Curse

ensoriki · Dec 25, 2010, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Make these lines fit in more as support.
There are utility skills but due to either the costs,activation,recharge or scaling some are hard or simply impractical to use. While many professions have useless skills I suggest that the balance team goes in and changes the values or function of some skills in these lines.

An improvement would surely give assassins an extra dimension, where as currently those assets that would much be loved are out of reach due to being ineffective or unreasonable for the amount of investment needed.
Some of the skills are not bad at all, but wouldn't mind a boost.
Sure every profession has it's unused/crappy skills, but thats no reason not to suggest

.

Suggestions for skills.
Entangling Asp - change to "Spell. Inflicts Poisoned conditions (5...17...20 seconds). If this followed a lead attack the foe is also knocked down and this skill recharges 50% slower " recharge reduced to 10. Essentially so that if they meet the conditions for the knockdown the recharge is still 20s, but otherwise it's just a poison skill on 10 recharge. The skill itself wouldn't surpass other means of poison. The ranger poison skills such as Apply Poison and Poison arrow are much easier to spread and cost less energy, while necromancers poison last longer and usually comes with other affects as well.

Enduring Toxin - an extra pip of health degeneration and apply to adjacent foes.

Blinding Powder - Can't this be 15 recharge? The skill does need to follow an off-hand attack

Mantis Touch - Couldn't this be a touch skill at 8 recharge? instead of a ranged spell at 15 recharge? It would fall in line quite nicely with the other mantis skills, sporting a good cripple duration and no intricate requirements other than a preceding lead attack.

Shameful Fear - one second cast.

Shroud of Silence - Function change? For 4 seconds, the next time target foe uses a spell, that spell fails and takes an additional 5...15...17 seconds to recharge." recharge reduced to 20s. The skill then becomes basically diversion but for spells only.

Siphon Strength - Scale it so the damage reduction starts as 14..41..50 instead of 5..41..50. The changed scaling makes it easier to fit on the bar if it's more effective for less investment.

LifeInfusion · Dec 25, 2010, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Is this a serious suggestion or trollbait? If it's the former, then I would have to say the numerous imbalances created by both attribute lines need to be taken into account.

When factions was released, Shadow Prison, Dark prison, Death's Charge, etc all created a huge change in the way the game was played due to a big "screw your positioning" effect.

Even today, AP is used widely, so is Shadow form, shroud of distress, WoTA, etc. The deadly arts conditional skills do 100+ armor ignoring damage easily if the condition is met as well.

The only skills that aren't really powerful are due to powercreep on the other assassin skills: Mantis Touch
Entangling Asp (sin caster)
Enduring Toxin
Lift enchantment (still better than most enchantment removals)
Shameful fear (cast time)
Mark of Insecurity and Siphon Strength are pretty strong debuffs, just not compared to assassin skills
Way of Perfection
Way of the Fox

RedDog91 · Dec 25, 2010, 11:43 PM // 23:43

There's much of an issue.
Most bad Shadow Art / Deadly Art skills are still better at what they do than most good similar skills of other professions

MithranArkanere · Dec 26, 2010, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Assassins are clearly oriented to take out single targets. In PvP, they don't need any improvements.

They could use some PvE splits that improve how they deal with multiple enemies, though.

FoxBat · Dec 26, 2010, 12:31 AM // 00:31

The "instagib" aspect of shadowsteps was seriously neutered (rightly) with the aftercast adjustment. I'd like to see the recharges on most offensive shadow steps to come down some since they aren't really spike tools anymore, but that would probably just see hammer warriors slotting death's charge again before anything else. Shadow walk is also very effective as it is.

ensoriki · Dec 26, 2010, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Is this a serious suggestion or trollbait? If it's the former, then I would have to say the numerous imbalances created by both attribute lines need to be taken into account.

