Curse

Rikimaru · May 04, 2010, 03:22 PM // 15:22

There are a lot of problems with the way combos work.
They remove flexibility and active player skill, they make it far too easy to completely screw over an Assassin's offense, and they limit build creativity/options among other issues.

My suggestion is pretty simple; remove the hard requirement on having to perform the last piece of a combo for the next to be able to hit, and instead add some sort of cost for using an attack out of place, such as increased energy cost, increased recharge, or maybe exhaustion.
Then you could use certain attacks out of place as they are needed, but it would be impractical to do it regularly for fractured combos or attack spamming.
The out of place attacks could also possibly not count as lead/offhand/dual for the sake of combos, so that if you try to follow it with the next piece in the combo the extra cost will be there as well.

Please either post suggestions to improve this idea or your own idea of how to improve combos.

jazilla · May 04, 2010, 03:40 PM // 15:40

My suggestion is to keep Assassin's the way they are. All classes really have this kind of thing to think about to a certain extent. A Warrior who is using Sever Artery->Gash runs into the same problem. Monk removes the bleeding and Gash doesn't do what it's supposed to do. A Mesmer uses 2 hexes and 1 gets removed and then they try and use Accumulated Pain and the target receives no Deep Wound. I could go on and on. Part of what makes this game tick is being able to disrupt your enemies flow of combat. You could argue your point for every class and then all we have is a pure damage fest and you might as well just leave us with weapon attacks.

Magragoc · May 04, 2010, 03:44 PM // 15:44

That's the price assassins pay for bringing monstrous DPS to the table. If you don't pay attention and just mash 1-2-3-4 as fast as you can even if the target throws up Guardian, you deserve to blow your combo. Assassins just deal too much armor-ignoring damage in a very short period of time to allow them much more flexibility.

How is an assassin completely screwed, moreso than a warrior? They're both affected by Blind, but the assassin has excellent condition removal built into his class. Blocking stances? That's the sort of thing you pay attention to and either switch targets or use one of the anti-block skills that warriors and assassins both have. Does it blow a chain if you're not paying attention? Yes, but it's the same for a warrior blowing his adrenaline.

In the end, assassin skills having such huge +damage numbers is supposedly balanced around having to work for it: By putting together a chain. If you remove that requirement, you just make already powerful skills overbearing.

Lillium · May 04, 2010, 04:00 PM // 16:00

IDK about removing any hard req's... Sure there's not much no flexibility for PvE daggers, but what is there works passably enough. PvP I can't say, but I'm sure anything remotely buffing chains would be OP'd and some.

What I would like to see is to not get an auto-miss every time you accidentally slip or lag and hit the wrong attack skill.

It's not that hard to just not apply the extra damage or whatever the attack effects are, and if a warrior hits a skill he doesn't have the adrenaline for nothing is penalized. He just gets an annoying sound and a red message in his face. Even little numbers beat yellow letters, particularly when you can crit on those little numbers and keep your enchants up, get energy, get healing, etc. That's up there with aftercast for failed mechanics.

MagmaRed · May 04, 2010, 04:48 PM // 16:48

I would agree on one condition, and that doesn't exist. If there were no options for creating combos, then I would agree, but there are several options available. The standard is of course Lead->Off-hand->Dual, but you can go straight to an Off-hand by using things like an enchantment (Golden Pheonix), a hex (Black Spider), knockdowns (Falling Spider), or Palm Strike. And you can skip the Off-hand by using Exhausting Assault. And there are also skills that count as a Lead attack but do not have the same function (Iron Palm).

True, some builds can be disrupted easily by a block, or blind, or various hexes or enchantment removal, etc. But that is a good thing. There are also many builds that can avoid those things (some skills cannot be blocked for example). I just don't see a problem with the dagger skills in general. Some maybe need to be buffed or nerfed, but the system itself is fine. May not be what everyone wants, but I like it myself. I shows a bit more interaction than other things. A Warrior can use any skill he wants to do damage, in any order (outside of a select few like Gash or Axe Rake/Twist). But an Assassin has to know what the skills he has will do, how they do it, and when they can do it. In short, I like this because it makes the Assassin require a better knowledge of the game and build.

Zahr Dalsk · May 04, 2010, 05:11 PM // 17:11

The problem with combos is that the best one is by far to just go for rapid death blossom spam.

There are loads of skills there... but no matter what you take, you're reducing the efficiency of your attacking.

Tenebrae · May 04, 2010, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Youll have to change a lot of stuff to balance that and you are trying to fix something thats not broken pal , soz but /notsigned like hell . Chain combo system is fine and balanced imo.

