Curse

deluxe · Oct 27, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

This.
I wonder how many times those who advocate for changing Zaishen into PvE title sold their own ZKeys in GToB or Kamadan.

I'm pretty sure most people who are for changing Zaishen to PvE are like me:
Have every single PvP title, but then find out all you need is Zaishen rank 3 to fill your HoM, something any PvE-only player can do.
What happened to the rest of our PvP titles? Imo up the HoM requirement to 3 PvP titles or more!

Pritst Of Death · Oct 27, 2010, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Well, one thing is for sure.

MOST of keys sold come from PvP.
3 daily non-repeatable quests can in no way beat Balthazar faction, tournament points, and repeatable ZQuests.

So, at least that's that for sure. They COME from PvP.

no i actually use all mine but i've also bough a very high ammount of them and have r9 zashian now but i'm not replying on that for my hom. a huge ammount of zkey come from the monthly AT casue thats 16,000 keys and than another huge chunk is from ha quest day casue i could normaly farm like 70 keys a day easy

and to upier because the pvp you did was a CM go wiki that

drkn · Oct 27, 2010, 05:51 PM // 17:51

My point was: if PvPers - aka those who are hurt by ZRank in HoM as PvP title - didn't sell their keys on the market, their value would be a lot higher and PvErs would have to get their own keys. It's as simple as that - if you ever sold your keys you got from pew pewing hard in your HA, GvG, RA or even FA, you have no right to complain in this thread because it's people like you who make the opportunity to buy the statue.

So the only PvPers really hurt by Zaishen Title counting as PvP for HoM Calc are those who use up all their Balth faction and use up all their keys themselves, never selling them to anyone. It doesn't matter how you got the faction for your keys, as long as you sell them, you are the one powering the whole problem, not the 'lazy PvE population' only.

And now - divide the PvP community - be it occasional PvP, be it hardcore PvP, be it festivals, be it anything that generates Balth faction - into two parts: those who get ZKeys with their faction and then sell the keys vs. those who get ZKeys with their faction and then use their keys, never selling any.
I believe the former group would be much bigger. The roots of a problem with PvP-oriented title/statue lie in the PvP itself. I agree everyone can just buy 200 keys, never getting into Jade Quarry or Costume Brawl for the least; but if no one sold them, there would be no opportunity to do so, therefore more people would have to actually play PvP.

If there's that high supply for something as for keys, it's nothing weird there's such demand, and the trades in this field are common. I for one more often see 'WTS ZKeys 5k/each' than 'WTB ...'.

TL;DR: Zaishen Rank is strictly tied to PvP in general and the real problem is that it can be bought via purchasing the ZKeys needed for your statue (if ZKeys were non-tradeable, the problem would be non-existant - we agree); if you sell your keys, you just generate the problem and have no real right to whine here. Solution for PvPers: stop selling your keys so that more people have to get into PvP if they want to get their statue.

Pritst Of Death · Oct 27, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

while i hate to admit it your right pvp'ers who sell keys are the problems but the fact that pvpers are selling them isn't the only problem becasue while the number are smaller some pve'ers are doing the zashian quests and gaining coins from those and turning them into zashain keys and while you look most people selling keys in gtob are selling 1 or 2 and most pvp'er when unloading zkeys or heavly selling are gonna sell lots at a time and make about 100k off that sale so that leads me to think that maybe pve'ers are just as responciable now becasue of how easy it is for them 2 sell keys too. because at this point you no longer need to pvp to get zkeys

zashian coins
zashian challange
zashian elite
= r3 zashian

jazilla · Oct 27, 2010, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

No, what I am saying is that I EARNED my Z-Keys by doing PvP. It was really crappy PvP, but it was PvP.
So, once again, why am I not deserving of a PvP reward for the PvP I did?
Just because YOU didn't get them through PvP?

Did you even read my OP? It's all about Z-Keys not counting and has nothing to do with whether or not you did FA and whether or not The Kurz/Lux Titles should count toward that. Your point is has nothing to do with my point. That is what I am saying. I am also saying if you feel that seriously about it, post a thread about FA/JQ or whatever else you feel needs to be added and I will /sign or /notsigned based on whether or not I agree.

The point you are trying to make on this thread has nothing to do with my post topic.

drkn · Oct 27, 2010, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Zaishen Elite doesn't let you get heroes anymore, and even while trapping, you need at least one other person with you in order to do it in one go. I know people who used to ZE a lot with heroes but ceased doing so after the heroes got deleted from PvP, myself included. It's a marginal factor.
Zaishen Challenge can't generate more than ZE (as they draw from common pool of 6k/daily max).
Still, let it be 6k faction a day. But remember it's not like 'all PvErs out there do it', it's less than ~10% since heroes got removed.

