Curse

Skye Marin · Sep 10, 2010, 07:39 PM // 19:39

There are many issues with using Paragons versus any other class. In terms of healing, defense, support, utility or damage, this profession is easily outclassed. Here are a list of specific issues and proposed changes. A full list of skill changes can be found on this page here.

1) Stackability in PvP

Many Paragon skills have been nerfed because they stack so well with other Paragon players. Full teams of paragons would play untouchable, with no solid counters (or easily counterable counters) and it just wasn't fun for the other players. This means that ideally, skills should be effective and unique, but not significantly more effective with more copies. Some Echoes have already been fixed in PvP by limiting the number of triggers possible. This should allow the skills to be improved, but not in an exploitative way.

2) Damage and Utility in PvE

In PvE, AoE is king. The Paragon should be no exception to this. All other professions have some form of effective AoE. As for utility, improving the command line with a few very strong PvE-only skills would go a long way.

Code:

PvE-only changes:

 Anthem of Envy - (PvE Only) 
6 adr, 1 cast
Chant. "For 10 seconds, all allies in earshot do +5..20% more damage with spells and attacks to foes with more than 50% health."

 "Find Their Weakness!" - (PvE Only) 
5 energy, 5 recharge
Shout. "For 10..25 seconds, whenever target ally achieves a critical hit, that attack does +10..30 damage and inflicts a Deep Wound for 2..8 seconds."

 "Go for the Eyes!" - (PvE Only) 
4 adr
Shout. "For 10 seconds, the next 1..4 attacks for each ally within earshot has an additional 30...86...100% chance to critical."

 Slayer's Spear - (PvE Only) 
5 energy, 2 recharge
Spear Attack. "Deals +5..15 damage. Can hit up to 2 other foes near your target. Inflicts deep wound (5..20 seconds) on target if none of that target's allies are near it."

3) Better utility for casters

This relates to the stackability issue, because paragons aren't casters and their skills mostly benefit attacking classes. A great opportunity for command and leadership. If a paragon can help any class, then any class would like to have a paragon on board more often.

Code:

 Hasty Refrain 
10 energy, 1 cast, 10 recharge
Echo. "For 8..16 seconds, target ally's spells recharge 10% faster for every chant or shout on that ally (maximum 5..30%). This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on that ally"

 Song of Power 
6 adr, 2 cast
Chant. "For 10 seconds, all allies in earshot each gain +0..3 to their attributes for their next 1..3 spells. Ends on each ally if they cause damage with a spell."

4) Be more user friendly

When in a GvG split or an AB battle, paragons can get low on energy. Better options should be available. There is little ability for a paragon to maintain a shout on himself, and adrenline management is better on a Warrior.

Code:

 "Make Your Time!" 
10 energy, 20 recharge
Shout. "You gain 1 strike of adrenaline for each party member within earshot (maximum 1...4...5 adrenaline). If there are less than 3..6 allies in earshot, you also gain 8..15 energy. For 15..30 seconds, your attack skills have +0..15% chance for a critical strike."

 "Lead the Way!" 
10 enegy, 5 recharge
Shout. "Target ally moves 25% faster and your paragon skills that target that ally cost 20..80% less energy for 1..6 seconds per ally in earshot (maximum 20 seconds). "

 Natural Temper 
- Increased duration to 5..20 seconds. Increased adrenaline gain to 50%.

5) Better Elite skills

Elite skills are meant to define a build or character, however the paragon has some of the least useful or interesting Elites in the game. To fix them is to fix them.

Code:

 Cruel Spear 
7 adr
Elite Spear Attack. "Deals +1..31 damage. Inflicts Deep Wound condition for 5..20 seconds."

 Stunning Strike 
8 adr, ½ cast
Elite Spear Attack. "If target is not already Dazed, deals +15..40 damage and interrupts an action. Inflicts Dazed condition (4...9...10 seconds) if target has a condition."

 Crippling Anthem 
6 adr, 1 cast
Chant. "For 5 seconds, all allies in earshot move 15% faster and attack skills inflict Cripple for 5..10 seconds. Ends on each party member if they use a non-attack skill."

 Anthem of Guidance 
6 adr, 1 cast
Chant. "For 3..8 seconds, attacks made by party members in earshot that are blocked do 25..65 damage instead and give 0..2 adreniline to the attacking ally. Ends on each ally after 0..3 attacks."

 Cautery Signet 
2 cast, 12 recharge
Signet. "All allies in earshot lose all conditions. For each condition lost, you and foes in the area begin burning for one second."

If I'm terribly mistaken, let me know.