Rikimaru · May 04, 2010, 07:54 PM // 19:54

There are big things wrong with combos. You can stop an assassin from doing anything but auto-attack for the next minute or so just by catching their lead attack with Diversion. You can screw them over for a bad but reasonable amount of time just by tossing on something simple and often spammable like Shield Bash/Riposte/Deadly Riposte/Auspicious Parry, etc. And in PvP, unless you take Way of the Assassin or use the few half-second attacks, the attack skills are slow enough to be hit with an interruption, many of which can create the same issue as Diversion of making you useless for the next minute or so.
And that would just stop them from likely hitting your lead! Even with attack speed boosts or fast attack skills all they have to do is throw it at you when you start and they'll still block out some part of your combo.

And don't even try telling me we can just stop attacking when someone throws a disabling hex like Diversion on us. Why don't you actually try memorizing every hex icon in the game and catching one of those specific hexes in time to stop yourself, or not dying when you stop ten feet away from someone to read every hex that gets thrown on you.
There's still no stopping an interrupt thrown into your attack.

Rugar · May 04, 2010, 08:14 PM // 20:14

/notsigned

Combos are the entire purpose of the assassin. They need counters just like every other class.

MagmaRed · May 04, 2010, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

There are big things wrong with combos. You can stop an assassin from doing anything but auto-attack for the next minute or so just by catching their lead attack with Diversion. You can screw them over for a bad but reasonable amount of time just by tossing on something simple and often spammable like Shield Bash/Riposte/Deadly Riposte/Auspicious Parry, etc. And in PvP, unless you take Way of the Assassin or use the few half-second attacks, the attack skills are slow enough to be hit with an interruption, many of which can create the same issue as Diversion of making you useless for the next minute or so.
And that would just stop them from likely hitting your lead! Even with attack speed boosts or fast attack skills all they have to do is throw it at you when you start and they'll still block out some part of your combo.

And don't even try telling me we can just stop attacking when someone throws a disabling hex like Diversion on us. Why don't you actually try memorizing every hex icon in the game and catching one of those specific hexes in time to stop yourself, or not dying when you stop ten feet away from someone to read every hex that gets thrown on you.
There's still no stopping an interrupt thrown into your attack.

That sounds more like "I don't know how to play well". Sure, Diversion on a Lead Attack can make you unable to do much damage, but not all builds use only 1 Lead, not all builds require a Lead, and not all players ignore hexes. Diversion is an easy hex to avoid if you pay attention, as it has a long cast time, and short duration. So you just have to wait a few seconds to use that Lead Attack if you get hit with Diversion. Very few skills disable a skill, and there are ways to prevent that. Complete prevention means those skills become useless and people will ask to have them buffed. Interrupts are easy to work around. For instance, you get hit with Clumsiness and have your Lead Attack interrupted. Big deal, you took some damage, but can use that Lead again in a short time. Get hit with Clumsiness on your Off-hand? The Lead still hit, so just wait to use the Off-hand again. Does it hurt your damage? Yes, but it doesn't kill it. And not many Rangers will hit an attack skill with Distracting Shot regularly, so it isn't a total waste of damage.

Learn how to deal with interrupts and hexes and your problems will become fewer. The problem is not with attack chains, but your ability to deal with counters.

Rikimaru · May 04, 2010, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Ugh.. I guess that was my fault for apparently getting lead into a troll; from that last comment you clearly don't even play an assassin, and you still say stuff like "don't suck".
Anyway, I'm not stupid enough to continue this argument anymore, it's clearly not going anywhere.

Puebert · May 04, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

The problem with combos is that the best one is by far to just go for rapid death blossom spam.

There are loads of skills there... but no matter what you take, you're reducing the efficiency of your attacking.

I'm quoting you just so you know I love your avatar.

The way I understand your suggestion is: "death blossom causes you to lose 10 energy or some other random negative effect if used out of order". If you just take death blossom you have an additional one or two slots you can use to nullify the effect, which means you can just get to db faster.

/notsigned.

Rikimaru · May 04, 2010, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puebert

I'm quoting you just so you know I love your avatar.

The way I understand your suggestion is: "death blossom causes you to lose 10 energy or some other random negative effect if used out of order". If you just take death blossom you have an additional one or two slots you can use to nullify the effect, which means you can just get to db faster.

/notsigned.

Arguments for the sake of arguments. What else should I have expected from GuildWarsGuru? I might just have to wash my hands of this thread...
I never said "using an attack out of order adds 5 energy cost". For all you know my suggestion could make it cost 25 energy each to you use DB out of order, it could bump the recharge to 15/20 seconds completely removing the ability to spam it, or you could use it like 4-5 times before being completely unable to do anything from exhaustion.
Or, hell, they could fix imbalances in the attacks as well, since this would have to be part of a big Assassin skill pass anyway.

