which even I don't like. Yet, moreso I dislike the fact that my main is essentially useless compared to alternatives.

Xsiriss · Feb 22, 2010, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Hammers need reworking (beyond the weird changes in the preliminary notes) through things like having KD's that don't destroy your adrenaline or have very specific conditions. (for example making heavy blow 6a,tone down the damage but not make you lose all adrenaline). Counter is one of the best KD's a warrior has in PvE, as even casters auto attack. These are the wrong changes.

Morphy · Feb 22, 2010, 05:41 PM // 17:41

tl;dr

What you on? Losing 5 Health because you have to use Stonefist, big RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing deal. Changing Strength just for something this minor is dumb.

AmbientMelody · Feb 22, 2010, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Hammers need reworking (beyond the weird changes in the preliminary notes) through things like having KD's that don't destroy your adrenaline or have very specific conditions. (for example making heavy blow 6a,tone down the damage but not make you lose all adrenaline). Counter is one of the best KD's a warrior has in PvE, as even casters auto attack. These are the wrong changes.

I remember the Hammers back in Prop. Pretty much powerful, before all these nerfs to Irresistible Blow (because of thumper

) and introduction of too many passive defense goodies with Nightfall. Things like losing all adrenaline after KD, reliance on longer skill chains or not enough unblockable attacks speak for themselves in this matter - hammer was, to say the least, fairly untouched since proph, while everyone evolved, especially the monk and ele. Still, I wanted to tackle small things first before and wait for the new skill update before jumping the gun and proposing something revolutionary. I just love to hear people which never played hammer warrior 'omfg it's so much overpowered! gtfo' scream all over the place, like they couldn't simply ignore my thread and go post elsewhere.

@ morphy

It's not matter of 5hp here or there, it's matter of lottery if you use armour insignia giving AL bonus ---> guess what, AL bonus is the best insignia you can ever use as a pve warrior.

Perhaps you didn't play pve hammer, but I assure you, it is infuriating when something once works and the other time doesn't. Survivor doesn't cut it at all and extra energy is just useless. You need raw survival, armour. Armour which once works and the other time not is as good as useless. I'd rather have universal +5 AL than +10 AL which sometimes works and sometimes not, because Anet thought it's funny to have stonefist insignias.