Curse

The Josip · Jul 15, 2010, 10:51 AM // 10:51

So using your logic it would be ok to have this skill in the game:

PvE-only skill: "All monsters in the zone die." 5 energy, 5 sec recharge

This logically follows from your answer to #3 and #2. Logically follows from #3 because it shows you wouldn't be against it, and logically follows from #2 because it shows you would be *for* it, since the only way for everyone to be able to complete hard mode is having this skill. Mental abilities of "everyone" just aren't that good for everyone to complete HM without this skill, just as some would be decimated if degen of poison was, gasps, 4 pips instead of 3 (for example).

Tenebrae · Jul 15, 2010, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

<impressive amounts of /rage offtopic

Well the thing is that he/she has a point. Degen is a fixed health loss per tick so if players are always ( no matter NM or HM ) 500-600hp and mobs in HM have more armor and more HP and more att points so its degen hexes are hell better ..... yeah , mobs will benefit more of that suggestion.

Is it something to be scared of ? naaaaaah , not really. There are many paranoid ppl and even there are some areas ( a VERY few of them ) in wich a single mob group would be able to stack -20 pips of degen .... hex/condt removal and wise positioning > them and its degen.

Mintha Syl · Jul 15, 2010, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

So using your logic it would be ok to have this skill in the game:

PvE-only skill: "All monsters in the zone die." 5 energy, 5 sec recharge

This logically follows from your answer to #3 and #2. Logically follows from #3 because it shows you wouldn't be against it, and logically follows from #2 because it shows you would be *for* it, since the only way for everyone to be able to complete hard mode is having this skill. Mental abilities of "everyone" just aren't that good for everyone to complete HM without this skill, just as some would be decimated if degen of poison was, gasps, 4 pips instead of 3 (for example).

I think that skill would rather apply your logic since it's not very different from putting h/h to do all the work. Either ways you're not playing. My suggestion was to play the game. Don't distort things.

RedStar · Jul 15, 2010, 11:05 AM // 11:05

I don't have a problem with PvE (except maybe DoA, but it's because it's the only thing I never did, but let's not go off topic). But you see, some do have a problem.

You want to remove the degen cap to use conditions to " deal nice damage in PvE" and to "watch the monsters crumble".

So let's see how much degen you will cause if you manage to apply all conditions on an enemy 3 + 7 + 4 + 4 = 18 (22 with the helps on ranger spirits).
Disease is applied using necros skills or if you waste a PvE slot. Burning, bleeding and poison aren't really hard to apply. But they aren't really hard to remove either.

Now for the fun of it, let's imagine you and some other mesmers manage to put ALL the mesmer's degeneration hexes on someone : 58 degen, 116 dmg/sec. 10 hexes, 9 from illusion, 3 are elites and one belongs to domination. So right now you'll need at least 3 mesmers to achieve that, of course let's say they are me/mo, so they can also heal (if they still have enough energy). Oh and none of those spells are AoE, but some have another good effect like Migraine.

Let's continue with necros : 68 degen, 136 dmg.sec. 16 hexes from all the attributes with 5 elites, and some of the spells have a requirement (like the wells). So you need at least 5 necros, they can be n/rit so they can also heal if they have enough energy. Unlike the mesmer's hexes, except the wells, 4 are AoE.

So if we manage to have a team of 5 necros, 3 mesmers, (team A) some having ranger as a second profession, and let's say we have enough energy and enough time to put all of those hexes and conditions on a fleshy target, we will get 148 degen, 296 dmg/sec.

Okay now let's go on the other side.
Let's take a not too easy, not too hard dungeon : Vloxen Excavations, in HM of course. Let's fight a typical group of the dungeon : the stone summits group, with mesmers, warriors, monks, ele, necro, devirsh and ritualist (of course such a group rarely has only one monk or one mesmer or one necro). The mesmers are the only one capable of degen, causing only 11 pips with 2 quick recharge hexes, 1 more pip than with the cap is not a problem. Let's see the fabulous team A fight them : the conditions they send will come right back to them with the necro's draw condition and plague signet. The monk's SoR will counter 10 pips blalblablablabla, you get it : team A dies, and don't manage to kill a single foe.

Right now the point is : removing the degen cap won't help you win.
Now the second point : removing the degen cap will help you lose.

Charr Hexreaper in HM : 4 skills : 20 degen and can quickly get in on 3 or 4 team members.

I could go on and on to find you monsters to prove to you that removing the cap would be more useful to them than to players. Of course degen won't suddenly be OP and areas won't suddenly become extremely hard to do, just more annoying. But why change something that has nothing wrong with it ? You want to shoot a burning poison arrow that causes bleeding ? With the cap removed you'll do 14 degen...you don't absolutely need those 8hp/sec do you ?...
Most of the hexes that cause degen are either not used, or used because of their other effect, not because the degen cap is too low, because those skills are simply bad in PvE (and PvP maybe, but it's been a while since I really played in PvP so I won't speak for the PvP players), I mean who takes Reaper's Mark or Recurring Insecurity ? There are better skills to use... Once again, you should have followed what zelgadissan said in his first post.

tl,dr : Removing the cap won't change a lot of things.

