Curse

diabiosx · Dec 16, 2010, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Hi I hope Anet reads this. At the moment Soul Twisting is essentially invunerable to most interupts(dchop and dshot being exceptions). When spirits are interupted under Soul Twisting, they just get instantly recharged which in my opinion is very overpowered. There are many builds in HA that don't carry enough interupts to counter Soul Twisting and as a result, they all have been removed from play(mainly spikes, and some pressure spike builds). PD which is very common in HA(but not in every build) can only disable the spirit recharge by 12seconds(@14dom) what this means is that the mesmer has to be in PD mode almost entire game if he wants to shutdown all of Soul Twisting's spirits. Spirit control through killing is not a counter to Soul Twisting. Consume Soul an elite spirit control skill and the fastest way to destroy enemy spirits can not even match the rate in which Soul Twisting poops its spirits. Bottomline 1skill called Soul Twisting is destroying many builds that were once ran in HA

jazilla · Dec 16, 2010, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Blackout works as well. You can also use Signet of Humility to Cripple ST. I think it's more fair to let the Rit cast those Binding Rituals because of their long cast times. Diversion the ST? Take a Psychic Distraction Mesmer? Psychic Instability would keep them on their rear ends too. Simple Thievery would be a great way to get rid of them. IDK, I think there are a lot of options to disable an ST, or at least to keep them in check.

diabiosx · Dec 16, 2010, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

Blackout works as well. You can also use Signet of Humility to Cripple ST. I think it's more fair to let the Rit cast those Binding Rituals because of their long cast times. Diversion the ST? Take a Psychic Distraction Mesmer? Psychic Instability would keep them on their rear ends too. Simple Thievery would be a great way to get rid of them. IDK, I think there are a lot of options to disable an ST, or at least to keep them in check.

Blackout will only prevent the ST rit from casting one time. when blackout wears out, he can proceed to cast that same spirit. You need to be close to the person to use blackout so no.

Signet of humility is better used on pnh since the type of builds that has Signet of humility is a pressure build. Spike builds dont carry Sig of Hum and if they do, disable ST dont do much since the duration of ST when used is 37seconds so no.

Diversion ST is nearly impossible since the time it is used will vary from 15seconds to 37seconds which is a long window to predict anything. so no

PI will only KD the rit for 3seconds and the spirit will be instantly recharged so they will just cast it once they get up so no
Simple Thievery is a bad skill so no

Killed u man · Dec 16, 2010, 04:40 PM // 16:40

In my opinion, this is just a glitch that should be fixed, therefor:

/signed

jazilla · Dec 16, 2010, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

Blackout will only prevent the ST rit from casting one time. when blackout wears out, he can proceed to cast that same spirit. You need to be close to the person to use blackout so no.

You are making it sound as if the ST Rit is really over-powered which it isn't at all. Blackout would totally work to keep an ST shutdown, so idk what you are saying really. Most spirits in PvP take quite a few seconds to cast, so even if they have ST, you can disable their skill set for 6 seconds with only 14 Domination. It then would take them 3 seconds to "poop" out another spirit as you so eloquently put it. You also have interrupts in the meantime to keep them from using Binding Rituals which are the easiest skills in the game to stop. I really don't understand what the problem is. BO--> Interrupt(pick one) --> Interrupt again if necessary -->BO.

The problem seems to be that you don't want to try and come up with way to counter ST at all. I am giving you a totally viable way to counter ST.

Coast · Dec 16, 2010, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Jazilla, that way ur giving up ur mesmer and the mesmer has more important stuff to do than just camp 1guy.

cantalus · Dec 16, 2010, 05:40 PM // 17:40

signed

though anet staff obviously don't play HA either, otherwise soul twisting would've been nerfed ages ago

jazilla · Dec 16, 2010, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

You dont know what I am saying because you obviously you dont play HA. Ranger grasping earth you, rit runs away there you cant blackout. Rit tells warriors that hes gonna pull you away from your monks, KD bam you are dead.

I do see what you are saying, but if you can't interrupt 3 second casting times, then what does it matter? Yes, you get an instant recharge of Spirits with ST. You are missing my point. If the Rit gets d-shotted he will think twice about immediately plopping another spirit down. Your original argument made it sound as if that's exactly what they would do. There are so many ways to keep Spirit Rt's in check. Also, if the Rt is such a priority for your team, then figure out a better way than "ST Rt's are too powerful, nerf the skill". They need a viable way to be included in the format.

