Curse

reaper with no name · Feb 14, 2010, 05:50 AM // 05:50

So, dervish fix #5642 occured to me recently.

Mysticism
For every 3 ranks of mysticism, gain 1 energy when an enchantment ends on you and gain a 3% chance per rank to resist enchantment stripping.

One of the primary weaknesses of the dervish in both PvE and PvP is their susceptibility to having their enchantments stripped. An unenchanted dervish is often a useless (and possibly about to be dead) dervish.

The advantages to this particular fix are that while it doesn't actually make the dervish better at using the scythe (or whatever else it was trying to do), it does make the dervish a much more desirable class in circumstances in which there is a lot of enchantment stripping (much like how ER healers are currently superior to monks in most circumstances, but monks are still more desirable in certain specific cases). This gives the class the one thing it has always lacked: a mechanic that legitimately justifies the use of the class (and it does so without making any other classes less viable in any particular role).

Another nice detail is that this shouldn't make dervish monsters in PvE significantly more difficult, since it's generally more efficient to simply kill a monster than to strip it's enchantments. And even if it did, it's not like PvE is that hard to begin with if you know what you're doing.

For those wondering, no, this would not affect self-stripping (Pious Assault would still have a 100% chance of removing your enchantment), and it would calculate enchantment stripping only once for a given enchantment strip attempt (ie, Chillblains would either remove 1...2 enchantments, or none at all; it doesn't calculate it multiple times).

"But wait, what about PvP?"

Well, if we're really concerned about that, we could make this a PvE only change. But considering how useless dervishes already are in high-end PvP (and the facts that they are still vulnerable to other forms of shutdown and will have at max a 48% chance of resisting strips), I really can't imagine this having too much effect. It might make people start countering the class differently, but that's all.

So, long story short, helps dervishes, doesn't really hurt anyone else.

Now, if you look to your right, there should be a crate of tomatoes labeled "For Throwing".

Cuilan · Feb 14, 2010, 05:54 AM // 05:54

I'm generally fine with being stripped actually on most of my dervish builds. No thanks.

reaper with no name · Feb 14, 2010, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Wait, what? When is being stripped good for a dervish? If it was one of your enchantments, you've either lost energy or broken even, and no matter where the enchantment came from, you just lost a beneficial effect. So how does this make your dervish worse off than before? Unless you think the insignificant 10 hp heal every time you get stripped is better than not losing PS, AoHM, or whatever other enchantments you had on you at the time were.

Also, you forgot to throw a tomato. I put those there for a reason, you know.

Trinity Fire Angel · Feb 14, 2010, 06:10 AM // 06:10

there are lots of positive effects from enchantment stripping. have a look under earth prayers.

reaper with no name · Feb 14, 2010, 06:15 AM // 06:15

If you're using those skills, it's common sense to bring your own method of removing them, typically one that provides a benefit of it's own (such as Pious Assault), not only to take advantage of the synergy but also because you can't rely on the enemy using a strip on you right when you want them to. Never mind the fact that many enchantment strips also have other negative effects (Shatter Enchantment says hi).

Ugh · Feb 14, 2010, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Too much randomness =

, so I'd prefer this be kept out of PvP.

I'm not in favor of a PvE/PvP split, either. Dervishes are underpowered in both areas, so a buff that could apply to both would be better.

Ferminator · Feb 14, 2010, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Is this actually the #5642nd dervish fix or did you make that number up?

Gennadios · Feb 14, 2010, 07:19 AM // 07:19

I can't believe I'm the first person to bring this up... how exactly do you "resist" an enchant stripping by 3%?

Divine Ashes · Feb 14, 2010, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Having an enchant strip resistance is a whole new mechanic...I have no idea where this comes from at all.

Ugh · Feb 14, 2010, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

I can't believe I'm the first person to bring this up... how exactly do you "resist" an enchant stripping by 3%?

Good point.

Enchantment stripping is just an effect of some skills, so this buff would probably only work if it was "blah blah... for every rank Enchantment-stripping Skills have a 3% chance to fail."

And, since "Enchantment-stripping Skills" aren't a subtype of Skills, that wouldn't work.

Del · Feb 14, 2010, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Wait, what? When is being stripped good for a dervish?

When is empathy god for a warrior?
When is dazed good for a monk?
etc. etc.

not really a good way to try to make a point. people are going to do shit to you. learn to cover your enchants. i can't see a remotely good outcome to come out of giving dervs passive ways to keep enchants from being stripped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

And, since "Enchantment-stripping Skills" aren't a subtype of Skills, that wouldn't work.

word of healing= spell
immolate= spell

cast word of healing on a sin in shadowform, sin gets healed. cast immolate on a sin in shadow form,spell fails. get it?

*throws a rock at OP*

Morphy · Feb 14, 2010, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Randomly preventing Enchantment stripping is a terrible idea. Has nothing to do with skill.

Ugh · Feb 14, 2010, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

word of healing= spell
immolate= spell

cast word of healing on a sin in shadowform, sin gets healed. cast immolate on a sin in shadow form,spell fails. get it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

Elite Enchantment Spell. (5...18...21 seconds.) Hostile spells targeting you fail, and attacks against you miss. You also deal 33% less damage. End effect: lose all but 5...41...50 Health.

SF works because it blocks spells from enemies and allows spells from allies. It's completely different. (Get it?)

A skill like Trapper's Speed can affect only traps because Traps are a subtype of Skills. An effect like the one suggested by the OP probably wouldn't be able to affect only skills that remove enchantments because the fact that they remove enchantments is a common effect rather than a defining characteristic.

Desert Rose · Feb 14, 2010, 10:40 AM // 10:40

This is by far your worst suggestion yet; random chance is bad.