As far as the coins go, i exclude GvG and HA, since it requires being a PvPer (in a PvP-oriented, or at least interested, guild or already having some HA experience).
So it's AB that gives 175 cooper coins (after 6 battles won + one win with 200+ points) + ~250 coins from both mission and bounty. That's ~450 coins daily, or 9 silver coins, or less than one gold coin.
One Zaishen Key is 2 gold coins. So you would have to do ZM+ZB+ZC for three days in order to get one ZKey (and that if we take the highest ZM/ZB/ZC rewards available for most people).

On the other hand, winning six batles in HA (getting Halls at least once included) grants you 350 coins, or 7 silver coins. Do this twice and you already have 1,5 ZKey.
The same goes for GvG.
Not to mention you get 9k Balth faction for completing the ZC itself, so you get 3 ZKeys for getting one high-end ZC with bonuses. And if not going for bonuses, you may get much more per hour.
It's damn hard for a random PvE player to farm Balth faction // coins via RA.

In comparison, commonly available ways to get ZKeys - through ZE, through Zaishen Coins - is just a margin. If you want to have the keys in amount that might influent the market, and generate the whole problem, YOU HAVE TO get them as a PvPer.

It's all down to simple math and the fact that it's PvPers who generate the ZKeys' supply, so that everyone can buy their statue. ZKeys don't grow on trees.

Pritst Of Death · Oct 27, 2010, 06:33 PM // 18:33

whats about the zashian mission and zashian bounty? you can do those on all chacters you have that are pve and i know a lot of people who do them on 8 guys every day for coins. i get what your saying though and i agree that probbley somwhere in 80-90% of zkeys being sold are from pvp and out of that 80-90 probbley 50% of that is from gvg and like 30% from ha and 10% from ra but there still is that 10% comming from pve'ers so you can't put this all on pvpers for the title losing value. and honestly most pvp'ers i know hated the zashian title and though it was tacky for pvp'ers to have. "it's the pve hero title"

drkn · Oct 27, 2010, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Imagine what happens if PvPers suddenly stop selling their keys.
Price of one ZKey skyrockets to 10+k. There's less and less demand for them, since the supply dropped a lot and they're no longer affordable (or the price somehow stays, the demand stays, but the supply is damn low - comparable to buying a rare minipet for 5k rather than 30e). It's just much easier and faster to get into that RA/JQ/whatnot and get 5k Balth faction yourself than waste 10+k on one key.

The amount of keys generated by PvErs only is, i repeat, marginal. People doing ZM+ZB+ZC on a daily basis with all their characters (and they have all PvE chars) is a margin, not a common sight.

Meanwhile, as you said yourself, you can easily get 70 ZKeys on one day with HA Zaishen Combat. Imagine there are people better than you at it, farming it faster, easier, more often, for longer. And they do the same on GvG days, on RA days. It's PvPers.
Compared to that, those 1-3 keys daily obtainable via PvE is a ridiculously low amount.

Pritst Of Death · Oct 27, 2010, 06:46 PM // 18:46

honestly 70 keys is easy thats considering you make about 80 fame in a day on good days ha'ers can make 200 keys on a ha quest day. but than again even if ha'ers and gvg'ers stoped selling them for a while than all of a sudden the price goes up and everyone takes advantage of it and sells and drops the price right back 2 there it is currently. so honestly idk if the zkeys price will ever go up higher because of greed. but because we are getting slightly off point i agree that most the keys are created from ha and it is the ha'ers fault for pve'ers having the title mainly but with that being said it's still not right for the pve'ers to be reward for buying items with a pvp status for buying the pvp'ers work. if anet is ok with this idk y there not ok with selling fame or champ points cause to me it's very silimer

drkn · Oct 27, 2010, 07:17 PM // 19:17

It's primairily the PvPers' philosophy, their attitude. If they weren't selling ZKeys in the first place, Zaishen Title would still be viewed as a viable way to show your total PvP experience.
If they withheld selling ZKeys for a longer while and didn't take advantage of their higher price due to lower supply - that is, if they treated the whole thing ideally, philosophically - the situation would be cured in a few months - but that's too late for it already.

PvP can be farmed as well as PvE, just the main PvP reward is Balth faction which translates into ZKeys. People, including hardcore PvPers with all PvP statues in their HoMs, farm keys and take advantage of the market's demand, getting money for their own needs.
From a market standpoint, it's all clear and fine - the PvP and PvE sides of the game may benefit from it easily, as each can supply things the other side lacks. From elitist PvPer standpoint, ZRank lost it's credibility since PvPers started to massively sell ZKeys to always demanding market.

