Curse

reaper with no name · Aug 13, 2010, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Assassins didn't need any of those things. Armor and self-heals in particular are unnecessary if your monks don't suck, and if they do, the solution certainly isn't sacrificing damage to cover for them.

If it took a nerf to secondary assassins to ensure primary ones would be the best at their job as you claim, then why are you saying that the same is not a good idea here? Double strikes are one of the things that make daggers good, just as hitting multiple targets is what makes scythes good.

Have you actually compared scythes to other weapons? No other weapon can pump out that much damage to multiple targets without the party building themselves around them. If the dervish were the best scythe user, they would be good period, because this fact would still be true.

What's stopping people from using the scythe under this idea? Nothing, it just prevents them from getting the AoE benefits, just like a warrior doesn't get high crit rates with daggers and assassins don't get armor penetration on attack skills with axes.

Oh, and your AoHM idea is not only one that I brought up a long time ago, but it's also a nerf to secondary dervishes, just like this suggestion. So you just undercut your entire argument.

Dusk_ · Aug 13, 2010, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If every other scythe user was nerfed, Dervishes would become the preferred general melee AoE class overnight.

Earthshaker, HB, JS/FF/DB, MS/DB all say hi. Hell, even WE Axe is an acceptable substitute with WWA and Cyclone Axe.

Dervishes are generally just crap at attack spamming. Warriors and Assassins are built to spam attacks and deal damage as constantly as possible, and Dervishes are built to break the offence to load up enchantments every 20 seconds.

reaper with no name · Aug 13, 2010, 01:10 AM // 01:10

None of those deal nearly as much damage to multiple targets as scythes do, regardless of whether or not it's a primary dervish doing it.

Dusk_ · Aug 13, 2010, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

None of those deal nearly as much damage to multiple targets as scythes do, regardless of whether or not it's a primary dervish doing it.

HB alone can spike down an entire mob in a few seconds, with WWA. MS/DB and JS/FF/DB can pump out hefty DPS as well, especially if you have SoH and SW support.

Scythe builds are really just C+Space DPS, which can be easily outclassed if you play smart.

reaper with no name · Aug 13, 2010, 01:20 AM // 01:20

HB's effectiveness relies on MoP as much as it does on WA. Without MoP, those numbers won't be nearly as high. Furthermore, HB and WA become less effective the fewer enemies you're hitting.

Dagger AoE is inferior to what scythes can pump out.

Dusk_ · Aug 13, 2010, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

HB's effectiveness relies on MoP as much as it does on WA. Without MoP, those numbers won't be nearly as high. Furthermore, HB and WA become less effective the fewer enemies you're hitting.

Dagger AoE is inferior to what scythes can pump out.

HB is the optimal choice for AoE, provided you're willing to do any sort of enemy balling, even in H/H groups. Check out EFGJack's build on the Warrior board, and see his H/H times in the H/H forum. You don't even need MoP, although that will completely break it. With some minor effort, and EBSoH, you can easily spike an entire group for half their health at once with a WWA.

Daggers only have inferior AoE when you're at the optimal Scythe number all the time (in which case, you're already balling), but if you have any sort of buffs (and you should never be without SoH), you can easily make up for it with general DPS.

Really, your argument is rather moot. Daggers have the highest single target DPS with physway support, HB has the highest AoE damage with even a slight amount of effort. Scythe builds are never run in any organized groups, and will only be seen in PuG or casual H/Hing. Nerfing scythes will only change build dynamics in one area - the one that doesn't even care about optimal builds in the first place.

saint666 · Aug 13, 2010, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Assassins didn't need any of those things. Armor and self-heals in particular are unnecessary if your monks don't suck, and if they do, the solution certainly isn't sacrificing damage to cover for them.

pre-SY spam, Prot Rits, ER Prot, op pve skills, armor+self heals would of definitely helped. Post? mostly you just need good damage, self heals are unnecessary, armor is still helpful for the amount of crappy monks out there, but a maintained ias and low recharging skills was definitely needed. Dervish had plenty of self heals to keep them alive at their debut, but their damage was never impressive to begin with, that makes them as useful as a lawn ornament these days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If it took a nerf to secondary assassins to ensure primary ones would be the best at their job as you claim, then why are you saying that the same is not a good idea here? Double strikes are one of the things that make daggers good, just as hitting multiple targets is what makes scythes good.

Do you smell sarcasm, the idea of limiting double strikes to assassins only would make assassins "stronger" is stupid as limiting scythes would fix dervs, Really does mysticism work now, do dervish skills not suck? If CS and assassin skills sucked does it matter if assassins were best with daggers, no you have to be retarded to not understand that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Have you actually compared scythes to other weapons? No other weapon can pump out that much damage to multiple targets without the party building themselves around them. If the dervish were the best scythe user, they would be good period, because this fact would still be true.