A little bit off topic : HM isn't easy for everyone. I still find the Charr Homeland extremely annoying. So let's stop with the "everything is easy, QQ more, go play easy mode, hey to make mobs actually a challenge for me let's allow them to have 5 elites and to have immunity to some damage, like for example Charrs love fire so they should be immune to all fire damages, and monsters in the UW should be immune to necro's and some ritualist's spells because they live in Greth land." (Yes I may have over exaggerated some things xD)

One last thing :

Quote:

Mental abilities of "everyone" just aren't that good for everyone to complete HM without this skill, just as some would be decimated if degen of poison was, gasps, 4 pips instead of 3 (for example).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wiki

Poison is a condition that causes 4 pips of health degeneration on a character. The visual indication of poison is a revolving ring of green mist around a character's waist. The health bar for the affected character also turns pale green.

It seems they have already been decimated

.

The Josip · Jul 15, 2010, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Degen is a fixed health loss per tick so if players are always ( no matter NM or HM ) 500-600hp and mobs in HM have more armor and more HP and more att points so its degen hexes are hell better ..... yeah , mobs will benefit more of that suggestion.

I get where you're coming from, but tell me this: do monsters benefit more from being able to inflict +1 degen, or from 33% faster attack speed? Do you know how much time needs to pass for degen to reach the damage of just one extra hit a melee monster can do, or caster monster with a spell? You can kill half of the dungeon by that time.

We can debate this all day - the point is - anyone who thinks that ANY kind of buff to monsters in HM PvE would "imbalance" the game and make monsters "impossibly difficult", is on drugs.

Never in the history of GW was killing monsters in PvE easier, with minimal effort. Even using overpowered Ursan you had to actually *play*. Nowdays you don't, you can watch tv or browse the websites and press C+space.

Yes, someone can say nerfing player damage is the way to go - but buffing monsters is just the other side of the coin. Either way, buffing degen for instance would not make players stronger - because degen is so bad that no one uses it, and even if it was buffed people would rarely use it - but still at least sometimes to remember these skills exist. Monsters, well who cares about monsters, they are far too weak anyway. There's something wrong with game difficulty level if at the highest difficulty level you can do 99% of things by not playing. I don't know a single game I played in my life where something like that is possible. Not a single one. Not even at the easiest diffuculty level. But this online game, this online game has to cater to the lowest common denominator so that 'everyone can finish HM'. That's I guess what you get by puting many people at the same place, together. Everything goes down. Oh poor World. No wonder it's going down. Too many people at the same place.

RedStar · Jul 15, 2010, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Never in the history of GW was killing monsters in PvE easier, with minimal effort. Even using overpowered Ursan you had to actually *play*. Nowdays you don't, you can watch tv or browse the websites and press C+space.

So you are saying you can breeze through every dungeon, every elite zones. Doing UW takes more than 5 minutes because you can only run that fast ? You basically have hundreds of ectos and armbraces, and if you don't it's because it's so easy to have them, you don't want to waste your time to get them, right ?
Then like Mintha said : why are you still playing that game if it's way too easy for you ? You play to kill monsters with degen ?

The Josip · Jul 15, 2010, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedStar

So you are saying you can breeze through every dungeon, every elite zones.

No, I am saying that that HM gameplay and posting in the forum should require minimum abilities.

So when I type "99%..." it should be read as "99%" and not as "every area in the game".

But I rest my case.

RedStar · Jul 15, 2010, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

So when I type "99%..." it should be read as "99%" and not as "every area in the game".

Quote:

Btw that thing you just typed is typical defense mechanism, but I am not interested in it.

As childish as what I did is, you have to admit that maybe you should tone down the "I'm all mighty" stuff.

But you want to be picky ? Fine.

Around 200 areas in that game. 1% = 2-3 areas. Let's ignore the WIK quests, the 5 elite areas and some dungeons and see you "watch tv or browse the websites and press C+space" while vanquishing areas like Arbor Bay or Sacnoth Valley. (I took out the other things because I'm sure you would have come with some sort of excuse..)

Cuilan · Jul 15, 2010, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedStar

In the hands of mobs, degen is annoying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Degen is at best 20hp per second.

A physical can deal up to 80-120 damage unbuffed every 1.5 seconds and even more often when buffed and with IAS.

If you can't handle degen in PvE, then you either have no heal or damage mitigation of any sort. Try PvX after you look up how the game works on either of the Guild Wars wiki sites or from better players. Hard mode foes will gladly whack you for hundreds at a time if they could.

RedStar · Jul 15, 2010, 12:13 PM // 12:13

I just said it's annoying. Not annoying like a group of 20 wind riders, but annoying like a fly flying near you ear : it won't kill you, but you want it gone. Except the degen in Urgoz...that can be painful.

Morphy · Jul 15, 2010, 02:07 PM // 14:07

So let me get this straight, there are people that are against this because it would make PvE harder?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Snow Bunny · Jul 15, 2010, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Guys.