You basically said that ST's are so powerful they need a nerf, but not powerful enough that a copy of Diversion could be set aside for them because you need that for the PnH. So which one needs the nerf; The PnH or the ST? Why not just nerf the PnH by your logic so that you can use Diversion on ST? Either that or come up with something to counter the ST.

Killed u man · Dec 16, 2010, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Jazilla, the fact that you have to dedicate an intire character to shut down only half a bar on an enemy player (cuz this isn't even assuming you'll get brutals) means there is something wrong.

Also, shutdown has never been an excuse for a bar not being overpowered.

By your reasoning, no build was ever overpowered, because you could always "interrupt" or "diversion" it. It just doesn't work that way, you should be able to see this.

The fact of the matter is you've got a bar with redicilous damage (brutals) AND redicilous defence. Both of which require hard shutdown, and they're not even on the enemy backline, but rather midline. This means that even if you shut down the ST, you still got 2 healers with spike immunity (assuming they're smart and running the dark escape rits), a PnH/prot who can camp a 16 AL shield and a ranger pooping hyper-offensive spirits to worry about.

The only time bbsway isn't holding, is when noone is running it, just to proove a point. Guilds like MATH, MoO and others always go in, straight to HoH (cuz they steamroll every team on every map in about 2 minutes) and can do this for hours straight.

BBsway is overowered.
Soul Twisting fuels part of it.

jazilla · Dec 16, 2010, 06:17 PM // 18:17

So it's important enough to get a nerf, but not important enough to have some skills on one bar of your team team to counter it? Got it. You are basically saying there is no way to counter ST so it needs to be changed? I may not have played much HA, but I have a firm enough grip on skill mechanics to know that isn't the case.

If it is such a problem that it needs a nerf, wouldn't that mean that until said nerf happens, you need to devote more resources on your team's bars to counter it? Without berating me for not playing enough HA, explain to me why this isn't the case. I am open to learning about HA more.

Aeons · Dec 16, 2010, 06:25 PM // 18:25

signed.

There definitely needs to be a PvP version of this skill.

diabiosx · Dec 16, 2010, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

So it's important enough to get a nerf, but not important enough to have some skills on one bar of your team team to counter it? Got it. You are basically saying there is no way to counter ST so it needs to be changed? I may not have played much HA, but I have a firm enough grip on skill mechanics to know that isn't the case.

If it is such a problem that it needs a nerf, wouldn't that mean that until said nerf happens, you need to devote more resources on your team's bars to counter it? Without berating me for not playing enough HA, explain to me why this isn't the case. I am open to learning about HA more.

Think of any spike build that doesnt have a PD mesmer in it. Soul Twisting will own every one of those builds.

Lanier · Dec 16, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeons

signed.

There definitely needs to be a PvP version of this skill.

It wouldn't have to be a split, since this change would hardly affect PvE

Missmelady · Dec 16, 2010, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Though I agree that the ST rit is a tad op because of the instant recharge. The teams that require the use of one are easily beaten by proper tactics and a half decent prot(which are few to none in ha now adays)..

Teams that use a ST Rit- bbway, a new form of Iway and that is really about it.

Instead of countering a ST rit why do you not think about countering a bbway or an iway. A well timed pd or diversion on a bb war can shut him down for a decent amount of time...

Bringing ward stab on your snare is also a viable way to shut down bbway's as long as your snare is not a complete idiot.

As far as actually Killing a team with a ST rit. None of his spirits should be up for more then 1 or 2 seconds anyway if you are using a fire ele or any kind of ele. target spirit- nuke- change target nuke- target spirit again-nuke.

Displacement being up-- HAVE EVERYONE even your monks spear a target... 1 spear from each person is normally enough to drop the displacement instantly.

Spike build without pd---- If you are running a spike and face a bbway the ST rit should be pointless.... Drop w/e defensive spirit he has up and u have what 3 seconds to spike him.................. Honestly I feel the lack of brains in pvp nowadays is horrible.....

cantalus · Dec 16, 2010, 07:39 PM // 19:39

seems to me that some of the posters don't play HA, Coast, Fierce and Borat, yes, the rest of you.....

diabiosx · Dec 16, 2010, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missmelady

Though I agree that the ST rit is a tad op because of the instant recharge. The teams that require the use of one are easily beaten by proper tactics and a half decent prot(which are few to none in ha now adays)..

