Curse

reaper with no name · Apr 05, 2010, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Soul Reaping is overpowered. We all know this. When used for anything other than minion masters, SR allows for almost unparalleled abuse of secondary professions. Quite often an N/X can outperform the profession that it emulates, harming the viability of builds for other professions. Even with just their own profession, necromancers are incredibly powerful. There is no excuse for them to be playing other professions better then that profession can play itself.

Why is SR overpowered? The answer is, to fuel minions. Yet, a cursory glance at death magic reveals that minions are very expensive. Why are they expensive? Because SR gives so much energy.

So, the simple answer is to nerf SR while simultaneously decreasing the cost of minion skills.

"But won't making minions cheaper allow other professions to be better MMs than necros?"

No, because minions, like spirits, scale considerably based on the attribute they are linked to. Health, level, armor, damage, and number of minions are all determined by one's death magic. Other professions are limited to 12 death magic, whereas a necromancer can have 16. This ensures that regardless of how strong or weak SR is, necromancers will always be the best MMs.

Soul Reaping:
For every 2 ranks of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. You may only gain Energy in this way 3 times every 15 seconds.

Minion Costs:
Animate Bone Fiend - 15 energy
Animate Bone Horror - 5 energy
Animate Bone Minions - 10 energy
Animate Flesh Golem - 5 energy
Animate Shambling Horror - 10 energy
Animate Vampiric Horror - 10 energy
Aura of the Lich - 10 energy
Order of Undeath - 5 energy

Midnight Sands · Apr 05, 2010, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

"But won't making minions cheaper allow other professions to be better MMs than necros?"

No, because minions, like spirits, scale considerably based on the attribute they are linked to. Health, level, armor, damage, and number of minions are all determined by one's death magic. Other professions are limited to 12 death magic, whereas a necromancer can have 16. This ensures that regardless of how strong or weak SR is, necromancers will always be the best MMs.

Wrong since 9/10 times people want a bomber to soak up damage+deal some extra, not a stable MM like people used to have years ago. Besides which, the minions would die just as fast at 16 as at 12 in HM, so it makes little dif. Rt/N would end up better for explosive/ect.. Same thing applies to spirits, other classes run them just as well, many people run SoS/splinter on smite monks, ect..

And you didnt say how your going to nerf soul reaping, so cant comment on anything else..

Zahr Dalsk · Apr 05, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

No thanks, boring though Discord is, it's still the best option casters have when going H/H.

reaper with no name · Apr 05, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Sands

Wrong since 9/10 times people want a bomber to soak up damage+deal some extra, not a stable MM like people used to have years ago. Besides which, the minions would die just as fast at 16 as at 12 in HM, so it makes little dif. Rt/N would end up better for explosive/ect.. Same thing applies to spirits, other classes run them just as well, many people run SoS/splinter on smite monks, ect..

And you didnt say how your going to nerf soul reaping, so cant comment on anything else..

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Soul Reaping:
For every 2 ranks of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. You may only gain Energy in this way 3 times every 15 seconds.

Minion Bombers != Minion Masters.

Furthermore, why would you ever run a human minion bomber? Heroes are far better at it, making the argument of what profession does it better pointless. Either way, the best minion bomber will not be a human.

Also, no, other classes cannot run SoS (or spirit spam builds in general) as well as a Ritualist. They can get relatively close, but they will never quite reach the rit's level of ownage with them.

Zahr Dalsk · Apr 05, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Also, no, other classes cannot run SoS (or spirit spam builds in general) as well as a Ritualist. They can get relatively close, but they will never quite reach the rit's level of ownage with them.

You are wrong, because the difference is so negligible that they're virtually the same.

FoxBat · Apr 05, 2010, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Soul reaping is one of many things broken about PvE. I'd love to see that and everything else nerfed like ER, SY etc, but it seems absurdly unlikely.

Bulletproof Maniac · Apr 05, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

You are wrong, because the difference is so negligible that they're virtually the same.

Boon of Creation among other things is a big difference.

Rushin Roulette · Apr 05, 2010, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Wow... another carebare thread?

How about nerfing every single primary atribute so that they are all completely useless? Slowcasting Mesmers anyone? Warriors that dont have any Armor penetration? Eles with hardly any energy? Dervishes that dont ... well, Dervs anyways....

While Anet is at it they should change every single skill so that they do only 1 damage or heal for 1 HP each. That way threads like this wont be needed any more.

Ever tried a Ritualist Minionbomber? They are about as good as a necro any day and the bombing part is also way easier than a player trying to necrobomb. Does that now refute your whole point in the OP? Btw, there are more than enough good necro builds out there that do NOT involve one or more Minionmasters/bombers.

Also while were at that... Necros have already been nerfed twice already (Minions were onse uncapped and Soulreaping used to trigger at EVERY death, not only 3 times every 15 seconds).

dusanyu · Apr 05, 2010, 04:30 PM // 16:30

base energy return based on how many necromancer skills are on your bar

upier · Apr 05, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

MagmaRed · Apr 05, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

I remember when Soul Reaping allowed for inifinite energy return. No waiting 5 seconds, no limit on spirits, and you could also have more than 10 minions withou skills like Masochism. When they nerfed Soul Reaping the first time there was a huge QQ session about it. Eventually everyone got over it, but it had complaints for a LONG time. I personally see no problem with Soul Reaping large enough to warrant another nerf.

Reformed · Apr 05, 2010, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

Wow... another carebare thread?

