Curse

MithranArkanere · Oct 16, 2010, 03:15 PM // 15:15

I think it simpler to consider the problem a naming thing.
In this case, "PvP title" refers to a title that can be acquired only in the PvP areas. That is, a "Battle isles title".

Gamer is not considered PvP. Why? Because many games are not organized by the Zaishen. Even when once in the arena outpost you'll often see the Battle Isles map as the region map, you don't have to step at all in the Battle isles to enter that outpost. But there is no way to get to HA or TA without going to the battle isles (including your guild hall) first.

Kurzick and Luxon are partially PvP too like the Zaishen title, but it's not added. Why? Because it happens in Factions, not in the Battle Isles.

And the Zaishen title, even when you can get it by doing only PvE (much slower than by doing only PvP) or by purchasing the keys from others, you MUST be in the Battle isles to get it. There's no way around that.

Rename "PvP title" to "Battle isles title" and done, all the inconsistencies are solved.

Of course, that won't make those that want to remove the Zaishen happy, but just think:
"Would they be complaining if the the title was name "Battle Isles title" in the first place?"
Yes, they will, people always complain, but the complains would be the usual ones.

Lanier · Oct 16, 2010, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbie_of_doom

O really, what about luxon/kurzick then?

Also, the Zaishen Supporter title is still not a PvP title. It can still be bought even if you NEVER play JQ/AB/FA/RA/HA/GvG or whatever.
It shouldn't be a PvP title in fairness, but honestly I don't really care. I care more about selling zkeys anyway.

I think a lot of us would like for lux/kurz (at a higher rank of course) to count. It doesn't however, so his point still stands.

Essence Snow · Oct 16, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Don't really give a rat's ass why some people don't like pvp, they just better not expect to have pvp rewards when they don't want to pvp. It's just as pants on head retarded as trying to collect VA benefits when you've never served in the military.

Just out of curiosity...What are those PvP rewards that ppl are supposively expecting? I was under the impression that the rewards were mostly if not all PvE rewards.

Kawil · Oct 16, 2010, 05:53 PM // 17:53

The entire HoM is geared toward PvE so I'm having a hard time understanding how 1 title (Zaishen) that PvEers can get is being QQ'd over. Don't get me wrong, there are other PvP titles that can be earned for HoM but compared to the sheer amount of PvE titles...it's really not worth much mentioning.

So...either way...take it off of HoM or leave it. I'm not going to complain about 1 title I can or can't display.

Yojimaru · Oct 16, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I have a problem with this system when it allows a player to "buy" their PvP rewards for GW2.

I have a problem with you and others like you automatically assuming that we all bought the zaishen title. I EARNED my Zaishen title via JQ, FA and various season PVP formats (in before snobbish nose lifting), and didn't buy a single key so... /notsigned.

drkn · Oct 16, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

It makes me laugh how people treat 'those who play mainly PvE' and 'those who play mainly PvP' so differently. Presuming that the former plays ONLY PvE and knows NOTHING of PvP (and that seasonal arenas aren't REAL PvP, though they're probably one of the best Balth faction source), while the latter are playing ONLY PvP and are viewed as elitist douchebags. Seriously, have a more holistic approach at Guild Wars - it has both PvE and PvP, there are people playing and enjoying both, though they don't necessarily have to grind up they're PvP to get recognized for their effort or farm PvE titles if they prefer PvP - they can put their PvP titles in HoM instead.
I'd agree with everyone stating that Gamer should be a PvP statue, but saying that Zaishen should be PvE title because the keys can be bought - come on, you just show that stereotipical elitism off. And just to point out - while you, raging here PvPers, may sell your keys to weak PvErs, for the money earned you may buy runs through the PvE content. So PvE statues - not only Sweet Tooth, but also Underworld statue, Hero statues, VQ statues - can be bought and done for you while you AFK.
So... Some may whine that Zaishen title may be easily bought from people farming PvP, some may whine that nearly all PvE titles may be bought from runners - so it makes it pretty even, i guess? To say more, selling ZKeys can easily yield enough money to buy ALL PvE statues you ever need if you like to PvP only. From both market and gameplay standpoints, it's all well even and balanced out.

Del · Oct 16, 2010, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Just out of curiosity...What are those PvP rewards that ppl are supposively expecting? I was under the impression that the rewards were mostly if not all PvE rewards.

The statue you're too terrible to earn.

deluxe · Oct 16, 2010, 08:48 PM // 20:48

1 PvP title gives 3 points, why not make it require 2 or 3 PvP titles to get those 3 points?
I have all PvP titles, but now I have to do thing's I hate doing to get 50/50: Cartography, Grinding etc.
Why should the PvE players have it easy?

drkn · Oct 16, 2010, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

I have all PvP titles, but now I have to do thing's I hate doing to get 50/50: Cartography, Grinding etc.
Why should the PvE players have it easy?