When factions was released, Shadow Prison, Dark prison, Death's Charge, etc all created a huge change in the way the game was played due to a big "screw your positioning" effect.
Even today, AP is used widely, so is Shadow form, shroud of distress, WoTA, etc. The deadly arts conditional skills do 100+ armor ignoring damage easily if the condition is met as well.
The only skills that aren't really powerful are due to powercreep on the other assassin skills: Mantis Touch
Entangling Asp (sin caster)
Enduring Toxin
Lift enchantment (still better than most enchantment removals)
Shameful fear (cast time)
Mark of Insecurity and Siphon Strength are pretty strong debuffs, just not compared to assassin skills
Way of Perfection
Way of the Fox

Naturally it should go without saying I am not suggesting making the best SA & DA skills better.
Better scaling or a function change for skills so that they serve a purpose at being good for a reasonable investment which would would be around 5-9 in an attribute for a DM assassin depending on how much CS or DM he would run.
Some of these skills may be technically good, but are not so practically.
The suggestion is not to improve every skill in the lines, that would be ludicrous and unreasonable, but to increase the general quality of both attributes. Giving some skills better scaling or a functionality change.

The numerous imbalances these lines have had were in my thought process to begin with, which is why nothing specific other than an improvement was said.

Quote:

Theres no reason for this when we have ways to make powerful utility & attack skills usable/ineffective by other professions.
If something has to change in Dagger Mastery or Critical strikes because of their power, thats fine, but improve the use of these suggested attributes on a primary assassin.

I realize now there was a typo as it should read attack skills unusable
. One of the issues in the past was the power these skills would have on other professions, however we do not necessarily have to make skills usable by other professions, and there are multiple skills that discourage use outside of their primary. Failure rates for example.

Im suggesting a general improvement of the lines, not for Caster sins, or Shadow formers, and tbh Shadowsteps was not even in my train of thought. Im talking about the other skills, those that would serve a purpose but either are impractical (Way of Perfection) or their investment is simply too much to be considered viable.

Improving scaling/function issues on some skills would open up more options to the profession, but also add another dimension to them to be increasingly better team players.

*lemming* · Dec 26, 2010, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Neither of those lines was designed very well. I'm curious to see what reworks you think would actually make them usable, since I'm assuming that you have no good ideas.

jazilla · Dec 26, 2010, 02:49 AM // 02:49

I really wish that they made shadow stepping in and out the primary focus like it was intended to be. It would be great if sins were required because of mechanics to jump in do some damage or apply a few conditions or hexes and then be forced to bounce away. as it is now, that isn't the case. the concept of the assassin is like communism: great on paper, terrible in practice.

gremlin · Dec 26, 2010, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I really wish that they made shadow stepping in and out the primary focus like it was intended to be. It would be great if sins were required because of mechanics to jump in do some damage or apply a few conditions or hexes and then be forced to bounce away. as it is now, that isn't the case. the concept of the assassin is like communism: great on paper, terrible in practice.

Best quote this year

Yes they should make those skill lines better and the same could be said of many classes.
They have learned a lot about character types and skill balancing that hopefully will bear fruit in GW2 but this game is unlikely to see such wide ranging changes.

I have long thought that putting the main strength of the class in its primary skill line was essential to game balance.
In this way when a skill or build becomes over powered that power is limited to the primary and isn't used ad nausium on all other classes.

Shriketalon · Dec 26, 2010, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Neither of those lines was designed very well. I'm curious to see what reworks you think would actually make them usable, since I'm assuming that you have no good ideas.

Well, as far as PvE goes....

1) Better recharges. 45 seconds on a shadow step is absurd. Thirty isn't much better.

2) Better targeting. Instead of "to target ally", "to target enemy", and the ridiculous "to target spirit", change most of them to "shadow step to target. If the target is an enemy/ally, XYZ."

3) Better skill distribution. Crippling Dagger is a Deadly Art, but Caltrops are Shadow Arts? Shadow Fang is DA, but Beguiling Haze is not? Redistribute the skills better; DA is for half-range spells, lots of conditions, and debilitating hexes, while SA is for shadow step mastery, defensive abilities, and a few augmentations.

4) More "counts as a lead/offhand/duel attack". Most of the Deadly Arts line should be able to form intricate spell chains, including an elite or two that act as half-range duel attack spells to reach Impale. Several item-based Shadow Arts skills should become Deadly Arts, along with placement in the spell chain.

