Curse

jazilla · Mar 17, 2010, 04:13 AM // 04:13

For the love of Pete, merge the useless(in PVP and PvE) Motivation Line to Leadership. Put half the skills in Command, and Half in Leadership. This is the one time I will say to ANET, "What, you want to use a dartboard to decide which skill goes to which attribute? Fine!"

Make all of the Motivation shields into Leadership Shields(that would even stimulate the market) and do away with the line completely. I am pretty sure that no one would be angered by the loss of the Motiv. attribute.

caballo_oscuro · Mar 17, 2010, 05:00 AM // 05:00

You haven't explained how you would split the skills into the other attribute lines, why this would be necessary, what purpose it would serve, how making more of one kind of shield available would stimulate the economy, whatbenefit it would have...

Basically all you've done is made a rant, said nothing productive and demonstrated that you have an inability to properly utilise motivation.

If you want to make a change, it has to serve a purpose. It just looks like all you want to do is put those skills into leadership and have more attribute points to play with for whatever gimmick build you've conjured up that you can't get to work properly cos all your points need to go into motivation. Learn to play the game, to construct a criticism and to play your profession.

jazilla · Mar 17, 2010, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by caballo_oscuro

You haven't explained how you would split the skills into the other attribute lines, why this would be necessary, what purpose it would serve, how making more of one kind of shield available would stimulate the economy, whatbenefit it would have...

Basically all you've done is made a rant, said nothing productive and demonstrated that you have an inability to properly utilise motivation.

If you want to make a change, it has to serve a purpose. It just looks like all you want to do is put those skills into leadership and have more attribute points to play with for whatever gimmick build you've conjured up that you can't get to work properly cos all your points need to go into motivation. Learn to play the game, to construct a criticism and to play your profession.

...or I find the Motivation Line useless and I think half the skills should go into Command(I don't care, you pick dude) and half into Leadership. I don't have a gimmick build. I just sit on my Para with tomes and I can't get myself to EVER use any on Motivation skills. It was a kind of rant, but there was a suggestion there to if you could look past your Smug for just a second man.

Xslash · Mar 17, 2010, 05:30 AM // 05:30

wouldnt paragons have one less attribute then?
thatd be weird

**Marty Silverblade** · Mar 17, 2010, 07:25 AM // 07:25

This is just a cheap lazy way to fix unused attributes. Perhaps Anet will get onto professions that actually need buffing in the next update.

MagmaRed · Mar 17, 2010, 09:57 AM // 09:57

It may need some work, but it is hardly in need of extermination. Tactics was worse than Motivation at its worst point, and that got fixed fairly nicely. I use Sogolon quite a bit for areas he is available, and he uses Motivation skills. This is a very poor suggestion, though I am being generous to call it a suggestion. Removing an attribute is a last resort, try coming up with a way to IMPROVE the attribute if you are unhappy with it.

FoxBat · Mar 17, 2010, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Motivation is a somewhat flawed concept. At best it's basically monks with 100+ AL, and thus was not surprisingly nerfed into the ground. The end result is that none of these skills actually can be any good and remain balanced without some significant rework.

Expert · Mar 17, 2010, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Motivation isn't useless. However, I would strongly agree that it needs a buff.

Luminarus · Mar 17, 2010, 12:26 PM // 12:26

The problem with motivation is that its either useful and op or not and... well that parts obvious.

For pvp it should stay dead, but I see no reason why all the paragon skills that got nerfed for pvp reasons should be dead for pve reasons.

jazilla · Mar 17, 2010, 04:42 PM // 16:42

If it were indeed useful, or like some have suggested on here(MagmaRed) that even, "Tactics was worse than Motiv. at its worst point", then why don't I see more Mo/P's around using Motivation? You don't because it's terrible. It's rubbish. All of these skills need to be moved. Think outside the box. So what if Paragons only have 3 attributes from this point on? Last time I checked, you can still only take 8 skills out into that big scary world. I only use 3 attributes as it is now! And guess what, so does EVERYONE else.

The Paragon attribute system is flawed anyways. You have to put points in Spear Mastery, Leadership and then Motiv. or Command for a shield. That's 3 mandatory attributes that you must pour points into. On my warrior, I can pour points into 2. My Elementalist? 2. My Dervish? 2. Mesmer? 2. My Ranger? 2. My Assassin? 2. You get the picture. Sure, I am not saying that doing that works perfectly, but seriously, it would do ZERO to hurt the Paragon class if Motivation was absorbed into Leadership/Command and you split the skills half and half into each attribute and then made all motivation shields into Leadership shields. There is like a year left of this game being viable. Do something to make the Paragon cool to play, because if it isn't obvious to everyone else, it's obvious to me that the Paragon won't see the light of day in GW2.

I barely play my paragon, and the only reason I started this thread, is because I was using some Paragon tomes that I got last night. I logged on to my Para, and I looked at the Motivation line, and there wasn't a skill that I wanted to unlock. There was nothing that jumped out at me like, "Oh that would be amazing with that" you know what I mean? Do that or get rid of the "cast" times for the echoes/shouts/chants etc. for PvE, but at least DO something with it. It's stinkin' terrible this way.