Better idea would be a PvE-buff to skills like Mystic Twister, Grenth's Fingers, Staggering Force, etc so that dervishes becomes powerful in the way they were intended to: As PBAoE casters.

Del · Feb 14, 2010, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

SF works because it blocks spells from enemies and allows spells from allies. It's completely different. (Get it?)

A skill like Trapper's Speed can affect only traps because Traps are a subtype of Skills. An effect like the one suggested by the OP probably wouldn't be able to affect only skills that remove enchantments because the fact that they remove enchantments is a common effect rather than a defining characteristic.

ok, so you don't gt it.

what i meant to say is, seeing immo would fail because it's intent is to damage the sin, an enchant strip would have a chance to fail because it's supposed to remove an enchant.

Ugh · Feb 14, 2010, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

ok, so you don't gt it.

what i meant to say is, seeing immo would fail because it's intent is to damage the sin, an enchant strip would have a chance to fail because it's supposed to remove an enchant.

I don't really know how to explain this more than I already have.

Touch Skills =/= touch skills
Enchantment-Stripping Skills =/= skills that strip enchantments

"Can't Touch This!" can make all touch skills fail because touch skills have been grouped together (in a group called Touch Skills) and that group can be acted upon as a single entity.

OP's buff wouldn't be able to work because there is no group of Enchantment-Stripping Skills that all skills that strip enchantments belong to. Skills that strip enchantments are not binded together, they just have a common effect. For your mentality to be correct, all skills would labeled as Enchantment-Stripping Spell instead of Spell or Melee Cripple-Causing Attack instead of Melee Attack and so on (it is possible Anet grouped skills this way, but they have given us no cause to believe such a thought and if they did they would have to re-categorize skills with each functionality change).

Basically:
All touch skills were put into the group called Touch Skills by Anet so it would be easy to make them all affected by things like Expertise and "Can't Touch This!" Some examples of other groups include Melee Skills, Traps, Glyphs, and Signets.

All enchantment-stripping skills have most likely not been put into a group of Enchantment-Stripping Skills so they can not be easily affected by things like the OP suggests.

reaper with no name · Feb 14, 2010, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

This is by far your worst suggestion yet; random chance is bad.

Better idea would be a PvE-buff to skills like Mystic Twister, Grenth's Fingers, Staggering Force, etc so that dervishes becomes powerful in the way they were intended to: As PBAoE casters.

Do you have any idea what this would require?

For PBAoE to be viable in PvE, you'd have to be able to cast Eternal Aura every second (or an equivalent spell). Anything less than 40 AoE dps (after armor is considered) would be meaningless due to MSDB. And don't forget the aftercast delays, or the energy required to infinitely spam so many 90 dmg AoEs (well, unless it's 60 damage but 1/2 sec cast time or whatever).

Oh, and just for the record, I tried suggesting that once, just to shut up people who were suggesting I try it (by showing them exactly how overpowered you would have to make PBAoE for it to be a viable PvE mechanic). As expected, the idea was a flop.

Also, you must not have seen my Vow Of Silence suggestion. That one was bad, even in my opinion (now, if only I had seen the abuses before I made it...

).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Good point.

Enchantment stripping is just an effect of some skills, so this buff would probably only work if it was "blah blah... for every rank Enchantment-stripping Skills have a 3% chance to fail."

And, since "Enchantment-stripping Skills" aren't a subtype of Skills, that wouldn't work.

That's exactly what "resisting" means. Sorry for the confusion.

Actually, there's no reason to think it wouldn't work, unless you actually think that Anet doesn't have a single "enchantment strip" function that it calls each time a skill attempts to do so. All you'd have to do is put an if statement in there to check for mysticism and calculate whether the enchantment strip works or not. So unless Anet is full of terrible programmers who don't know how to keep their code modular, that would take about 5 minutes to implement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

When is empathy god for a warrior?
When is dazed good for a monk?
etc. etc.

not really a good way to try to make a point. people are going to do shit to you. learn to cover your enchants. i can't see a remotely good outcome to come out of giving dervs passive ways to keep enchants from being stripped.

word of healing= spell
immolate= spell

cast word of healing on a sin in shadowform, sin gets healed. cast immolate on a sin in shadow form,spell fails. get it?

*throws a rock at OP*

The point is to give dervishes some reason to be used, which there currently is not. In PvE, warriors and sins outclass them at everything they can do. Honestly, we might as well delete the class for PvE and give their skills to other professions, because there's no point in even having dervishes if they can't contribute something meaningful to a party. This would give them that something (a significant advantage in enchantment strip-heavy areas) without requiring any nerfs to other classes (so warriors and sins can keep being overpowered with the scythe everywhere else).

Also, dude, that was so not necessary. Tomatoes would have worked just fine. Ow...

Del · Feb 14, 2010, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

I don't really know how to explain this more than I already have.

Touch Skills =/= touch skills
Enchantment-Stripping Skills =/= skills that strip enchantments

"Can't Touch This!" can make all touch skills fail because touch skills have been grouped together (in a group called Touch Skills) and that group can be acted upon as a single entity.

By your logic, RoF wouldn't work because there is no subset of damage skills. point is spell attempts to remove enchant, chance kicks in, either mysticism would save it, or it would be removed.

Tenebrae · Feb 14, 2010, 09:09 PM // 21:09

I think you stick too much with enchs instead of the word "mysticism" . I would add effects when gain/lose hex or condition too , there could be some chance to buff att without making them a killing/enchspamming/skill spam machine.

shoyon456 · Feb 14, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Bad suggestion. But ANET NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT MYSTICISM. Are you listening Regina/Linsey/anyone?! FIX MYSTICISM. Thank you, that is all.