Teams that use a ST Rit- bbway, a new form of Iway and that is really about it.

Instead of countering a ST rit why do you not think about countering a bbway or an iway. A well timed pd or diversion on a bb war can shut him down for a decent amount of time...

Bringing ward stab on your snare is also a viable way to shut down bbway's as long as your snare is not a complete idiot.

As far as actually Killing a team with a ST rit. None of his spirits should be up for more then 1 or 2 seconds anyway if you are using a fire ele or any kind of ele. target spirit- nuke- change target nuke- target spirit again-nuke.

Displacement being up-- HAVE EVERYONE even your monks spear a target... 1 spear from each person is normally enough to drop the displacement instantly.

Spike build without pd---- If you are running a spike and face a bbway the ST rit should be pointless.... Drop w/e defensive spirit he has up and u have what 3 seconds to spike him.................. Honestly I feel the lack of brains in pvp nowadays is horrible.....

You obviously dont understand what kind of limitations ST is giving to HA builds. So not only do all builds in HA have to spec for rupts,AoE(yes bbsway does have AoE),snares,running, song, hex remove, condition remove, now we have to spec very specific characters to counter ST. What this means is only limited amount of builds will be sucessful in HA. When 1skill alone is killing sooo many build varieties it needs to be nerfed, seriously use your brain. Now lets go on to show how your interpretation of how to beat BBsway with a spike doesnt work. First you have to give me a spike build example and i can show your how BBsway will dominate it. But lets go with Rspike which was the most popular spike. Rit goes behind obstructions, displacement spam GG. Invoke Lightning spike. Spam Shelter Union GG. 8seconds to spam both spirits, 9second spike interval GG resign.

miriforst · Dec 16, 2010, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Yes st is a bit annoying since it nullifies the drawback of spirits (being long casttime and recharges) and by casttime i mean the inability to be rupted (except dshot, thanks god (but even then, weapon of warding)

but this is maybe because of me playing magebane and meeting bbway and that freaking rit not only ignores magebane but also glitch the bridge making it impossible for me to hit XP

/sign

FoxBat · Dec 16, 2010, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I don't think this is going to stop BBSway, but it is a sensible nerf that does not require a skillsplit.

Shadar · Dec 16, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

/signed

however the problem is, unless someone comes up with a way to abuse it in GvG, nothing's gonna happen.

Master Fuhon · Dec 16, 2010, 09:22 PM // 21:22

GvG solved a similar problem by nerfing the offense behind the compressed damage spike that allowed for an extra healer to be taken, and it was almost two years ago that it was discussed (took time for discussion to take effect in concrete balancing changes):

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/m...t10348878.html

Hammer knockdown + flail dagger warrior infests Random Arenas more than actual Assassins last few times I've been in there, despite the fact that most people in casual pvp don't use keyboard macros or even reprogram default buttons. Meanwhile, Soul Twisting Ritualist defensive capabilities are somewhere in Fort Aspenwood irrelevance. Theoretically, things like Infuriating Heat, Brutal Weapon, and NR/Tranq provide major offensive contributions, but still require a functional combination of skills to work. Brutal Weapon uptime is notoriously poor in HA (1-2 of 3+ possible people have it on them in the heat of combat due to energy usage), so it's not like that can be blamed for everything. It's part responsible for both strengthening the spike and putting the ritualist in range of attackers.

Last patch weakened assassin triple dual attack combos. A hammer knockdown is stronger than most dual attacks, and you can open with it while taking Flail. Even comparing this to a really strong disable and spike chain, a Wastrel's Collapse sin, the sin has lower survivability, no damage on his 2 second knockdown opener, and a weaker IAS (but a higher critical and double strike rate). That Warrior dagger frontliner was a clear miss from balancing perspective, unless the goal was to keep someone's stream of Fame and Glad points intact; because it's impossible to deny that HA/RA live on a backbone of title farming.

PvP melee have been reorienting themseles around Conjures or knockdowns in recent times. In these types of builds they are centerpieces of the offense. Some builds allow for melee to still do both, and these should be evaluated first. In the builds that have started to fall out of favor in PvP, melee are usually a more versatile way to pack a deep wound (interrupts, damage, removals). But still, Heroes Ascent is too casual of an 8v8 format for skill power related issues to get fixed most of the time, so someone may have succeed with a GvG variant before anything happens on this.