Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Apr 01, 2010, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by End

De-valuating gold is bad...without value to gold there will be even less of an economy...it's broken enough already...

The player economy is comes second to gameplay benefits.

That said, those gameplay benefits - from 600/smite - far outweigh any effect from farming, even if you see it as detrimental.

People will farm. People are farming now. 600/smite could farm, yes, but it was hardly the only one. But it was invaluable for content completion on a class that's incredibly boring to H/H with in content where H/H is the only option.

ValaOfTheFens · Apr 01, 2010, 01:55 AM // 01:55

I do miss my CoF runs. It was a good way to meet new people and relax before doing content myself. Before the nerf I didn't even know what the other applications for 600/Smite were. ^_^; I don't feel that it should have been nerfed in the way it was but ANet tends to go for quick and messy solutions and I don't expect them to change their ways now. Its a good thing I didn't invest money in equipment for the 600 build. I'm still QQing about all the time and money I spent training my Ranger up for the UW solo trap farm and then having ANet nerf EW. Q.Q

Terrible Surgeon · Apr 01, 2010, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Unlike SF farmers most smite/600 teams were real players. I thought this was a good farming build because it had the cooperation of two or more people. I did think however that the speed clears were out of control and it dumbied down VQing.

Faction farming guilds also were abusing the 600/smite way too much. I can personally say i pulled in 500k if not more daily before the nerf so i could max my kurzick title. I remember when AB was a huge deal because that was how the best faction was made before the vfff builds were born.

AB was fun...600/smite and other farm builds killed it........../notsigned

MagmaRed · Apr 01, 2010, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

Unlike SF farmers most smite/600 teams were real players. I thought this was a good farming build because it had the cooperation of two or more people. I did think however that the speed clears were out of control and it dumbied down VQing.

Faction farming guilds also were abusing the 600/smite way too much. I can personally say i pulled in 500k if not more daily before the nerf so i could max my kurzick title. I remember when AB was a huge deal because that was how the best faction was made before the vfff builds were born.

AB was fun...600/smite and other farm builds killed it........../notsigned

What. Are. You. Talking. About?

Shadow Form (if that is what you mean by SF) was always a solo or team of humans setup. UWSC was done with no heroes, only players. But 600/Smite used hero smiters for almost every application. The only time humans were used was for DoA uses (and not always there), DTSC and MQSC (and not always there), or for friends wanting to play together. 90% of the 600/smite teams I saw was 1 human and 1 hero.

And I'll agree a little that the farming or faction reduced the AB population, but I don't agree that everyone obtaining faction was doing so with PvE methods. I think a bigger problem for AB was when JQ got adjusted to provide faster returns than AB does.

Zahr Dalsk · Apr 01, 2010, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

it dumbied down VQing

It gave the option to actually play vanquishing.

Without it, you just sit there and watch the heroes vanquish. That's what I call dumbed down.

MagmaRed · Apr 01, 2010, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

It gave the option to actually play vanquishing.

Without it, you just sit there and watch the heroes vanquish. That's what I call dumbed down.

Well, actually, 600/Smite is pretty dumbed down. You maintain a few enchantments, and spam a couple of skills. Only thing to worry about is interrupts and casting order, but that is a small thing to deal with. And I vanquished on my Monk, have Legendary Vanquisher. I admit I used Discord for part because as you said, the AI does not work well with a support class. But when I got sick of using Discord I realized I could run a smite build and do pretty good. RoJ and Sig of Judgement both worked well for me. But I don't see 600/smite as being crucial to playing a Monk.

Terrible Surgeon · Apr 01, 2010, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

What. Are. You. Talking. About?

Shadow Form (if that is what you mean by SF) was always a solo or team of humans setup. UWSC was done with no heroes, only players. But 600/Smite used hero smiters for almost every application. The only time humans were used was for DoA uses (and not always there), DTSC and MQSC (and not always there), or for friends wanting to play together. 90% of the 600/smite teams I saw was 1 human and 1 hero.

And I'll agree a little that the farming or faction reduced the AB population, but I don't agree that everyone obtaining faction was doing so with PvE methods. I think a bigger problem for AB was when JQ got adjusted to provide faster returns than AB does.

What i was getting at about SF [shadow form] was that it only required one person to farm. Whereas, 600/smite was typically at the least two people. I know 600's could bring a smite hero [i did] but that was normally a last resort.

Either way, i don't think that holy wrath should be returned to its prior state. The 600/smite combo was OP and required little skill to run. Also, the combination [600/smite] can still be used it's just very slow and requires a skilled smiter.