5) Shadow Steps that count as lead or offhand attacks. Spells like Shadow Fang could let you leap to the target and act as an opening strike at the same time, thus getting you through a chain much faster.

6) Faster, more active dodges. The Viper's Defense/Smoke Powder Defense skills are excellent, but they're only useful for a single attack every thirty seconds. Cheaper abilities with less effect and faster recharge that are useful for immediate evasion would be nice.

Lanier · Dec 26, 2010, 04:08 PM // 16:08

I kind of like the above ideas (for PvE of course... in PvP sins are fine). Assassin utility is sadly lacking, and SA and DA are the lines that those utility skills should be in. Its pretty sad when I actually have trouble filling up dagger builds with assassin skills, due to the lack of good utility skills available. With other profs, I usually have trouble deciding what to put on my bar and what I'll have to leave out, but with assassins, its tough just finding skills to put on the bar.

I like a lot of your suggestions, especially #5 for getting more use out of shadowsteps. In PvE, each shadowstep needs to have some secondary use that makes it viable (aka not a conditional heal), and they also really need to have their recharges reduced. Another change that I would add is getting rid of the aftercast on shadowsteps. I don't know if this can be split for PvE, but even if it can't, are shadowsteps really that much of a problem anymore in PvP? For those PvPers out there - would eliminating the previously added aftercast imbalence sins by a large amount in PvP?

ensoriki · Dec 26, 2010, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Neither of those lines was designed very well. I'm curious to see what reworks you think would actually make them usable, since I'm assuming that you have no good ideas.

I'm trying to avoid giving my own biased opinion on exactly how a skill should work. Curious as you may be I have no reason to share my ideas, as people would then just attack suggested skills that look poorly thought out instead of the concept, which is to improve the attributes. I'd rather avoid being the subject of scrutiny for pitching a specific suggestion, it is better then to suggest something as general as this. I don't see much point in giving my own specific skill suggestions, if the attributes were to be improved, it would be by balance team, not I.
Other than time & financial restrictions, what would be wrong with having the balance team go in to improve & quality check the two attributes?

reaper with no name · Dec 26, 2010, 06:18 PM // 18:18

This is Sardelac Sanitarium, not riverside or the campfire. Where are the actual suggestions?

Give me some, and then we'll see.

ensoriki · Dec 26, 2010, 07:08 PM // 19:08

The suggestion is the topic, Improve the two attribute lines.
Not every suggestion has to be specific such as, "well lets make Mantis touch deal X damage,daze,blind,cripple,poison and disable skills for 40 seconds".

The skills that aren't holding their weight or are impractical aren't so difficult to find unless your requesting a list of the skills that need an improvement.

Faer · Dec 26, 2010, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Not every suggestion has to be specific

Constructive ones do.

LifeInfusion · Dec 26, 2010, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Just remember that PVE mobs also get the same changes. So if you suggest something ridiculous like 5-15 recharge shadowsteps expect to get WTF tele-spiked by dredge, and other assassins (even more so when they get reduced recharges and cast times). Also, Shadowsteps screw positioning so it rewards stupid gameplay like ST rits (which my hero can run better than some human rits) and SY! imbagons (which don't prot versus armor ignoring dagger attacks). I can't say anything if there are no actual suggestions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Well, as far as PvE goes....

1) Better recharges. 45 seconds on a shadow step is absurd. Thirty isn't much better.

2) Better targeting. Instead of "to target ally", "to target enemy", and the ridiculous "to target spirit", change most of them to "shadow step to target. If the target is an enemy/ally, XYZ."

3) Better skill distribution. Crippling Dagger is a Deadly Art, but Caltrops are Shadow Arts? Shadow Fang is DA, but Beguiling Haze is not? Redistribute the skills better; DA is for half-range spells, lots of conditions, and debilitating hexes, while SA is for shadow step mastery, defensive abilities, and a few augmentations.

4) More "counts as a lead/offhand/duel attack". Most of the Deadly Arts line should be able to form intricate spell chains, including an elite or two that act as half-range duel attack spells to reach Impale. Several item-based Shadow Arts skills should become Deadly Arts, along with placement in the spell chain.

