Curse

FlamingMetroid · Apr 07, 2008, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by System_Crush

While some might only invite people in full 15k armor sets, not e4y1 cares that much about ePeen.

I personally don't care about epeen either, unless however, if it interferes with the efficiency of my party. Fire Magic Sylvaris would NOT get into any parties I'm leading, because to me fun is pwning an area as fast and efficiently as possible with a party perzactly geared toward pwning said area. And I wouldn't expect to be let into a group if I wasn't the race geared toward the spec I would be running either, I wouldn't undercut someone else's ability to complete an area just because I wasn't running the spec I should be.

Drake Eleric · Apr 08, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Edited it to make it more clear, and i noticed i forgot Dervs, not like we need them or anything

j/k

Cebe · Apr 08, 2008, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Stickied for now.

Keep it clean, people.

Drake Eleric · Apr 14, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by [M]agna_[C]arta

@Metroid
-What does QFET mean^ ^?, Sorry^_^.

@Azazel
-Nope adding more Energy and Health would do same problem.
Other Races would be forced to go Caster while other Fighter, only difference is it won't affect build it'll now affect Profession Choosing.

Races should only have Different Storylines, Racial Skills, Unique Appearance and Different Damage Weaknesses.

Like Sylvaris are resistant to Earth but they are vunreble to Fire.
Or Humans are Ballanced to all types of Damage, No Better Resistance nor Vunrebility.

Wouldn't that cause just as much elitism? No matter what you do, if you introdue races it will cause elitism. I propose you should at least make the stuff causing elitism lore-based. Of course though, I have no idea what i'm talking about, so please disregard this post if you see fit. Good day to you all.

Greyhart · May 26, 2008, 08:55 AM // 08:55

ohh i can't resist this thread.

basics

PvE character has infinite levels (or extremely high cap). But no ability to reallocate attribute points (adds to roleplaying).
PvP all characters are set to the same level e.g. 20. But have the ability to reallocate attribute points.

There are no professions.

All characters have a set health and energy level that does not increase with level. i.e. a level one character will have 250 health and 20 energy. A level 100 character would have 250 base health and 20 base energy.

Every level gained gives you X attribute points.

As now you get to take 8 skills into the game.

Attributes

Attributes are divided into 2 types. For ease of understanding I will call them Primary attributes and skill attributes.

Attributes have a hard cap in the amount of points you can put into them. i.e. like in GW you can't have more than 12 points in any one attribute.

Everyone starts with all the attributes possible to get in the game (but obviously no attribute points). However skill attributes might be obtained by quests.

Primary Attributes

These are like the primary attributes are now (they do not include things like Soul Reaping or anything that gives energy or health when X happens). They adjust some underlying calculation in the game.

There are no skills connected to the Primary Attributes.

Examples of Primary attributes:
Strength: Increases armor penetration
Energy Storage: increases the amount of energy.
Health: increases the amount of health
Critical Strikes: increased chance of critical strike.
Dodge: increased chance of evading melee attack.
Damage Reduction: gives a small amount of damage reduction

you could have any number of these like reduction in condition length or resistance to elements etc.

Skill Attributes

These are the attributes that we would recognize now i.e. fire magic, marksmanship, sword, axe, dagger etc.

skills are connected to these attributes. I hope I don't need to explain this any further.

Armor

Armor will have 3 statistics connected with them. AC, Health and Energy.

This would give you the option of high health and low energy or high energy and low health. Throw in the adjustment in AC for lots of choices and trade offs.

Advantages of this system
You get to decide what type of character you want. If you want to create a tank then you place points in the right skills and pick the right armor.

PvE characters get the feeling of gaining lots of power as they will be able to max out every attribute line and have ultimate flexibility in skill choice.

If you choose a skill line you don't like you don't have to restart a new character just continue to gain levels and adjust character overtime.

PvP still has to make the strategic decisions of where to place the attribute points to be most effective.

There is no need for a player to have X number characters in order to unlock skills.

The level of a character after a certain point becomes pointless as they will have maxed the attributes their character needs even if they haven't maxed all the attributes.