Xunlai Tournament House was the only non-PvP factor that should be seriously taken into account, but that's long been gone and the situation crippled by it is somewhat healed.

The simple fact that one can buy ZKeys - and one can sell ZKeys - doesn't mean that the Zaishen Title isn't still a PvP title. There are people willing to 'sell' you a statue for UW - that is, take you on a run while you AFK for most time so you can just pay and get the statue for your HoM. It still doesn't require ANY form of PvE from you, since you might got the money from selling keys (powering the whole OP's problem in the first place).
If Zaishen statue were to change, they would have to introduce a third category, apart of PvP/PvE - 'stuff you can buy' statues, which would include nearly everything in game (including HA, since there are people who bought their HA rank some time ago when people like Crystal Story ran their services with no formal problems).
And that would be pretty dumb.

Pritst Of Death · Oct 27, 2010, 07:35 PM // 19:35

everyone knows cryatal story did that but he also had 5 accounts banned because of it becasue your not allowed 2 sell fame. with that being said anet is fine having people buy the zashian title and pve titles and everything else and if there ok with people now buying the pvp status for GW2 does this mean now were allowed 2 sell champ points and fame? casue thats kinda what i feel like anet is saying

Nekodesu · Oct 28, 2010, 08:50 AM // 08:50

This is just stupid, the title is PvP for obvious reasons. Jeeze would you count it PvP if it couldn't be sold? It's an item you trade for the chest, or well you unlock the chest with the key, but the whole concept of it was for PvP only. Before they had no value before the title came aswell. Anyways, it's a PvP title, because the only way for people to gain a Zaishen key to sell it to you is to do PvP!! Well, this means unless you're a cheater and use tonics(Well they are called something else but I mistake them for tonics anyways 6_6), but the consept was to do PvP to gain this title. So I really dont see the problem...

They should make Zkeys untradeable & unsellable in my opinion, then the title would also show your experience with PvP, well sort of.

drkn · Oct 28, 2010, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Since Morphy can't stick to one thread regarding Zaishen Title...

Quote:

No, because of Zaishen Elite. If you removed that and retroactively all the points that were gotten from anything but PvP, then it would be considered a PvP title. Naturally, the amount of rage that would stir up isn't worth it, so the Zaishen title should be treated as a PvE title.

I'd agree with lowering daily ZE gain to 3k Balth or increasing it to 10k but restricting it for a week rather for a day. Removal is pointless and would discourage people from getting into PvP.
Don't sell the keys in the first place, /thread.

*lemming* · Oct 28, 2010, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Removal is pointless and would discourage people from getting into PvP.

No it wouldn't. The only people who ever play Zaishen Elite are PvEers getting their free zkeys or unlocks for heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Don't sell the keys in the first place, /thread.

Even if somehow, every single PvEer who PvPed on occasion was convinced to join a Zkey cartel designed to set a price floor, I'm pretty sure PvEers who never PvP would be complaining about how the PvP monuments are too hard to get anyway.

drkn · Oct 28, 2010, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

I'm pretty sure PvEers who never PvP would be complaining about how the PvP monuments are too hard to get anyway.

So what? Let them whine.
The only thing ANet could do to comfort them is making Gamer a PvP statue - and i believe we agreed that it, in fact, is a PvP format.
ZKeys generated from PvE via coins/ZE are not enough to meet market's demand, so more people would be forced to farm Balth faction. With ZKeys' price skyrocketing, there are two most possible outcomes - a) less people have 50/50 due to not meeting PvP requirement; b) more people play PvP formats, be it even JQ/FA/AB - they still earn their statue rather than just buy it. I can't see anything wrong in both from PvP-standpoint.
Sure, after a few months those who started farming JQ for their own title would have enough keys to sell them, but it's a far vision.
As a PvE player who never been to HA outpost, never played GvG, never got into TA team and started playing RA just recently, i accumulated nearly 1,5kk Balth faction on my account. Out of 200 keys i used, i bought 20 a few days before HoM calc hit in, just because i wanted to have a nice round number in my hero tab.
Even if PvErs forced to PvP don't populate HA or GvG, getting their own keys via JQ is fair enough.