Too bad they don't have rep on this site, you deserve it for that post. SR in it's current form is fine. Necrosis would be vastly superior to Discord freeing up the elite in a full human necroway party. Why do you suppose then that we never see them? Could it be that the bars are boring as shit to play and are only really OP when heroes mindlessly spam skills? You want to fix SR set a limit to how many of a particular hero profession can be in a given group.

reaper with no name · Apr 05, 2010, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

Wow... another carebare thread?

How about nerfing every single primary atribute so that they are all completely useless? Slowcasting Mesmers anyone? Warriors that dont have any Armor penetration? Eles with hardly any energy? Dervishes that dont ... well, Dervs anyways....

While Anet is at it they should change every single skill so that they do only 1 damage or heal for 1 HP each. That way threads like this wont be needed any more.

Ever tried a Ritualist Minionbomber? They are about as good as a necro any day and the bombing part is also way easier than a player trying to necrobomb. Does that now refute your whole point in the OP? Btw, there are more than enough good necro builds out there that do NOT involve one or more Minionmasters/bombers.

Also while were at that... Necros have already been nerfed twice already (Minions were onse uncapped and Soulreaping used to trigger at EVERY death, not only 3 times every 15 seconds).

Or better yet, let's just nerf the stuff that allows certain professions to play as another profession better than that profession can? That way, you know, everyone can have fun, and not just the people with the overpowered class(es).

Minion Bombing is better accomplished by heroes, making the question of which profession is better at it moot.

Yes, there are a lot of good necromancer builds that don't involve minions. Too many, in fact. That is, many of them are builds that other professions are supposed to be better at, yet they get crowded out of them by necromancers.

For example, let's assume for a fleeting moment that tomorrow Anet were to make elementalist nukes good again. Would this make Elementalists useful as nukers? No, it wouldn't, because N/Es would abuse SR and outcompete true eles, much like how they used to outcompete true rits.

They have been nerfed...And yet the problem still exists. Hence, another nerf is needed.

upier · Apr 05, 2010, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Reformed · Apr 05, 2010, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The energy gain is not consistent with the skill needed to gain it.

From the standpoint of being a pure utility class where you are rewarded for helping someone else make kills yes it is. I'll play though...suppose you let it rip and dumped 45ish energy on the opening salvo but nothing dies, then what? You get punished for playing poorly or mismanaging your resources on 15e skills which, IIRC, was one of the biggest gripes about adding the timer in the first place. The only direct change to SR I'd sign for is no energy gain from another persons minions in line with the spirit change. That way you can't see party wide returns on a minion army.

masterjer1 · Apr 05, 2010, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I remember when Soul Reaping allowed for inifinite energy return. No waiting 5 seconds, no limit on spirits, and you could also have more than 10 minions withou skills like Masochism. When they nerfed Soul Reaping the first time there was a huge QQ session about it. Eventually everyone got over it, but it had complaints for a LONG time. I personally see no problem with Soul Reaping large enough to warrant another nerf.

This quote sums it up for me also. Those were the days of abuse and it was finally taken care of. And now someone else wants to dumb it down somemore. I say no. I like my necro just the way he is now. No one makes you have to play a certain way, or do you cave to pug pressure?

Cuilan · Apr 05, 2010, 05:38 PM // 17:38

You like your necro the way he is because you can do any role you want as well or better than other professions and players. Not because he fits a role you enjoy or is on anywhere near equal ground. Nobody is making one play a certain way is false. Go take a look at the latest skill updates and understand people who play want to contribute to a group they're in. What's the point of having people rely on others or necromancer heroes to get them anywhere?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

How about nerfing every single primary atribute so that they are all completely useless? Slowcasting Mesmers anyone? Warriors that dont have any Armor penetration? Eles with hardly any energy? Dervishes that dont ... well, Dervs anyways....

Balance, not everything worthless. Don't confuse the two.

The over-synergized and powered professions are either going to have to be nerfed or others should have mass skill and attribute buffing.

Kook~NBK~ · Apr 05, 2010, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I remember when Soul Reaping allowed for inifinite energy return. No waiting 5 seconds, no limit on spirits, and you could also have more than 10 minions withou skills like Masochism. When they nerfed Soul Reaping the first time there was a huge QQ session about it. Eventually everyone got over it, but it had complaints for a LONG time. I personally see no problem with Soul Reaping large enough to warrant another nerf.

I seem to recall that when they nerfed SR, they nerfed it beyond what it is now and basically killed it. That triggered the QQ session. It didn't take long for A-Net to realize how badly they messed up and buffed SR up to what it is now.

masterjer1 · Apr 05, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

[QUOTE=Cuilan;5103656]You like your necro the way he is because you can do any role you want as well or better than other professions and players. Not because he fits a role you enjoy or is on anywhere near equal ground. Nobody is making one play a certain way is false.QUOTE]

You are assuming. Never assume anything. Maybe I could play my necro that way in your eyes. But I don't. I like my necro the way he is because he fills a niche for me. No one makes me play a way if I don't like it. If I haven't been to a cretain area with a class, I will take suggestions yes. Anet is a given, I was speaking of pugs in general. Besides, if you think SR is overpowered, then go without it. No one is making you use and abuse it, unless you are that weak willed.

Cuilan · Apr 05, 2010, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Your weak willed and PUG pressure stuff is meaningless. You also ignored or skipped over players who want to contribute to a group or even with H/H instead of them doing most of everything. That's nice that you may enjoy necromancers original niches but that doesn't make them balanced. A player should be allowed to work hard and see the benefits from it while having fun.