*lemming* · Sep 10, 2010, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Cruel Spear would do way too much damage. The fact that it's a ranged attack is sufficient reason to justify its stats being worse than Eviscerate.

Stunning Strike would be the most ridiculous spike skill since prenerf Harrier's Toss.

Natural Temper would fuel these no-recharge adrenaline elites too quickly.

The only thing adding energy reduction to Lead the Way would do is remove the requirement for a Zealous Spear to maintain it on both warriors.

The only thing Song of Power would ever be used for is a spike build.

Anthem of Guidance might actually be worse than its current state.

Shayne Hawke · Sep 10, 2010, 08:15 PM // 20:15

This has been fairly well laid out with good examples, and you even gave us a link to those changes on the official wiki's Feedback section. Very nice.

Only things I really noticed that I have issues with are the Cruel Spear and Stunning Spear buffs. I find those skills to be fairly strong, but not out-of-line, so I don't see changes to them as being necessary.

jazilla · Sep 10, 2010, 11:28 PM // 23:28

i like your idea with Cautery Signet. I would like to see something happen with the Motivation Line that would bring it's heals and buffs more in-line recharge wise with Monk skills but a tad less potent.
Instead of the auto-critical for Cruel Spear why not add a bleed? The 6 Adr. cost would prohibit it from being as good as Wounding Strike but still makes it viable. I honestly think if you did that you could have it cost 4 adr. just to make Paragons an interesting choice for RA.

SpyderArachnid · Sep 10, 2010, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I would like to see something happen with the Motivation Line that would bring it's heals and buffs more in-line recharge wise with Monk skills but a tad less potent.

Agree with this as well. Would like to see some more go into Motivation, as that is my primary Paragon. Love the abilities it offers, they just seem really dumbed down and not too effective.

Love your ideas though, nice job all around.

*lemming* · Sep 11, 2010, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

i like your idea with Cautery Signet. I would like to see something happen with the Motivation Line that would bring it's heals and buffs more in-line recharge wise with Monk skills but a tad less potent.
Instead of the auto-critical for Cruel Spear why not add a bleed? The 6 Adr. cost would prohibit it from being as good as Wounding Strike but still makes it viable. I honestly think if you did that you could have it cost 4 adr. just to make Paragons an interesting choice for RA.

Dismember and Vicious Attack are bad enough. You really don't want paragons to have two ranged deep wounds that are up constantly.

Lanier · Sep 11, 2010, 01:54 AM // 01:54

The elite spear attacks don't need buffs - they are already powerful enough already.

While I think creating more nondirect AoE damage (ex: through shouts, chants and other support skills similar to how splinter weapon operates) is fine, I don't think paragons need direct AoE capabilities. If you could have a splinteresque effect on a chant that gives a splinter capability to the next attack used by all allies in earshot, and then give it a suitable recharge/cost to balance the skill, i think that would be the way to go with AoE on a paragon.

Luminarus · Sep 11, 2010, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Stunning is quite powerful as it is, its the other skills the paragon brings to the table that are the issue. Same with cruel. Your suggestion makes cruel to many extents a ranged decapitate with no downside. Song of Power agreed would be OP.

I think the thing that might be better is what youve done with alot of skills like anthem of envy. If they toned down their improvements, and increased their usability (eg number of attacks rather then duration) it would be better. Because a one off damage spike isnt that great in a long battle, except for spikes, and is semi useless the rest of the time.

Skye Marin · Sep 11, 2010, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Thanks for the feedback. I've made some changes:

Stunning Strike - Only causes +damage if target is not already dazed. I really wanted the lower adr and casting time for this skill, so this will prevent use in spikes. If you want to take it a step further, make it cause no damage if it hits a dazed foe.

Cruel Spear - Reverted, then only removed non-moving clause. Mostly because paragons don't have a way to prevent an enemy from moving.

Song of Power - Increased casting time to 2, lowered +attribute to +0..3. Added new clause: "Ends on each ally if they cause damage with a spell." This essentially prevents spike abuse by limiting the effects to only one damage spell. Another idea I had was to bring back +0..4 and have it with a maximum of attribute 15, with the risk that could open the way for some multi-attribute spikes.

Motivation changes are in the works.

X Dr Pepper X · Sep 11, 2010, 01:50 PM // 13:50

I like some of your concepts, and some I take issue with.

Spears are one of the best pressure weapons in the game. They do almost as much damage as a bow and have an attack rate equal to or faster than a sword/axe and all at range. Spears don't need buffing in terms of spike potential because they're used well for pressuring teams.

