Curse

Jacobbs · Apr 06, 2010, 11:41 PM // 23:41

I know it makes for an interesting experience to have your heroes actually have a story, but for the love of god, please do not require them to come with us for missions.

It is a pain in the ass because, quite frankly, I do not like playing with heroes. It would be fantastic if this was an option. I don't know how that would work story-wise, but I would really appreciate the option to bring which ever heroes and people I want.

Case in point: Doing Grand Court in Nightfall is no biggie, but I hate the fact that you are essentially limited to 7 people because SOMEONE has to bring Tahlkora. She can prove herself a hero on her own, don't make me bring her into a mission she really has nothing to do with story-wise. I fail to see how Tahlkora being there is SO important. There are certain missions where I guess it would make sense to have the hero with us, a few missions involving General Paragon come to mind, but even then, could there not be some way for us to include these story elements without tying down the player?

Thank you for hearing my humble plea, oh Guild Wars Gods.

Barrage · Apr 07, 2010, 12:20 AM // 00:20

I believe for the first completion of the mission the hero should be required, but for every subsequent completion it should not be a requirement.

Horace Slughorn · Apr 07, 2010, 12:26 AM // 00:26

ya missions are hard

Anakita Snakecharm · Apr 07, 2010, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Ideally, I think that if the character has actual plot importance in the mission (for example, sneaking Margrid into Gandara wouldn't make sense without Margrid,) they should come along as allies rather than as heroes-- if you wanted to bring the hero too, they would show up as a duplicate like normal. Then the particular character can be present and deliver any plot-important information, without taking up a party slot.

This might be difficult to implement at this stage, though, because a team of nine would need an encounter balanced differently than a party of eight, or it would be too easy. So without having implemented this from the beginning, it's not a perfect solution.

So that being said, in terms of things that wouldn't require changes to the missions that wouldn't be a worthwhile use of time on a game this old with a sequel on the horizon:

Quote:

I believe for the first completion of the mission the hero should be required, but for every subsequent completion it should not be a requirement.

I think this would be a good compromise, so the plot stays relatively intact but once you've been through it once, you can be more flexible.

Masmar · Apr 07, 2010, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Alby is a troll.
But taking people like meloni is just stupid.
Atleast make her understand 1 decent build

Shayne Hawke · Apr 07, 2010, 12:35 AM // 00:35

This has been suggested before here, but since that topic is closed and doesn't seem to have that much more valuable discussion than flaming, I'll leave a link here as reference and let you all continue to discuss this idea here.

Since they didn't have any such requirements in EotN, I think they realized that players don't want to have such restrictions. I, for one, am all for removing those restrictions.

Jacobbs · Apr 07, 2010, 01:06 AM // 01:06

I vaguely recall some quests that required people in EotN. Maybe I have a faulty memory, it's beena while since I've done EotN.

In any case, the idea of subsequent hero-freedom appeals to me.

Shayne Hawke · Apr 07, 2010, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Those quests are entirely optional. Much different from missions that you have to complete to finish the storyline, or replay for title progression.

Anakita Snakecharm · Apr 07, 2010, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

I vaguely recall some quests that required people in EotN. Maybe I have a faulty memory, it's beena while since I've done EotN.

Typically primary quests that require a specific character are before you are able to use that character as a hero, and they are allies instead.

For example, in "Curse of the Nornbear," Jora is present but doesn't fill a party slot, and is only unlocked as a hero when you're done. If you repeat the quest with Jora as a hero, the one in your party has the generic Norn Warrior label.

There are some exceptions with secondary quests (going back to Ascalon with Gwen, Xandra's quest after you unlock her in the tournament, etc.,) but EotN is far less in love with this idea than Nightfall.

**Marty Silverblade** · Apr 07, 2010, 06:40 AM // 06:40

/notsigned. It's part of the story. Will it really kill you to run the mission with a hero you don't usually use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacobbs

Case in point: Doing Grand Court in Nightfall is no biggie, but I hate the fact that you are essentially limited to 7 people because SOMEONE has to bring Tahlkora.

Unless you weren't planning on running a Monk, I don't see how this is a problem. Do you insist on having a full human group for each mission? H/H is better than people unless you actually know those people have an IQ greater than 4.

Kook~NBK~ · Apr 07, 2010, 08:03 AM // 08:03

/not signed

Take some time to sort out a build for the required hero that will be an asset to the party instead of a detriment. (Easier said than done, since the AI isn't all that "intelligent," I know)

Ariovist Lynxkind · Apr 07, 2010, 09:53 AM // 09:53

/signed

But I would probably go by the 'mandatory first time, optional after' idea. EotN has shown you can go through missions and still have chars appear in cutscenes after, and it still telling the story fine.

I do admit, though, in the case of some like Poghan Passage and Kondor Crossroads you really need at least for them to be an ally, to me except the odd comment here and there the mandatory characters usually add nothing to the mission as a whole.

#Dismantle

reaper with no name · Apr 07, 2010, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Honestly, I see it as simply being an additional challenge for the mission. Kind of like environmental effects.

I wouldn't mind Barrage's compromise, however (though I think it might be hard to implement due to the problems arising from people who have and haven't done the mission before partying together).