Screw all this math.

More degen is more powercreep. More powercreep is bad. Thus, degen is bad.

Good? ok? OK? Ok.

Morphy · Jul 15, 2010, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Guys.

Screw all this math.

More degen is more powercreep. More powercreep is bad. Thus, degen is bad.

Good? ok? OK? Ok.

Explain why powercreep is bad in PvE.

Xiaquin · Jul 15, 2010, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

So let me get this straight, there are people that are against this because it would make PvE harder?

The consequences to a removal of a degen cap would hit farmers (not that I care but it's true) but most importantly it pressures healers the most. You remove the ceiling and all you are going to do is make their jobs harder. Everyone else will just demand they keep up, and I, for one, think this game needs more that are willing to heal, not to drive players away from the job. I'm sick of waiting around for them to start a mission as it is.

The Josip · Jul 15, 2010, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Another great argument: "The healers would have to heal"

Imagine that. *gasps*

As I said, GW population is at this point spoiled by C+spacing. Any suggestion that will make people have to actually *gasp* play the game will be rejected.

Imagine - healers who have to heal!

I heard LOTRO is going free to play this autumn. I wonder if healers there C+space or, actually, heal.

Lanier · Jul 15, 2010, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Explain why powercreep is bad in PvE.

powercreep is bad b/c it makes a few skills/builds/whatever powerful while leaving the vast majority of them not. Less powercreep = more viable options. That said, buffs do not automatically increase powercreep. Overpowering "stuff" or excessive buffs is what increases powercreep. If a slight tweak is made to an underpowered thing making that underpowered thing only slightly more powerful (ex: making the regen/degen cap a few pips larger/smaller), then that is not advancing powercreep because there are still plenty more powerful options available.

Del · Jul 15, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

powercreep is bad b/c it makes a few skills/builds/whatever powerful while leaving the vast majority of them not. Less powercreep = more viable options. That said, buffs do not automatically increase powercreep. Overpowering "stuff" or excessive buffs is what increases powercreep. If a slight tweak is made to an underpowered thing making that underpowered thing only slightly more powerful (ex: making the regen/degen cap a few pips larger/smaller), then that is not advancing powercreep because there are still plenty more powerful options available.

Minor or major it's still being made more powerful, and things being made more powerful= power creep.

Shayne Hawke · Jul 15, 2010, 10:39 PM // 22:39

I'm going to post under the impression that the OP and everyone else here thinks that C-spacing PvE is not a good idea. I will pair that with the following quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

* Wouldn't you want your Poison Arrow or Apply Poison ranger to deal nice damage in PvE? Not as much damage as Barrage, but at least decent enough so that it's playable?

* To cast Tainted Flesh on your team and watch the monsters crumble?

If you remove the degeneration cap, then an arsenal of such skills essentially becomes a fire-and-forget way of playing the game, launching off a few -7s and -8s here and there, and then having your team turtle up against anything that might still pose a threat until it eventually collapses. I don't see that as anything better than the current target-and-be-ignorant method of playing PvE, so the only thing which we've accomplished is adding more ways to turn everything in the game into easymodo. That's bad, and I'm not supporting it.

RedStar · Jul 15, 2010, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Well you really really want that degen cap removed but why ?

Let's refer to your OP :

Quote:

Wouldn't you want your Poison Arrow or Apply Poison ranger to deal nice damage in PvE

Already answered in a previous post

Quote:

To cast Tainted Flesh on your team and watch the monsters crumble

It's only going to be useful against fleshy melee because the mobs backline rarely go "hug" their melee fighters. You can find a much better elite for a necro.

Quote:

Wouldn't you want Mursaat to brutally kill you if you're not infused, just like in good old days?

Yay let's change something that has nothing wrong with it so I can get a 30 degen from spectral agony if I'm dumb enough to not wear infused armor in one of the 10 areas Mursaats are in. Oh and the "just like in the good old days" part : they killed with direct damage, because since the "good old days" the degen cap has always been the same.

Anyway every arguments in the world won't convince you that there is nothing wrong with the cap. You just keep answering everything with "You don't want it because it's going to make your game harder".... I don't want it, because currently it's a pointless change.

Xiaquin · Jul 16, 2010, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Another great argument: "The healers would have to heal"

As I said, GW population is at this point spoiled by C+spacing. Any suggestion that will make people have to actually *gasp* play the game will be rejected.

Your trolling is starting to annoy me. Do you always fail at engaging in meaningful discussion, or is your only goal, after dropping grandiose suggestions, to just flame the crap out of anyone who doesn't agree with you?

The results in a greater demand for better healers are more failing pugs, more frustration and just overall reinforces GW as a game run from the back-line. I'm sick of the focus on a healer, it does not a good game make. You can run through almost anything with a sub-par party, as long as 1-2 reliable members are refilling the red bars.

This idea is rubbish. It amplifies the problem with dedicated healing, and is exactly why the trinity is getting tossed out in the upcoming sequel. You are only thinking about this one-dimensionally.