When they add a new campaign they only have to add a new skill attribute rather than an entire class. This should be easier to implement for the developers and requires less work.

Makes a single PvE character more self reliant as they can easily add in good healing skills or defense skills. Keeps the need for team balancing in PvP as the attributes are limited.

Alicendre · May 26, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyhart

PvE character has infinite levels (or extremely high cap). But no ability to reallocate attribute points (adds to roleplaying).
PvP all characters are set to the same level e.g. 20. But have the ability to reallocate attribute points.

Definately NO.
If PvE chars have infinite levels, that means you'll put a lot of time into them... To find out that in fact your char is builded like crap and you have to redo it, or continue without being able to join a guild because you don't have the-cookie-cutter-of-the-now?

FlamingMetroid · May 26, 2008, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyhart

There are no professions.

No.

Characters in GW need clear cut jobs and separated skill sets, or else the imba gimmicks we have now will look like nothing to what we'll have. Imagine if Sway had shadowsteps, critical strikes, and knockdown on top of everything else. Yeah I'm sure you think that with your system such an imbalanced combination would never happen, but someone would make it work, especially when were talking about the people who play GW.

Quote:

PvE character has infinite levels (or extremely high cap). But no ability to reallocate attribute points (adds to roleplaying).

Didn't see that at first, but also no. I shouldn't even have to explain this.

Greyhart · May 26, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alicendre

Definately NO.
If PvE chars have infinite levels, that means you'll put a lot of time into them... To find out that in fact your char is builded like crap and you have to redo it, or continue without being able to join a guild because you don't have the-cookie-cutter-of-the-now?

I am sorry, I don't mean this to be rude. Did you actually read the rest of the post? Or did you just read the first few lines?

In PvE you could get an effective build early on say about level 20, as you would be able to max out the required attributes. This means that there will not be the grind, but there would be reward for sticking with one character.

At high levels the character would not be uber powerful. It would have better chance of critical hits, have armor penetration. yes it would better health and energy, but health and energy would plateau and the top level could be reached relatively quickly.

If you make a mess of your character you don't need to start again. just continue to level and gain attributes points and place them into the areas that you now want to do. No need to restart at all.

In PvE at a certain level all the characters will have the same attributes because all the attributes will be maxed out. So let say at level 100 all attributes are maxed your PvE character can do anything from being a monk to being a warrior. Just put on the right armor and set up the right skill bar.

Of Course to some the uniformity at high level might not be appealing. To me however (as I like to try everything) it would be a bonus.

Yes you would spend a long time with one character but that character can do a lot more. Again I think this is an advantage as you will be playing the game once rather than repeating the same quests over and over again with different characters (which gets old fast).

FlamingMetroid · May 26, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyhart

stuff

yeah, but this means I would have to level ONE CHARACTER ALOT, which would get boring reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaallly fast, much faster than playing multiple characters.

Greyhart · May 26, 2008, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

yeah, but this means I would have to level ONE CHARACTER ALOT, which would get boring reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaallly fast, much faster than playing multiple characters.

depends on how you play really. If there is good content then leveling should be fine. If however after about 2 levels you have to stand around killing imps for three hours simply to gain a new level then yes it would be boring.

I generally don;t try to power level. I don't chase max titles either, so I don't spend a lot of time simply killing things to achieve the next title.

this though it a matter of personal taste. I like to work on one character rather than have 10 different ones (because I also like to try everything as well). this is perhaps because I play casually. What I hated was running 5 different characters though a new campaign, after the second time through it was an absolute chore.

I am willing to accept a difference of opinion based on play styles though.

Greyhart · May 26, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

No.

Characters in GW need clear cut jobs and separated skill sets, or else the imba gimmicks we have now will look like nothing to what we'll have. Imagine if Sway had shadowsteps, critical strikes, and knockdown on top of everything else. Yeah I'm sure you think that with your system such an imbalanced combination would never happen, but someone would make it work, especially when were talking about the people who play GW.

is there not already imbalance in the game as it stands? In PvP the attributes would be limited making only one or two skill lines effective, like now. It is possible now to take skills from 8 different attributes into battle but no one really does it because it would not be effective.