MithranArkanere · Mar 17, 2010, 05:06 PM // 17:06

One should focus on the defense, and the other in the offense.
Instead, they added most defense into leadership, and made motivation a weird 'buffing' line.
The buffing skills should be in leadership.

Paragons skills were always too indefinite.

MagmaRed · Mar 17, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

If it were indeed useful, or like some have suggested on here(MagmaRed) that even, "Tactics was worse than Motiv. at its worst point", then why don't I see more Mo/P's around using Motivation? You don't because it's terrible. It's rubbish. All of these skills need to be moved. Think outside the box. So what if Paragons only have 3 attributes from this point on? Last time I checked, you can still only take 8 skills out into that big scary world. I only use 3 attributes as it is now! And guess what, so does EVERYONE else.

The Paragon attribute system is flawed anyways. You have to put points in Spear Mastery, Leadership and then Motiv. or Command for a shield. That's 3 mandatory attributes that you must pour points into. On my warrior, I can pour points into 2. My Elementalist? 2. My Dervish? 2. Mesmer? 2. My Ranger? 2. My Assassin? 2. You get the picture. Sure, I am not saying that doing that works perfectly, but seriously, it would do ZERO to hurt the Paragon class if Motivation was absorbed into Leadership/Command and you split the skills half and half into each attribute and then made all motivation shields into Leadership shields. There is like a year left of this game being viable. Do something to make the Paragon cool to play, because if it isn't obvious to everyone else, it's obvious to me that the Paragon won't see the light of day in GW2.

I barely play my paragon, and the only reason I started this thread, is because I was using some Paragon tomes that I got last night. I logged on to my Para, and I looked at the Motivation line, and there wasn't a skill that I wanted to unlock. There was nothing that jumped out at me like, "Oh that would be amazing with that" you know what I mean? Do that or get rid of the "cast" times for the echoes/shouts/chants etc. for PvE, but at least DO something with it. It's stinkin' terrible this way.

I use 3 attributes for most of my characters. Sure, there are builds that only use 2, but that doesn't mean there are no builds for 3 attributes, or that 2 attribute builds are better. Look at Ranger using Marksmanship, Expertise, and Wilderness Survival. Monk using Healing Prayers, Protection Prayers, and Divine Favor (and Tactics). Mesmer using Domination Magic, Fast Casting, and Inspiration Magic. Dervish using Scythe Mastery, Earth Prayers, and Mysticism (yes, there are good skills to be used in that attribute). I could continue with more examples, but this should show you some indications that 3 attribute builds are common. And notice I didn't use attributes from a secondary (outside of my mention of Tactics on a Monk). Nor did I list farming builds which would typically use 3-4 attributes.

Then, you can look at your point about running Command/Motivation for a shield. Ritualists often run Channeling and Restoration/Communing Maxed, just the 2 attributes, with the leftovers in Spawning Power since they aren't needed. If you wanted to run a build with no skills from Command/Motivation, you could max Leadership and Spear Mastery and get 8 armor from the shield. You alread have 80AL armor, so the loss of 8 armor isn't a huge issue, especially since you would be at spear range, not melee range.

Yes, I agree Motivation needs some help (as do a few things), but elimination is not a good choice. Nor would it be possible (from my knowledge of the game structure). Removing an attribute completely would cause problems for all the existing shields. I do not believe it would be possible to convert all the existing shields into a Command requirement. And since there is no Leadership required shields, this would entail a shift of the existing info from Motivation to Leadership. And from what I have gathered, Anet does not want to include Leadership shields because of balance issues.

Ideas to improve Motivation would make since, but to remove the entire attribute? That seems idiotic to me.

Lanier · Mar 17, 2010, 07:48 PM // 19:48

This is a horrible idea...

Sure the Motivation line needs a buff, but completely removing it from the game and leaving the paragon with only three attributes is just a flat out stupid idea.

In my opinion, the paragon class should look like this:

Spear Master - Spear attack skills
Leadership - Self Buffs (Like AR and Soldier's Fury)/Active E-management
Motivation - healing/battery skills
Command - Offensive support

jazilla · Mar 18, 2010, 12:58 AM // 00:58

I am not saying to get rid of the skills lol. I am saying to get rid of the category. Redistribute the skills into other attributes. At least read what I write. I don't care if we don't share opinions, but I am not saying to get rid of the skills, even though it is all of the skills that are useless.

Lanier · Mar 18, 2010, 01:32 AM // 01:32

I read what you wrote and I didnt think you intended to remove the skills. Im saying that removing the attribute and redistributing skills (thus leaving the paragon with 3 attributes) is not the way to go.

jazilla · Mar 18, 2010, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I read what you wrote and I didnt think you intended to remove the skills. Im saying that removing the attribute and redistributing skills (thus leaving the paragon with 3 attributes) is not the way to go.