Then there'd be the potential powercreep caused by your skills in PvE. "Go for the eyes" is already way good in PvE, and it'd be just ridiculous with your version. What's getting annoying as well is the powercreep of monsters too. Mesmer monsters are just so much more powerful since the last update. Since ANet isn't in the business of caring about the inherent reasons that PvE is broken, they're just slapping tiny band aids all over it.

I like where you want to take the Paragon as a general premise, but your skills may be too far out of line to see that this is fair.

Essence Snow · Sep 11, 2010, 02:53 PM // 14:53

I don't think the spear attacks are OP for PvE. For PvP sure....but whatever, I could care less about PvP. Anything that gives Paras an incentive to run anything besides imbagdon in PvE is a-o-k with me. There is really not too much concern with making Para foes more difficult. When was the last time anyone had any issues with a bunch of paras whipping up on them in PvE?

Shayne Hawke · Sep 11, 2010, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Paragons won't be let into PvE teams on account of a slight buff to a single-target damage skill or two. Therefore, it's better to just keep those skills balanced in a PvP sense.

pinkeyflower · Sep 12, 2010, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Thanks for the feedback. I've made some changes:

Stunning Strike - Only causes +damage if target is not already dazed. I really wanted the lower adr and casting time for this skill, so this will prevent use in spikes. If you want to take it a step further, make it cause no damage if it hits a dazed foe.

Cruel Spear - Reverted, then only removed non-moving clause. Mostly because paragons don't have a way to prevent an enemy from moving.

Song of Power - Increased casting time to 2, lowered +attribute to +0..3. Added new clause: "Ends on each ally if they cause damage with a spell." This essentially prevents spike abuse by limiting the effects to only one damage spell. Another idea I had was to bring back +0..4 and have it with a maximum of attribute 15, with the risk that could open the way for some multi-attribute spikes.

Motivation changes are in the works.

I don't understand how lowering adrenaline cost and 'casting' time of Stunning Strike prevents its use in spikes. Surely it would make it increase its use. Also the +dmg of it is just a bonus you really want it for the daze condition without having to resort to sucky skills like BHA.

Cruel spear is fine as it is there's no point giving paragons ranged Eviscerate. You stop the target from moving by working with your team mates and KD'ing them.

Skye Marin · Sep 12, 2010, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkeyflower

I don't understand how lowering adrenaline cost and 'casting' time of Stunning Strike prevents its use in spikes.

I changed it so that that the attack does no bonus damage if target foe is already dazed. It could be changed to "zeros the damage if already dazed". This prevents this skill from being used in a spike, because why would you spike with a skill that does no damage.

Either way, you can ignore the spear elite changes. Unless the skills were overhauled to be something more interesting like a Dragon Slash or Wounding strike or Magebane Shot, there's nothing I can do.

Luminarus · Sep 12, 2010, 10:28 AM // 10:28

If you did that it just means that people would use it to daze on target and spike another. Speeding up attack skills apart from interupts just turns them into spike skills. People still use savage shot in spike builds, not for its interupt. You cannot buff stunning strike without making it op. It doesnt need a nerf. Its fine, dont touch it. Buff the other paragon attacks, and shout skills (and by buff I mean rework because thats the inherant issue with the gons) and then their will be options. If you could increase party offence a bit through gfte, and a reworked anthem of envy (or similar skills), help relieve pressure with a couple of defensive skills, do ranged sword damage, and cause dazed on targets that would be worth taking in a stand based gvg team, or HA team. And that wouldnt involve a single change in stunning strike.

Fluffy Kittens · Sep 12, 2010, 11:53 AM // 11:53

I'd rather have Anet update warriors so they don't do op damage with daggers anymore than buffing paras which are already op in PvE if you use them correctly

Desert Rose · Sep 12, 2010, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Nearly any spear skill has a use on either a primary or secondary Paragon in PvE or PvP; spear attacks skills that need revision are Mighty Throw and Unblockable Throw. There's no reason changing a skill that is already balanced just for the sake of changing it.

Command has some fairly weak skills, but that are not the ones you want to change. The current PvE version of "Go for the Eyes!" is so strong that I would use it on most bars even if it would be an elite skill; it doesn't need further buffing. Command skills that need revision are "Help Me!", Anthem of Disruption, Anthem of Guidance, Bladeturn Refrain, Crippling Anthem and Godspeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

I changed it so that that the attack does no bonus damage if target foe is already dazed.