Coverticus · Apr 01, 2010, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

I know 600's could bring a smite hero [i did] but that was normally a last resort.

Think you might find that it was the other way round, most would take a hero smiter unless the human smiter was known to be reasonable (taking DTSC/MQSC out of this statement).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

Either way, i don't think that holy wrath should be returned to its prior state. The 600/smite combo was OP and required little skill to run. Also, the combination [600/smite] can still be used it's just very slow and requires a skilled smiter.

I agree that Holy Wrath is left as is - however, your statement on the current 600/Smite possibility is incorrect - you still can do with heroes (no human smiter is needed) and can still be done very quickly (I have found quicker in certain respects), you just need use a little logic and experimentation to get there.

Terrible Surgeon · Apr 01, 2010, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coverticus

your statement on the current 600/Smite possibility is incorrect - you still can do with heroes (no human smiter is needed) and can still be done very quickly (I have found quicker in certain respects), you just need use a little logic and experimentation to get there.

Haha, using the smiter build with holy wrath and retribution as it was used before with Unyielding Aura as the elite is in no way as fast as it was before.

That makes no sense saying it is quicker now as Holy Wrath ends after like 8 attacks and needs to be recast...and not to mention the smiter needs to avoid aggroing any baddies. As it is true that casting on a tank while it is under attack does aggro baddies on occasion.

I'm not disagreeing that it can't be done. I'm just saying it's pretty slow and a lot more technical than it was before when Holy wrath was a maintainable enchantment. It just blows me away that you think it can be "quicker" now.

Shayne Hawke · Apr 01, 2010, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

It gave the option to actually play vanquishing.

Without it, you just sit there and watch the heroes vanquish. That's what I call dumbed down.

And with 600/Smite, you're effectively letting the hero vanquish as well, since they're bringing the actual damaging bonds.

The options for playing a Discord caller are vast. Bring a hex, bring a condition application, bring six other skills to pump out damage/assist your team. There are also things such as picking which target to take down first, what hexes/conditions to apply where, and how you need to move your team based on what you're fighting. 600 Tank, you run in and spam skills until the smite damage wipes. I can't really see that as taking more skill than playing within a standard team.

Coverticus · Apr 01, 2010, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

Haha, using the smiter build with holy wrath and retribution as it was used before with Unyielding Aura as the elite is in no way as fast as it was before.

That makes no sense saying it is quicker now as Holy Wrath ends after like 8 attacks and needs to be recast...and not to mention the smiter needs to avoid aggroing any baddies. As it is true that casting on a tank while it is under attack does aggro baddies on occasion.

I'm not disagreeing that it can't be done. I'm just saying it's pretty slow and a lot more technical than it was before when Holy wrath was a maintainable enchantment. It just blows me away that you think it can be "quicker" now.

Did I say I was even using Holy Wrath? No. Not once. You are still in "literal mode" in that Holy Wrath must be run because it used to be.

I even gave a hint - heroes. So here's another...... forget Holy Wrath even exists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I can't really see that as taking more skill than playing within a standard team.

Can kinda agree with you here, however using Discord (or whatever hero team build floats the respective boat) pretty much can guarantee you auto-pilot most of the time. Even send in the troops, hop and get a drink and come back and the work is done. Whereas the 600 required a little more concentration and hero placement (in more tricky areas). Otherwise, yes - it's conceptually the same.

Zahr Dalsk · Apr 01, 2010, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Well, actually, 600/Smite is pretty dumbed down. You maintain a few enchantments, and spam a couple of skills.

And with H/H you press W every now and then and click on loot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

And with 600/Smite, you're effectively letting the hero vanquish as well, since they're bringing the actual damaging bonds.

You're the one activating skills constantly. Which is really what the whole "playing the game" thing is about. Playing the game.

dusanyu · Apr 01, 2010, 09:55 PM // 21:55

NO!

600 is dead get over it and actually play the game. It rilly cracks me up all these people whining about new content when they just easy mode threw most of the content in eye of the north anyway try playing it for a change.

Zahr Dalsk · Apr 01, 2010, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusanyu

600 is dead get over it and actually play the game.

No. I'll sit there and watch H/H play the game.

I actually played the game with 600/smite. Not by watching heroes and henchmen play.

Terrible Surgeon · Apr 01, 2010, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coverticus

Did I say I was even using Holy Wrath? No. Not once. You are still in "literal mode" in that Holy Wrath must be run because it used to be.

I even gave a hint - heroes. So here's another...... forget Holy Wrath even exists.