To sum up - i'm a PvE player who achieved his ZRank pretty much on his own. I don't really care that ZRank can be bought. I see where PvPers may see the problem and why this thread even exists. I believe the Zaishen Title is a PvP title, despite what has become of it, same as UW statue is a PvE one despite all speed clears and AFK runs.
Yet if people can buy their statue, someone has to supply the keys to them (and remember it's 200 keys per capita) - someone has to sell the keys.
While the PvE community might cease buying keys (but why? it's not in their interest), the PvP community may simply stop selling them. Start a cartel now and hope you can force more people into PvP or stop complaining, since Zaishen Rank is PvP, doesn't matter what one thinks - for the very least, because 90+% total ZKeys in the market come from PvP.

helloeveryone · Oct 28, 2010, 02:53 PM // 14:53

all i see in this thread is one community trying to make things hard for each other and not getting together and ask anet to make anyone of these 50 titles easy to get so as to benefit the entire community as a whole and everyone get the fiery glove in GW2 for fun.

i was wondering for casual player who play GW at an average of about 30 mins a day, how to get the 200zkey / 1000plat / r3 champ / r3 hero / r3 glad for the pvp title? if r3 gamer is implemented is harder to achieve for casual player as it is seasonal

anet, since this game is design for casual playing, please enlighten me how am i going to get it? RA seems like the best way, but i can hardly get 5 consec wins for 1 single point and i need like 400 points right? 5x400 is 2500 matches lolz. as a casual player u cannot expect me to monk like a R11 HA player right?

nah, its ok, it just a game, i really like guildwars, it is fun and entertaining. thanks anet for trying so hard to bring life and fun into the game. I appreciate it

jazilla · Oct 28, 2010, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

To quote:

So, if I understand you correctly - you are arguing that you with your Game/Glad titles also shouldn't have the HoM PvP points yet.
Or are you actually saying that Gamer/Glad should count as "organized PvP", deserving the PvP HoM rewards?

And if those crappy PvP modes count, then why shouldn't the Zaishen-title, which allows players that do OTHER crappy PvP modes, such as JQ, AB or FA, count also?

I see your point with this. I didn't mention those because you can earn Kurz/Lux faction faster just doing speed clears in PvE with blessings from Priests. IF they had kept Kurz/Lux faction out of PvE I would totally be down with those titles being PvP.

Keep in mind, I also /signed another person's suggestion on this forum about totally removing the PvP req. for the HoM.

I was trying to make the point(and pretty badly I might add) that if you want a PvP statue for your hall you should have to do RA/HA/GvG etc. meaning you should have to earn a PvP statue and not be able to get a PvP statue by spending money you earned from PvE to buy it. I should have stated that more clearly than I did. I hope that clears it up.

I do think we are in agreement that the system has its flaws. If you go back and read some of my other posts I comment on how you get your Z-key statue before you get whatever arena statue you would get. That also doesn't make sense to me at all.

Pritst Of Death · Oct 28, 2010, 08:42 PM // 20:42

if they made the Allegiance and Gamer titles pvp than they should increase the pvp req for the hom of like 1 point per pvp title even that would be better if u needed 3 pvp titles instead of the just 1. that way most people would go max kruz luxon and zashian but still thats better that they have 2 put more work into it than just buying a title and while zashian can be bought and done in about 20 min at least players might not be doing pvp but it lessens it and makes them take more time to get the other two points for it than just letting them spam space bar. alough with the new 7way hero set up it very well might be possible for people 2 just spam space bar and vq a while area on auto run and space bar but thats another topic

prinzess of life · Oct 30, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedStar

Wait...you either did the last 20% by FA (not JQ, let's not lie that much) or you kind of lied to back up your statement.

I don't need to lie to backup my statments, i realy did 80% of my luxon title in Ab and the befor the 30/06/2007 because thats the date i got my savior of luxons. The other 20 % i did in Aurios mines and repeatble Luxon quest like jade arena , but mainly i did pvp as you can see on my main PvP characters they earned experience only by PvP .

The screenshot "saviors2" was taken 30/06/2007
"champion" shows experience earned by 1 PvP character, "elonian" by another PvP character, Luxon shows that up to today i earned 14 mio luxon factions
"saviors" shows that i donated 19 mio luxon factions
that means that i earned 10 mio befor the update in AB by donating 1:1 and 4 mio by donating 2:1 after the update in PvE because i did 4 times vanquishing on my 4 GWAMM's.

I have 249 hero points and 24 gladiator points that i earned befor team arena got removed.

Shadowspawn X · Oct 30, 2010, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

I'm pretty sure most people who are for changing Zaishen to PvE are like me:
Have every single PvP title, but then find out all you need is Zaishen rank 3 to fill your HoM, something any PvE-only player can do.
What happened to the rest of our PvP titles? Imo up the HoM requirement to 3 PvP titles or more!

I agree with this statement. The point of the HoM is not to make sure every player gets an easy button to fill it completely, but to recognize the players achievements in GW1. Now one thing I think everyone can agree on is that pvp players are not being recognized properly, that is fundamentally wrong and needs to be corrected. Also what was the deal in abruptly lowering the hero requirement for the HoM?