In PvE does it really matter if you can make a really powerful combination of skills?

regarding infinite levels. I understand the conceptual problem people might have with that, but the levels would really become meaningless after a short period of time. In fact you could remove levels all together. I only suggested the infinite levels because, if recall rightly, it has been mooted that they are considering a very high level cap or no cap at all.

FlamingMetroid · May 26, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyhart

is there not already imbalance in the game as it stands? In PvP the attributes would be limited making only one or two skill lines effective, like now. It is possible now to take skills from 8 different attributes into battle but no one really does it because it would not be effective.

[shadow walk][escape][pious assault][chilling victory][eremites attack][bulls strike][rending touch][death pact signet]
I dont need to invest points into anything here, outside of scythe + expertise, to create a super imba build with skills from multiple professions.

Quote:

In PvE does it really matter if you can make a really powerful combination of skills?

It does when it completely removes all challenge from the game.

Quote:

regarding infinite levels. I understand the conceptual problem people might have with that, but the levels would really become meaningless after a short period of time. In fact you could remove levels all together. I only suggested the infinite levels because, if recall rightly, it has been mooted that they are considering a very high level cap or no cap at all.

Based on your system, I could be a tanking, dps'ing, disabler who can set people on fire and single-handedly keep my team alive while doing so, if I level myself enough; and eventually everybody would be doing this. PvE would have no challenge, unless the players were put up against impossible or incredibly frustrating(realm of torment style) odds, which would then not be fun.

Greyhart · May 26, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

your points are valid.

But i would point out that they are flawed. This is a system for GW2 and therefore the skills are not going to be the same. Yes the skills will need to be balanced for this system, just as in GW1 the skills have to be balanced for the existing system.

as for that skill bar. Yes it looks powerful, but wouldn't blind or any melee avoiding skill counter it?

with any new system the devil is always in the details.

As for challenge. I have got the impression from what I have read (and I might well be reading into it something that isn't there) that in PvE you are not going to have teams of 8 going out on a regular basis. Rather it is going to be you and a companion only. The larger teams will be made for the very difficult areas and in certain areas a team might come together without any planning from people that happen to be in the area. This random party formation might mean that there is no dedicated monk or tank.

Given this a PvE character will have to be more self sufficient. their skill bars are going to have to include defense, offense and healing.

But on your technical point you're right the proposed system would not work with the current skills. If it is done incorrectly the game will not work it will become imbalanced and not be any fun at all.

FlamingMetroid · May 27, 2008, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyhart

as for that skill bar. Yes it looks powerful, but wouldn't blind or any melee avoiding skill counter it?

blind/ anti-melee counters regular Sway, yet it still manages to rape Halls vigorously, even when played by a less experienced team.

Quote:

with any new system the devil is always in the details.

...

If it is done incorrectly the game will not work it will become imbalanced and not be any fun at all.

Exactly, your idea is too hard to implement. KISS. It's why Guild Wars is fun.

System_Crush · May 27, 2008, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Well I agree with you Grey, GW2 will be rebalanced for itself, not so that you could copy your old builds and play on as if nothing had changed.

My suggestion is pretty similar execpt I opted to do what you do with the core attributes by using insignias.
And limited the player to having points in no more than 4 attributes at a time.

I have however made sure primaries don't have effects and replaced them with masteries, if your system has only those 8 skills for primaries I fear it may become flat and force the focus on a particular combination for each arche type, so all mages health and energy all melees health and strength all others health and critical strikes.
(Because Dodge and damage reduction only help you retain health, but are useless against conditions and degen, so Stamina would be the best overall survivability if you ask me)

What I like about GW is it's build diversity, I like experimenting with different builds way too much to give up re-speccing.

However a freebasing system(no professions just attributes) requires a lot of balancing, I fear Anet won't go there, especially with their views on PvP.
(which are pretty cool by the way, without them we wouldn't have a 8 skill bar and be just like any other MMO)

Greyhart · May 27, 2008, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

Exactly, your idea is too hard to implement. KISS. It's why Guild Wars is fun.