KK what would you do? Some profs have 5 attribs. Some 4. Why not 3 for Para? They have a limited number of skills as it is. At this point in the life cycle of this game, it's not as if it matters anyways.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 18, 2010, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

KK what would you do? Some profs have 5 attribs. Some 4. Why not 3 for Para? They have a limited number of skills as it is. At this point in the life cycle of this game, it's not as if it matters anyways.

Tactics sucks (ed) so why don't we delete that attribute and redistribute those skills

Or Inspiration Magic maybe?

the "Hey, this attribute sucks, lets delete it" attitude is terrible. There are other ways to fix things then to delete an entire attribute.

To answer you're question? Why not 3? Attribute spread, for once. 12-12 attribute spread is useful, as is 10-11-10. 4 and 5 attributes give a class a lot different variation in what they choose to focus on doing. If paragons only had 3 attributes, everyone would go 10-11-10 and leave it at that.

Attributes are there for a certain "focus". Curses = debuffing, Healing magic - Healing, Inspiration = energy, ect. Motivation's focus is healing and protection of party members. Ignoring the fact that it's pretty terrible, It's STILL a focus. You can't just delete it and give the skills elsewhere, that would not make any sense.

I don't even know how you are jumping to the "delete it" route. Buffing/changing it is a LOT more viable.

In fact, you aren't arguing or suggesting anything, you're just ranting. WHY exactly do you want to do this, as opposed to changing Motivation skills themselves? Do you want Leadership shields?

Oh and "finding motivation useless" is more a reason to Buff or Change the attribute, not eliminate it.

jazilla · Mar 18, 2010, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Tactics sucks (ed) so why don't we delete that attribute and redistribute those skills

Or Inspiration Magic maybe?

the "Hey, this attribute sucks, lets delete it" attitude is terrible. There are other ways to fix things then to delete an entire attribute.

To answer you're question? Why not 3? Attribute spread, for once. 12-12 attribute spread is useful, as is 10-11-10. 4 and 5 attributes give a class a lot different variation in what they choose to focus on doing. If paragons only had 3 attributes, everyone would go 10-11-10 and leave it at that.

Attributes are there for a certain "focus". Curses = debuffing, Healing magic - Healing, Inspiration = energy, ect. Motivation's focus is healing and protection of party members. Ignoring the fact that it's pretty terrible, It's STILL a focus. You can't just delete it and give the skills elsewhere, that would not make any sense.

I don't even know how you are jumping to the "delete it" route. Buffing/changing it is a LOT more viable.

In fact, you aren't arguing or suggesting anything, you're just ranting. WHY exactly do you want to do this, as opposed to changing Motivation skills themselves? Do you want Leadership shields?

Oh and "finding motivation useless" is more a reason to Buff or Change the attribute, not eliminate it.

I've made suggestions about similar things elsewhere. I am all about buffing Motivation. It's just that ANET never did the old PvE/PvP split thing for it. It really actually seems to me that the best way to deal with it is to redistribute the skills into Leadership/Command like I said. IDK, sue me for my opinion. At least it's an idea, however terrible you think it is.

I DID suggest getting rid of all of the "Cast" times for the shouts/chants/echoes in PvE for the Motivation attribute. IDK if you read that or not, to help buff the line a bit.

I disagree with you about comparing Motivation to Inspiration though. Those are both completely useful as secondary profession attributes for a few classes. Motivation has NEVER shined for that. Not ever, dude.

I have made a lot of suggestions in this thread. You just don't happen to like it or think it's a lazy route. All valid responses, except for the fact that I did offer up suggestions.

So, to do it your way, I say that we lower the energy costs of the shouts/echoes/chants to fall more in line with the Warrior shouts in the Tactics line and make most of them 5 Energy or a 2-6(Max) adrenal cost for PvE ONLY. That would never outshine the Triple Necro business anyways, thus, not making it overpowered. In my opinion, it isn't overpowered til everyone decides that it's the best way to do things. Until then, it's fair game. If you don't agree, make your own suggestions.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 18, 2010, 07:05 AM // 07:05

I'm sure you can go to any of the previous, numerous amount of paragon threads and find suggestions I've made and others have.

There is this entire thread discussing motivation, so it doesn't need to be done here. You posted about your suggestion, and there's your feedback, whether you like it or not.

drkn · Mar 18, 2010, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

So, to do it your way, I say that we lower the energy costs of the shouts/echoes/chants to fall more in line with the Warrior shouts in the Tactics line and make most of them 5 Energy or a 2-6(Max) adrenal cost for PvE ONLY.

ever heard of leadership energy bonus?
as long as moti shouts/chants need to be reworked, especially chant's cast time and some energy costs, making them all 5e would mean that para has full energy ALL THE TIME and can run /other class to use this energy up freely.

Quote:

That would never outshine the Triple Necro business anyways, thus, not making it overpowered. In my opinion, it isn't overpowered til everyone decides that it's the best way to do things.

/rofl

there were several threads about rebalancing motivation, just use search.