Again if CS and assassin skills sucked does it matter if assassins were best with daggers. Nerfing scythes for other classes so only a subpar class can use it would only grief other players, limit build diversity, it does not actually fix the dervish itself. Without a functional mysticism and skills, dervishes are still a subpar class compared to all the daggersins, HB/WE/ES warriors out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

What's stopping people from using the scythe under this idea? Nothing, it just prevents them from getting the AoE benefits, just like a warrior doesn't get high crit rates with daggers and assassins don't get armor penetration on attack skills with axes.

Crit rate and AP are products of their primary attribute not their weapon. Double strikes is a product of daggers themselves not Assassins. Gaining energy with enchantments is the product of mysticism, that's what dervishes are. Warriors can never benefit from CS even though they can use daggers as well as an assassin, just like assassins can never benefit from enchantment like dervishes can even if they use a scythe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Oh, and your AoHM idea is not only one that I brought up a long time ago, but it's also a nerf to secondary dervishes, just like this suggestion. So you just undercut your entire argument.

Sarcasm again, it's a stupid idea. It does nothing at all to actually make dervishes stronger. Mysticism is still weak, scythe damage is still subpar with the most of the enchantment's that were supposed to boost dervish damage unusable.

saint666 · Aug 13, 2010, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

HB is the optimal choice for AoE, provided you're willing to do any sort of enemy balling, even in H/H groups. Check out EFGJack's build on the Warrior board, and see his H/H times in the H/H forum. You don't even need MoP, although that will completely break it. With some minor effort, and EBSoH, you can easily spike an entire group for half their health at once with a WWA.

Daggers only have inferior AoE when you're at the optimal Scythe number all the time (in which case, you're already balling), but if you have any sort of buffs (and you should never be without SoH), you can easily make up for it with general DPS.

Really, your argument is rather moot. Daggers have the highest single target DPS with physway support, HB has the highest AoE damage with even a slight amount of effort. Scythe builds are never run in any organized groups, and will only be seen in PuG or casual H/Hing. Nerfing scythes will only change build dynamics in one area - the one that doesn't even care about optimal builds in the first place.

Daggers, swords etc are good because of all the skills that go with them and the classes using them. Scythes aren't good because they are scythes, nerfing scythes won't change a thing for dervishes, a dervish with sub par attributes and skills using a scythe is not the same as Sins/Wars using any weapon. Even monks and Eles can match dervs with scythes if they wanted to right now.

Playing Is Srs Bsns · Aug 13, 2010, 10:55 PM // 22:55

nooooo dont nerf bulls strike scythe monk

Ferminator · Aug 14, 2010, 02:19 AM // 02:19

It won't make a difference, how often would a crit scythe or strength scythe war sin hit 3 mobs anyway? I don't those builds are based on high dps, not aoe damage so it makes no difference. You are only hindering the dervishes who do not like to use mysticsm and nerfing them over all when they need the opposite.

EDIT: Anything you do to mysticsm that is along the lines of breakpoints, 50% fail below 4 etc. will make the use of wind prayers and earth prayers totally and eve more useless. Because you need attributes in scythe mastery to do damage, mysticsm to actually use the scythe properly, you won't even have enough attributes left for wind prayers, earth prayers or any secondary profession attributes for that matter. If you want a build that can use wind prayers, look at Zealous Vow. It beats the shit out of mysticsm and does the same thing and better because enchantment juggling sucks and you have to do damage with your scythe anyway. If you tie the scythe in any way shape or form to mysticsm in a way that mysticsm is necessary for its use then the warriors will simply go back to using dragon slash and the assassins will use moebius and the dervish is left with an even more screwed up primary attribute. Crit scythe and strength scythe is a secondary build that takes up a secondary profession and there are other builds directly tied to their primary professions that do the same thing.

/notsigned

Ferminator · Aug 14, 2010, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

Even monks and Eles can match dervs with scythes if they wanted to right now.

I could even make a scythe ele using earth magic now that I think about it.

|AW||Big_Bad_Bunny| · Sep 17, 2010, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Reaper, I respectfully submit that the topic you want to put forward is, "everybody should like my solution and keep my thread all about my solution." I further submit that the opening couple sentences led us all to believe that the topic was, "lifting the Dervish up to a par with other classes." You can't have it both ways. This thread and the one you linked in your edit both propose to help the Dervish.

Now that I said that, let me say this: I like the innovative idea of linking Mysticism. Your limits are too severe; low level Dervs would be so weak as to be frustrating. How about: Mysticism 0 hits 1, Myst 3 hits 2, Myst 7 hits 3 and Myst 12+ hits 4. That way the thrill of PBAoE gets realized a little earlier and more effectively.