MagmaRed · Apr 07, 2010, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Adds to the story, and although I am annoyed by it for certain situations, I think it should stay. I never use melee heroes or hench, as the AI for them sucks. Yet I have to use Koss and Melonni for a few missions. Yes, it removes a slot for a person to join the team, but the story lacks without that, and it does teach you more about those classes and how to use them.

/unsigned

Ariovist Lynxkind · Apr 08, 2010, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Okay, here is one thing I dont get:

How does the story lack without taking certain heros? In EotN you dont have to take any particular hero for any of the missions, yet it doesnt take away from the story, as they are still involved in the cut scenes. There is some bonus dialogue for taking certain heroes into certain missions, but it does not hurt nor harm the story.

For most of the missions in NF, this could apply as well. I mean, for most of them, you have to take a hero along but they barely affect the mission outside of the cut scenes. I can only think of about 4 missions where you really need the heros in the mission, and that is Pogahn Passage (Margrid wanting the Diadem), Kodonur Crossroads to a degree (Zhed and the Centaurs) Moddok Crevice (Need Dunk for the bonus) and Dasha Vestibule (the dialogue between Margrid and Goren). Other than those, the heros aren't that influential in the missions

Coverticus · Apr 08, 2010, 04:15 PM // 16:15

First up, I think ANet learnt from NF when they tackled EoTN - any NPC required for the mission actually tags along as a seperate ally (Jora, Livia, Gadd etc), therefore allowing you the full complement of 3 heroes and hench (or a full 8 man team).

When NF first came out, I remember this being somewhat of a gripe that you were forced into taking a particular hero along for the ride. But people got used to it (even taking Melonni along for Jokanur in 4 man HM

). I agree that it does indeed require you to place a little thought into playing with classes you might not normally be used to but, seeing NF is as old as it is now, realistically you can breeze through all of these with H/HH (even in HM) without really being hindered by the forced addition.

Also, think of all the dialogue the majority of the missions have for the respective hero in the party - its part of the game, part of the storyline.

I've also had this discussion in-game/alliance before - people QQd because they couldn't run their favourite triple necro team and thus struggled/failed.

Therefore unsigned.

MagmaRed · Apr 08, 2010, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coverticus

I've also had this discussion in-game/alliance before - people QQd because they couldn't run their favourite triple necro team and thus struggled/failed.

Therefore unsigned.

You know, I wanted to say it, but bit my tongue. I'm glad someone else saw it and said it. I HATE using melee heroes or hench. Yet I have no trouble getting Jennur's Horde, Jokanur Diggings, etc. done using Koss/Melonni. I know how to make use of them when I have to, just prefer not to. But I also know many people depend on the 'gimmick' builds of Sabway or Discordway and can't figure out how to assemble a capable team without them. Leaving this requirement in the game is a good thing, as it will make people learn more about the game and how to play it. Sure, some people will still fail to learn, but most people will at least gain some understanding of other classes and team builds by being forced to use a specific hero.

Mintha Syl · Apr 11, 2010, 02:24 PM // 14:24

I personally hate Koss, and so taking him with me, and I feel like taking certain heroes really limits my strategy in making a party, even if I always use H/H.
But in my opinion this is a good thing, an added difficulty that's part of the mission itself, just like every other aspect of the mission. Yes, it's part of the storyline. When in EotN you complete a primary without certain heroes and then you find them in the cutscenes it makes me say: what??they didn't come with me, they popped up from nowhere and they don't even deserve (metaphorically speaking) to have some merit for finishing it. And, also, I hate when, to carry a character relevant in the plot you have to keep him alive and babysitt him without having no control on what he does (Rurik etc.). In NF the relevant char is phisically with you and really helping, and that makes you feel more part of the story. And I say really helping if you put some effort in making him decent and useful, including that in the mission strategy.

/unsigned

drkn · Apr 11, 2010, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

This might be difficult to implement at this stage, though, because a team of nine would need an encounter balanced differently than a party of eight, or it would be too easy. So without having implemented this from the beginning, it's not a perfect solution.

make that ally just a follower. no useful skills, no real damage. especially if unkillable - just an add for the story, not the gameplay.

Quote:

You know, I wanted to say it, but bit my tongue. I'm glad someone else saw it and said it. I HATE using melee heroes or hench. Yet I have no trouble getting Jennur's Horde, Jokanur Diggings, etc. done using Koss/Melonni. I know how to make use of them when I have to, just prefer not to. But I also know many people depend on the 'gimmick' builds of Sabway or Discordway and can't figure out how to assemble a capable team without them.

i don't have problems with doing any mission HM h/h either, even with Koss, Melonni, Tahlkora, Dunkoro or Zhed. or even Morgahn, usually the least useful hero for me.
i don't run discordway all the time with no knowledge of the game. in fact, i started to use discord after beating all campaigns in HM, only to speed up the process of filling the herobooks in EotN. it's much faster to discord DD than do it balanced h/h way.
yet still, i don't really get why NF requires certain heroes. EotN somehow could avoid that and it's still playable, the story isn't worse or lacky just because you don't have to bring a certain hero for a certain main quest. NF would be fine without that requirement as well.