"Go for the Eyes!", Vicious Attack and Stunning Strike -> 2 spear attacks (one most likely critical), +57 damage, a very high chance for a deep wound in a time frame of less than 1/4 seconds.
If you want to give Stunning Strike a fixed attack time give it a fixed base daamge like DShot; we've seen in the past with ranger attack skills and recently sin attack skills what non interrupt attack skills with a fixed attack time do to the game.

Post your suggestions for Motivation, aka an attribute that really needs help; there's no need for yet another "Please chance Paragons into one-man-armies" thread.

Skye Marin · Sep 12, 2010, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Here goes. Note that my examples are only a selection, and ideally, almost all skills in Motivation would be changed, as well as many echoes.

6) Motivation

The paragon is in a unique position as a support class. It has high armor, making it tough to "kill first" and thematically, all skills it uses effect all allies in earshot. This makes it very good with alot of allies around, significantly less effective with less allies around, easily stackable with similarly equipped Paragons. Overall, it is not as effective as the monk or ritualist at protecting and making red bars go up fast. This is by design: show me a paragon that is a good healer, and I'll show you a team with nothing but paragons riffing on each other. The key then, is to limit the ability of skills where taking more than one copy is a good idea.

For example, Ballad of Restoration. With a high recharge, and a good chunk of heal when activated, half a team of paragons can take this skill and remain largely untouched, also benefiting from Echoes casted on every player. Before improvements can be made, the way these skills work have to change.

Here is a summary of proposed functionality changes:

Echoes - Only one echo can be placed on one ally at any one time. New Echoes replace old ones. A party monitor icon could be implemented. This will allow them to be buffed to interesting levels.

"Lyric" chants - Now effects all non-spell, non-attack skills.

"Aria", "Anthem", and "Lyric" chants - Now activate a benefit with every spell or attack skill cast for a set about of time, with slightly diminishing returns, and a duration nearly as long as recharge. New copies of these skills do not overwrite older copies.

"Chorus" chants - Now only buffs the current paragon's next chant. Think of these skills as a type of preparation or glyph for chants that activates on a set number of allies.

Beyond that, many skills must be made more dynamic instead of passive. More specificly, it should be in the paragon's interest of hold onto certain skills until the team really needs it.

Here are a few real examples:

Code:

Aria of Restoration
10 1 20
For 15 seconds, allies in earshot gain 10..40 health whenever they cast a spell. Health gain is reduced by 5 for every consecutive spell cast. No effect if ally is over 80% health.

Aria of Zeal
10 2 20
For 15 seconds, whenever allies in earshot cast a spell, they gain 10..25% of the energy cost of that spell. Effect is reduced by 5% for every consecutive spell cast.

Ballad of Restoration
10 2 20
For 15 seconds, allies in earshot gain 10..40 health whenever they take damage. Health gain is reduced by 5 for every consecutive activation. No effect if ally is over 80% health.

Song of Restoration
10 1 20
For 15 seconds, allies in earshot gain +1 health regeneration. Whenever each ally uses a skill, their health regeneration is increased by 1 (max +2..6)

Lyric of Purification
10 1 10
For 10 seconds, all allies in earshot lose one condition the next time they use a non-attack, non-spell skill. Whenever a condition is lost in this way, you lose 1 energy.

Chorus of Restoration
adr 4 1 5
Up to 3..6 allies affected by your next chant gain 15..30 health.

Energizing Chorus
adr 4 1 5
Up to 3..6 allies affected by your next chant gain 0..1 energy.

Signet of Synergy - Lower recharge to 4.

What do you think?

Remember that new chants no longer replace old chants. The main focus here is inventing a Paragon that promotes a diverse party with aggressive, active play. You'd find that the benefits of a Paragon with these changes are significantly reduced on a spike team.

I'd say the strongest argument against this is that it would take a lot of work to implement.

Shayne Hawke · Sep 12, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Aria of Zeal is stupid. I don't want to see skills that are anything like, "Target has X%...Y% chance of activating Z effect." Chancy skills like that shouldn't exist. Aria and Ballad of Restoration look pretty neat though.

Skye Marin · Sep 12, 2010, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Yeah, I wasn't too happy with Aria of Zeal, so I changed it:

Aria of Zeal
10 2 20
For 15 seconds, whenever allies in earshot cast a spell, they gain 10..25% of the energy cost of that spell. Effect is reduced by 5% for every consecutive spell cast.

At 15 spec, a player casting 5 energy skills will get energy at: 1, 1, 1, 0, 0
and 10 energy would be: 3, 2, 2, 1, 1

Channeling is still better in all HA cases for spammy skills, but you get more out of it if you can put more into it and it affects the team, which is interesting.