Well sorry to break it you you bro but this thread is about holy wrath and the 600/smite teams that were nerfed.....or did you miss that?

If you are offering an alternative to using holy wrath then say what that alternative is instead of keeping people guessing.

Del · Apr 02, 2010, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by End

De-valuating gold is bad...without value to gold there will be even less of an economy...it's broken enough already...

oh no, my virtual gold is worth less, how will i feed my family? this point is pretty irrelevant seeing as how

Quote:

Originally Posted by End

On the other side it removes many high end items from the high end spectrum... look at Celestial Compasses...remember way back when they were worth something? They've been over farmed so now anyone can have one...but if anyone can have one the people who have wealth have no reason to buy one...

the only reason anybody should buy anything is for epeen right? IMO, buy what you like, because buying stuff just because you want to look rich just sort of makes you a tool.

Coverticus · Apr 02, 2010, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

Well sorry to break it you you bro but this thread is about holy wrath and the 600/smite teams that were nerfed.....or did you miss that?

If you are offering an alternative to using holy wrath then say what that alternative is instead of keeping people guessing.

No. I didn't miss the title of this thread at all bro. People are wanting it back to how it was, which is understandable after any nerfbat. But as with any nerf, there will always be something that springs up that can do the job. Sometimes less effectively, sometimes more.

There isn't only one alternative to Holy Wrath. You can be creative. There are a small amount of smiting skills that are available to the bonders that in fairness are viable. Then look at the 600 and see what it can bring to the table in terms of change. I won't hand-hold a suggestion here, sorry. Just pointing out that there are still 600ing possibilites.

Shayne Hawke · Apr 02, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coverticus

Can kinda agree with you here, however using Discord (or whatever hero team build floats the respective boat) pretty much can guarantee you auto-pilot most of the time. Even send in the troops, hop and get a drink and come back and the work is done. Whereas the 600 required a little more concentration and hero placement (in more tricky areas). Otherwise, yes - it's conceptually the same.

With playing the 600, the level of difficulty to your play is constant and mandatory. You are always going to be spamming the same skills in the same ways, no matter what you face. You are forced into doing this, because if you don't, you die. Because the way you handle each enemy is effectively the same everywhere, and you are forced to handle each enemy in the same way, this is not what I can consider skillful play.

With playing beside Discord heroes (and possibly running a caller build), the level of difficulty to your play is variable and optional. You don't have one set thing that you do. Sure, you throw up the requirements for Discord and spike down targets, but different mobs have different compositions and builds, and you must account for that, whether you decide to take out a healer or support enemy first, or maybe to bring more hexes/conditions because of potential removals. You don't have to do this though; the heroes themselves should be plenty well equipped to produce the proper hexes and conditions on targets that all you might need to is ping the first target. Because interactions are not static, but your participation isn't required, the attention required to play Discordway can be anything from next to nothing, worse even than being a 600, to being extremely well focused.

Point being, you can't use the opportunity to play Discordway with zero attention as an excuse to bring back 600/Smite, because you can just as easily play Discordway with a lot more attention required than a 600 ever needs to play with. The solution isn't to bring back 600/Smite. The solution is to nerf Discordway... except that's not really a solution anyways, since there are plenty of good hero setups that aren't terribly gimmicky and could work fine with being flagged into the middle of most mobs and have near to no trouble dealing with them.

Regardless of all of the above, the reason there won't be any kind of revert is because the nerf was intended to deal with 600/Smite teams in a farming and speedclear sense. It doesn't really matter whether you find the setup to be fun to play or not, it's a (team?) build that requires little to no variation in playstyle to clear widespread amounts of content. To ignore 600/Smite in the farming sense is to immediately relieve yourself of the ability to form a good reason for why the skill changes should be reversed.

mistokibbles · Apr 02, 2010, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Old 600/smite was obviously a lot more effective, but it's not like it's impossible now. UW NM 600/smite is still very easy and some dungeons like CoF HM are still really easy, just need to tweak your builds a bit.

Del · Apr 02, 2010, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistokibbles

Old 600/smite was obviously a lot more effective, but it's not like it's impossible now. UW NM 600/smite is still very easy and some dungeons like CoF HM are still really easy, just need to tweak your builds a bit.

with a smiter modified the same way a non monk's smiter would be, and a pot like vwk or dwg it's lust as easy, just slower. yet instead of this simple idea popping into people's heads like i thought of it within 10 minutes or the nerf, people would rather cry about it. i guess no one cba to think these days.