If you have all PvP statues, you don't have to do the cartography at all. Most other PvE titles can be bought with the money you make selling your ZKeys - just hire a runner and go AFK. The market for ZKeys are quite stable and they're selling fast, so money should not be a problem if you're good at it.
Where's the problem? And you still can show off your HoM to others via the calculator to show how pro PvPer you are.

jazilla · Oct 16, 2010, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

If you have all PvP statues, you don't have to do the cartography at all. Most other PvE titles can be bought with the money you make selling your ZKeys - just hire a runner and go AFK. The market for ZKeys are quite stable and they're selling fast, so money should not be a problem if you're good at it.
Where's the problem? And you still can show off your HoM to others via the calculator to show how pro PvPer you are.

i think he is referring to the fact that he EARNED the pvp titles. he didn't buy them etc. he is saying that now, because he likes to actually play he would have to grind those out. some people don't think in terms of buying their accolades just like some baseball players actually play well without buying steroids to enhance their stats. you were completely missing the point of his post or avoiding it on purpose to make what you were saying seem valid which it shouldn't be.

chris12xu · Oct 17, 2010, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Then again, do casuals even care about getting 50/50? No, because they're casual, not serious players. The only people who care whether or not zaishen counts as a pvp title or not are pvers who are too terrible to just play some pve, and hide behind excuses of rank discrimination and other bullshit like that.

Nice way to just generalize every single casual player....do you know every single casual player? I didn't think so, so don't speak for them and besides its not like the pvp title only counts if you above 30/50 is can be used to reach any mark you want it to reach. But I get it you like your e-peen to much. w/e

Swahnee · Oct 17, 2010, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Then, dare I ask, why is even there a 3 points bonus for a PvP title, when the rewards are PvE thingies?

This. ANet should have stated since the beginning that HoM and HoM rewards are PvE, and PvE only, content. What PvP needs (correct me if i'm wrong) are not shiny items and titles in GW2, but actual updates here in GW1 (GvG updates, skill updates, etc.), so people should complain about the lack of those, instead of being deluded by that "1 PvP statue" label, that means nothing, because clearly HoM has nothing to do with PvP. They should have named it another way from the beginning, like suggested MithranArkanere, not to make people think that there is some PvP involved in achieving HoM rewards.

Shriketalon · Oct 17, 2010, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Don't really give a rat's ass why some people don't like pvp, they just better not expect to have pvp rewards when they don't want to pvp. It's just as pants on head retarded as trying to collect VA benefits when you've never served in the military.

Right, because PvP is just like the armed forces. Risking your life for Tyria, defending it from all manner of threats, fighting evil armies and slaying evil gods, hunting down insidious traitors and besting otherworldy forces. Putting their lives on the line while overpaid athletes flail about in a mud pit, doing the same thing again and again while claiming they are the greatest beings in the world.

Oh, wait. No. I mixed those up. Silly me.

At the end of the day, PvP just isn't very important in terms of the transition to Guild Wars 2. Everything about the progression from one game to the next centers on the PvE world, the lore, the characters, the nations, the races, the history. That means that the number of times you have beaten another group in GvG or slain a bunch of randomly selected berks with your crew of equally randomly selected berks isn't some monumental, unparalleled glory. It stands equal to vanquishing the entire known world or mastering every mission or getting really, really drunk. Each gets a statue.

This suggestion wouldn't do anything to make the game better. All it would do is add to the sense of elitism for a certain subset of players, because other people would have to go through their format to "earn" a full hall. Quite frankly, that's not a sufficient reason. That's just people being annoyed that their favorite toy isn't being placed on a pedestal.

Morphy · Oct 17, 2010, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Right, because PvP is just like the armed forces. Risking your life for Tyria, defending it from all manner of threats, fighting evil armies and slaying evil gods, hunting down insidious traitors and besting otherworldy forces. Putting their lives on the line while overpaid athletes flail about in a mud pit, doing the same thing again and again while claiming they are the greatest beings in the world.

Oh, wait. No. I mixed those up. Silly me.

At the end of the day, PvP just isn't very important in terms of the transition to Guild Wars 2. Everything about the progression from one game to the next centers on the PvE world, the lore, the characters, the nations, the races, the history. That means that the number of times you have beaten another group in GvG or slain a bunch of randomly selected berks with your crew of equally randomly selected berks isn't some monumental, unparalleled glory. It stands equal to vanquishing the entire known world or mastering every mission or getting really, really drunk. Each gets a statue.

This suggestion wouldn't do anything to make the game better. All it would do is add to the sense of elitism for a certain subset of players, because other people would have to go through their format to "earn" a full hall. Quite frankly, that's not a sufficient reason. That's just people being annoyed that their favorite toy isn't being placed on a pedestal.

^ Typical example of one who values pretty pictures over gameplay.

drkn · Oct 17, 2010, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

^ Typical example of one who values pretty pictures over gameplay.

Shriketalon is right. In terms of transition to GW2, what a PvP reward should be? The only thing possible is stronger weapon and that would make GW2 unbalanced since the very beginning, so it's pretty much impossible. What else?

Quote:

you were completely missing the point of his post or avoiding it on purpose to make what you were saying seem valid which it shouldn't be.

