Curse

Tenebrae · Mar 10, 2010, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I was referring to PvE, so with that in mind, RC says hi. Hell, a Paragon could slap on RC and be more impressive than IJAFW with NO points in Prot, because 10(+) healing is more useful than IMS in PvE

I never said i was referring to PvP dude. RC on a Paragon is BS , that healing is worth nothing and IJAFW costs 3 energy , no casting time and less reuse , frees your prot elite for something worth more than RC ( holy shit , almost anything , pff RC on pve ) and also any condt removal in prots bar. Seriously , before thrashing it , use it on a regular 12spear/10command/10leadership resto P .... its damn good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Even so, I'd much rather TPIY be changed in functionality to something more useful in general.

It will be better something like "you lose all adrenaline/energy , for each point lost , party members on earshot gain X energy/Y energy regen for Z seconds". That would be good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I still say reducing the range of chants and upping their potential overall (recharge, functionality, effect) is a pretty interesting way to go, and it makes sense, both logically and playability. Chanting is generally quieter then shouting, and it's more effective when your team is more bunched up, having the downside of being vulnerable to AoE, or else you'll have to move around to effect the frontline, and actually have to THINK about what you're doing.

Yeah, also would be interesting if chants , echos or whatever are shown in screen or at least have some kind of graphical effect on chars that have one ...... its really annoying not knowing who has them and who dont.

Recharge is an issue but most of all , casting time. You cant gain energy ( using zealous and an IAS ) or adrenaline if you are more than half of combat time casting moti skills , that REALLY sucks.

Desert Rose · Mar 10, 2010, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I was referring to PvE, so with that in mind, RC says hi. Hell, a Paragon could slap on RC and be more impressive than IJAFW with NO points in Prot, because 10(+) healing is more useful than IMS in PvE

TPIY is pretty poor, but if it was buffed any more it'd be OP. The only real change I can see to it being something along the lines of HYAHHHHH!. Lasts 3 seconds, effect stacks up to three times(scaling with motivation). 3 seconds certainly doesn't leave much of a window to cover, so it's still fragile.

IJAFW can be used nearly 40% more often and costs 40% less energy than RC, and it's a shout, this means it has neither a skill activation nor a aftercast delay and can be used any time.
So, RC isn't better than IJAFW in every situation, especially on a paragon.

The "problem" with is TPIY that to be good it requires something most PvE players don't seem to like or know about: Synergy between builds of different players.
The main purpose of TPIY isn't the energy gain but to trigger all echos on all your teammates every 5-6 seconds.

Imo, both "It's Just a Flesh Wound!" and "The Power Is Yours!" have the right power and other skills should be balanced to be about on par with these two skills.

Quote:

I still say reducing the range of chants and upping their potential overall (recharge, functionality, effect) is a pretty interesting way to go, and it makes sense, both logically and playability.

A long time I also thought that way, but recently I realised that reducing the range of chants will only minimize the line between useless and overpowered for those skills and wouldn't help balancing the paragon at all.

drkn · Mar 10, 2010, 10:19 PM // 22:19

reworking paragon would also need reworking the tactics line. i've already suggested to change warrior's tactics into 'tactics i use to kill the enemy' rather than 'tactics i and my party use to get through the fight'.

so warrior should still keep shouts like fear me!, to the limit!, or victory is mine! (and all other typical in-combat shouts), while party-wide buffs and commanding shouts should be moved to paragon attributes: charge!, retreat!, shields up!, watch yourselves! and, most of all, save yourselves!.

i think that the very best option to deal both with imbagons and general lore-like approach at class niches would be to split SY and TNTF into paragon pve skills, but limiting them so that only one of those could be used at a given time. the easiest way to achieve it would be to make SY a kurzick skill, while TNTF would be a corresponding luxon version, and spear of fury got moved to sunspear line.
i know that this option is clearly theoretical and probably impossible, mainly because of no filler for warrior kurzick skill. still, it would nerf the imbagon without nerfing any skill (just killing the synergy).

there's more niches in pve than healing, protting, killing, tanking and running. there's party buffing, there's handicapping mobs with conditions and hexes, there's shutdown, there's killing single targets fast. and even more.
the paras' problem is that they are not really designed to have a niche - warriors have party-wide shouts, monks and rits have heals, necros have party energy management, various classes have conditions that can be used much better. lore tells us that they should be the leaders, rather inspiring and motivating their friends than killing mobs themselves. so skills increasing party member's damage, armor, healing rate, attack speed, movement speed, energy regen, hp regen (not necessarily healing, though*) should be in their attributes.

* i can't imagine how a shouting leader could heal his army. i mean, monks have divine prayers and they use the power of dwayna to heal wounds - aight, it's a fantasy game, magic is everywhere, it's pretty logical. ritualists draw energy from spirits, dervishes are mystic warriors in commune with nature (earth, wind) - fine. but how can a shout actually heal someone? i can imagine getting inspired by my leader so i don't pay attention to my wounds and fight despite being severely damaged - it might increase hp regen or even heal a bit, BUT with a drawback - after the adrenaline has passed, i'd feel those wounds, as they're not healed. i mean, elrond can heal you with the power of elves combined with herbalism, gandalf probably can heal you with the power of majars, but what can aragorn do in the heat of battle?
that way - having healing shouts that also have a drawback - paragon could be something different than a monk or rit, yet still fitting their lore role.

draxynnic · Mar 11, 2010, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

The "problem" with is TPIY that to be good it requires something most PvE players don't seem to like or know about: Synergy between builds of different players.
The main purpose of TPIY isn't the energy gain but to trigger all echos on all your teammates every 5-6 seconds.

Except that GftE can do the same thing while being non-elite and having an effect that I would argue is more useful than what boils down to 1 extra energy per ally, possibly even on casters.

drkn's idea is an interesting one for conceptualising paragons further, especially since we already have a mechanic for that - have shouts that grant an increase to maximum hitpoints over their duration. That would help against spikes and give the healers a bit more time to get a proper heal in, but if the shout wears off while a character is only alive because of the boost...