Puebert · May 04, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Arguments for the sake of arguments? No, reasons for why I didn't sign.

You're right, it could have been 25. I had to guess because you didn't put a number in your original post. If you add exhaustion or a 15-20 second recharge, I would rather my attack was blocked since I could just try again in 5 seconds, or switch to a new target.

Gill Halendt · May 04, 2010, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magragoc

That's the price assassins pay for bringing monstrous DPS to the table. If you don't pay attention and just mash 1-2-3-4 as fast as you can even if the target throws up Guardian, you deserve to blow your combo. Assassins just deal too much armor-ignoring damage in a very short period of time to allow them much more flexibility.

How is an assassin completely screwed, moreso than a warrior? They're both affected by Blind, but the assassin has excellent condition removal built into his class. Blocking stances? That's the sort of thing you pay attention to and either switch targets or use one of the anti-block skills that warriors and assassins both have. Does it blow a chain if you're not paying attention? Yes, but it's the same for a warrior blowing his adrenaline.

In the end, assassin skills having such huge +damage numbers is supposedly balanced around having to work for it: By putting together a chain. If you remove that requirement, you just make already powerful skills overbearing.

This.

12 chars with sugar on top and a cherry.

Del · May 04, 2010, 11:01 PM // 23:01

assassins would be pretty imba if anet made it so insanely easy that they wouldn't even have to have the common sense to not eat diversion/attempt chains through blind/block/etc. it's this way for a reason, asking for anet to further simplify an already extremely simple class is just asinine. if you don't want to get screwed over by getting an attack skill interrupted, play warrior or dervish.

MagmaRed · May 05, 2010, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

Ugh.. I guess that was my fault for apparently getting lead into a troll; from that last comment you clearly don't even play an assassin, and you still say stuff like "don't suck".
Anyway, I'm not stupid enough to continue this argument anymore, it's clearly not going anywhere.

I disagree with you, so I'm a troll? Your reason for wanting things changed (from what I can tell) is that the counters to Assassin dagger damage is over powered. I don't think it is, and stated some reasons why. If you don't think the counters are overpowered, then why do you think the dagger attack chains need to be changed? Getting interrupted or diverted is a counter to lots of builds. Why should dagger attacks get some change because they can't handle a counter for them? Perhaps you think Blinding Surge should be Smiter's Booned because it prevents melee from doing any damage?

Rikimaru · May 05, 2010, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Just forget about my suggestion. I know it wasn't a great one, the whole point here was to get a bunch of different people making suggestions and hopefully a good solution could be created.
But the joke's on me, 'cause this is the Guru! Where people mindlessly refute everything and make arguments just for the fun of it.

Combos are not complicated right now, they're mind-numbingly simple.
What I'm trying to suggest is to make them more flexible and allow more skillful usage of them, not less.
And any change made to Assasssin combos does not automatically make them stronger.

Del · May 05, 2010, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

Just forget about my suggestion. I know it wasn't a great one, the whole point here was to get a bunch of different people making suggestions and hopefully a good solution could be created.
But the joke's on me, 'cause this is the Guru! Where people mindlessly refute everything and make arguments just for the fun of it.

Combos are not complicated right now, they're mind-numbingly simple.
What I'm trying to suggest is to make them more flexible and allow more skillful usage of them, not less.
And any change made to Assasssin combos does not automatically make them stronger.

they are how they are because sins do an shitload of damage. making them usable out of sequence is just going to make a brainless class even less difficult to play, as it was said earlier, diversion, d-shot, etc are means of countering it, if you just want them changed because you can't deal with counters, don't ask anet to make it easier for you. sins are already easy enough to use that there's no real excuse to fail hard enough for posting this thread to look like a good idea. and don't get butthurt because your bad idea got shot down, it's a pretty terrible idea, don't act whiny because no one finds this idea anywhere near as good as you seem to think it is. and explain how making skills usable out of sequence makes them take more skill to play?

Stealth Bomberman · May 05, 2010, 04:03 AM // 04:03

If you've played sin long enough, you'd know the 3 main things associated with these little demons.

1. Interuption- exhausting asault and knocklock builds are by far some of the most dangerous skills u can use against casters of all shapes and sizes.

2. DPS- conjure x + way of the sin + fast recharging chain w/ DB spam or seeping wound builds are pretty nasty. not to mention assasscasting is still a threat.

3. Placement on field- If you're smart, you'll know when and when not to engage in a fight. Running head first to a team in AB will more than likely put a huge target on your head. Mesmers and blindbots don't tend to target sins if they don't know they're there amiright?

I agree the sin needs some tweaking since it is a very litmited class compared to warriors n dervs. Hell dervs aren't all that great either outside of WS. You change the way the sin works, you kill the whole class.