I tried to point out that it doesn't matter how one accomplished his statue, since from market stand, one Zaishen title AND a lot of PvE titles can be bought; moreso, selling 200 keys to someone yields 1kk gold, enough to get you run through things you don't like or don't want to waste time on - so that you can focus on PvP. I'm talking about gameplay and possibilities to avoid unwanted grind, not elitist showing off 'me > you, i earned everything myself grinding 1209984 hours'.
I also believe that the real problem is in possibility of buying the Zaishen title, not that every more-PvE-oriented player did it. I for one bought maybe 20 keys out of those 200 and my PvP is pretty much limited to JQ and seasonal arenas. You don't have to be strict PvPer to get the Zaishen title, same as you don't have to be hardcore PvEr to get Hero / Protector statues. Yet PvPers have the same possibility of buying their PvE statues as PvErs have regarding the Zaishen.
So it's all about stupid elitism. PvPers get mad when someone buys their PvP title, even if it's Zaishen and the PvP community should disregard it and focus on others. I'm glad that the PvE side is rather glad there's someone to get money from for runs than being angry 'cause you bought your sweet tooth title, you should farm 10k sweets yourself!'.

Shriketalon · Oct 17, 2010, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

^ Typical example of one who values pretty pictures over gameplay.

If gameplay is what is prized, there is no need for some trivial shiny object in the Hall, as it is just a "pretty picture". Yet apparently, it is worth causing a ruckus, as this thread illustrates.

This isn't about gameplay, it's about validation. Each crowd wants their time and effort to be rewarded, to have their accomplishments congratulated. The cause of complaint is the perception by the PvP crowd that their deeds are somehow deemed less worthy because they are not specifically cherished, and the closest thing (those three points) can be bought via currency.

This opinion, however, is lacking perspective. The Hall of Monuments is primarily a PvE creation, meant to bridge the gap between one tale and the next. It's focus centers upon Tyria and its story, the memories of heroes we fought beside, battles we won, forces we overcame, equipment we forged, trials we endured. Any individual achievement is given equal status, regardless if it is fighting in the Hall or charting the entire map.

Ergo, it's not a matter of PvP being diminished, it's a matter of everything being weighed equally. Pound for pound, zone for zone, there isn't as much PvP content to measure against the larger PvE world. As a result, more titles and totems are devoted to the latter.

The entire hall doesn't require exploring every single tiny niche of the Guild Wars experience, neither to achieve the full scope of item unlocks or to gain 50 points in total. That's by design, because they didn't want everyone to grind out Legendary Defender of Ascalon just to get the final title. Ergo, since PvP is a smaller part of the overall game, it is possible to complete the Hall without it.

This is not a bad thing.

Boring and Pointless · Oct 17, 2010, 11:07 AM // 11:07

The biggest problem isn't that the Zaishen title is apparently a pvp title, in the same way that Legendary Guardian is also a pvp title, but the fact that it's worth 3 points.

Should have been:

Hero r6+ (1 point)
Glad R3+ (1 point)
Champ r3+ (1 point)
All three (2 points)

Not sure why this went to 8 pages.

It's also very comical to see people actually try to claim that the Zaishen title is infact a pvp title.

Sethellington · Oct 17, 2010, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Right, because PvP is just like the armed forces. Risking your life for Tyria, defending it from all manner of threats, fighting evil armies and slaying evil gods, hunting down insidious traitors and besting otherworldy forces. Putting their lives on the line while overpaid athletes flail about in a mud pit, doing the same thing again and again while claiming they are the greatest beings in the world.

Oh, wait. No. I mixed those up. Silly me.

At the end of the day, PvP just isn't very important in terms of the transition to Guild Wars 2. Everything about the progression from one game to the next centers on the PvE world, the lore, the characters, the nations, the races, the history. That means that the number of times you have beaten another group in GvG or slain a bunch of randomly selected berks with your crew of equally randomly selected berks isn't some monumental, unparalleled glory. It stands equal to vanquishing the entire known world or mastering every mission or getting really, really drunk. Each gets a statue.

This suggestion wouldn't do anything to make the game better. All it would do is add to the sense of elitism for a certain subset of players, because other people would have to go through their format to "earn" a full hall. Quite frankly, that's not a sufficient reason. That's just people being annoyed that their favorite toy isn't being placed on a pedestal.

Well put.

stupid 12 chars

RedStar · Oct 17, 2010, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Should have been:

Hero r6+ (1 point)
Glad R3+ (1 point)
Champ r3+ (1 point)
All three (2 points)

Hmm you forgot codex/hero

drkn · Oct 17, 2010, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Shriketalon pointed out one important thing - HoM is lore-linked, it's PvE by design, it's story-based. PvP isn't. If it were World vs World, there might been a statue for winning against other server; even a statue for winning Jade Quarry is more story-connected than grinding up Gladiator title.
And out of all PvP titles, Zaishen is the easiest to get for the widest group and yields 3 points - just to note, no other statue gives you so much.