I can't see it being significantly more complex (but yes there would be more combinations to consider). However this is all opinion (as i am sure that neither of us has ever had to implement a system). And as opinion I understand your point.

FlamingMetroid · May 27, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyhart

I can't see it being significantly more complex (but yes there would be more combinations to consider). However this is all opinion (as i am sure that neither of us has ever had to implement a system). And as opinion I understand your point.

Yes, it would be very hard to balance because of the sheer number of combinations, and while having no experience in designing game balance, the one thing I am sure off is that our game balancer isn't exactly the best in the industry. Based of Izzy's past judgments and decisions, giving him this much to balance would be asking for a broken game.

Drake Eleric · Jun 07, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

aaje vhanli · Jul 09, 2008, 07:25 AM // 07:25

While reading thru this thread, I thought of a great deal of comments concerning the posts within but I'm too tired to properly articulate those ideas.

In short, I wouldn't like to see any of the professions we already have go but, rather, see them improved upon with a greater depth and diversity.

I have to admit, however, that I always felt there were room for a few more specifications. Chronomancer, for example, could be considered an extension of some Mesmer qualities; but how cool could it be to have a profession focused on some creative indulgences within a deeper content of such an idea?

I sympathise with the argument that the 6 core classes are basic enough to maintain balance, but I feel more strongly that the further professions in GW were far more creative than the traditional ranged, melee, healer, magic-user, etc... and this is partly what attracted me so dearly to GW in the first place.

The concept of unique classes is one that should not be taken for granted. Almost every RPG seems to carry the same core classes and I would love to see Guild Wars 2 explore a greater depth in professions than we have already seen in other games.

It's tough to know what we want in GW2 without seeing what the creative minds of aNet are fully capable of but, whatever classes we do end up with in GW2, I feel it is most important than aNet brings a greater depth to those classes and their differentiation among one another. Of course, balance is important, but I feel that it would be a narrow limited perspective to maintain that such a balance is not sustainable with a multitude of professions. In fact, it is the skills and attributes that make professions unbalanced and, since GW2 is basically a reworking of the entire system, I see that a great attention given to this system could recreate what we already have with a greater balance.

I would like to see aNet explore the most possible unique professions while giving each an equal dimensionality and sense of purpose.

Note: I add great emphasis on "unique professions" because I fail to see the point in separating different styles of swordsmanship into multiple classes (for example) when the skill options and weapons that a player chooses can be utilized in doing this. For example, one Warrior-type could have a two-handed weapon and a skill bar of Berserker-type skills while another Warrior-type could have dual-wielding and Shogun-type skills. Equally, the "Knight" section sounds like a general generic expansion on the Paragon concept. In these examples, I use the creative ideas of Phoenix Tear's first post in this thread.

Edited for spelling and grammer.

Amen Henn · Jul 21, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Demagogue-
Powerful orater, rallying a cabal of followers to do their dirty work. Usually aligned with a higher authority or acting on behalf of a 'Spiritual' authority. Their true art is that of oratory. Their very words can stir the passion of their allies or the ire of their enemies.

Tier One.) The Strategist- This specialty of this Demagogue directs the movement and flow of resources during battle. sometimes weakening one group of allies to strengthen another.

Tier Two.) The Agitator- This school of the Demagogue deals in the reckless behavior of the enemy. Basing their movement on the movement of their foes they are masters of using the enemies own tactics against them.

Tier Three.) Fomenter- The most dangerous school of Demagogue. Their fiery words incite destructive, almost reckless behavior in their allies that, if not controlled correctly, may lead to a disadvantage.

Some skill Examples-

"The Soil Is Ours!" Shout. All enemies lose 5 Energy, 5 Adrenaline, or 5 Enchantments.

Ward of Comraderie. All allies in the area of Ward of Comraderie gain 2 energy each second and strike for +12 in melee. This ward ends after 10 seconds.

Manage The Field. Skill. Target other ally and all allies within earshot of that ally gain +20 Armor against all damage sources. You and all allies within earshot lose +20 armor against all sources.

Never Say We Die! Skill. All allies attack 20% faster and gain +50 armor against all sources. All skills cost 30% more of the base damage to use.