5) Shadow Steps that count as lead or offhand attacks. Spells like Shadow Fang could let you leap to the target and act as an opening strike at the same time, thus getting you through a chain much faster.

6) Faster, more active dodges. The Viper's Defense/Smoke Powder Defense skills are excellent, but they're only useful for a single attack every thirty seconds. Cheaper abilities with less effect and faster recharge that are useful for immediate evasion would be nice.

1) Average battle lasts about 15-20 seconds before all this ridiculous damage came about (factions days did not have SoS, AoHM, vanguard sin spam, etc.). Shadow steps were nerfed from 15-20 seconds recharge to 30 for PvP.
If they drop cooldown, then they have to drop the heal on Death's charge. Dark prison would have to be 3/4 second cast or something. If anything I would like Death's retreat/Shadow meld/return/recall to be more usable so that sins without critical agility (i.e. ones that don't stay in melee range 24/7) are playable. Right now you have ebon escape though. There is no shadow step that's 45 recharge other than shadow of haste and shadow fang... (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_step)

* Recall (PvE): 5 energy , 0.75 cast, 8 recharge <-- this has no secondary effect and has to be maintained, so 15 energy is rather steep.
* Return (PvE): 10 recharge, but it is usable now as is
* Shadow Meld (PvE): 5 energy, 10 recharge <-- if you devote an elite slot to something so unusable it better be 5 energy ... this is also unintuitive to use
* Death's Retreat (PvE): 15 recharge
* Swap (PvE): 8 recharge so that Spirit Walk is not the only option

2) The targeting is only random for Viper's defense and Heart of Shadow, which are usually used for mapping.

3) It's pretty ok. Beguiling haze should be deadly arts but Caltrops is a snare (i.e. not used for damage). Deadly arts is for damage augmentation. The only other skill inconsistency is Shadowy Burden. Way of the fox is an enchantment rather than a hex (expose Defenses).

4) Skipping lead is ok, skipping offhand is not. Why? It invalidates Palm strike and most offhand attacks other than fox fangs.

5) Shadow stepping is already extremely powerful, no need to buff it. It's not like it doesn't see use.

6) Those two skills are niche. However, look at shield bash and burning shield. Then tell me it still needs buffing.

Shriketalon · Dec 27, 2010, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

5) Shadow stepping is already extremely powerful, no need to buff it. It's not like it doesn't see use.

No, it's really not.

Positioning isn't very important in PvE, at least in terms of offense. It is ridiculously easy to just tiptoe around enemies to get at their squishy friends, because the AI cannot bodyblock worth anything. Positioning is incredibly powerful for defense, however, and that's a problem. Plant an invincible tank at a chokepoint, and you can mitigate the damage of the entire enemy force. The ability for something, anything to reliably pierce that kind of cheap defense would make the game far more interesting.

Oh, one another minor thing.

2) I'm not talking about random versus direct targeting. I'm talking about how the use of different skills for "shadow step to an enemy" and "shadow step to an ally" are uselessly niche. Or Spirit Walk, which is absolutely pathetic, given that it allows you to shadow step....to target spirit. Amazingly useful, yes?

It would be far better to have the skills read "shadow step to target", allowing you to use them offensively against enemies to get past their lines, or defensively as a quick escape by zipping over to your allies. That would also free up several skills for more interesting effects (Aura of Displacement and Shadow Meld do the exact same thing, except one to an ally, one to an enemy, both costing an elite slot).

ensoriki · Dec 27, 2010, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

Constructive ones do.

So what specific state what I wish for a skill to do?
Is that how you believe I should do it?

LifeInfusion · Dec 27, 2010, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Positioning isn't very important in PvE, at least in terms of offense. It is ridiculously easy to just tiptoe around enemies to get at their squishy friends, because the AI cannot bodyblock worth anything. Positioning is incredibly powerful for defense, however, and that's a problem. Plant an invincible tank at a chokepoint, and you can mitigate the damage of the entire enemy force. The ability for something, anything to reliably pierce that kind of cheap defense would make the game far more interesting.

Oh, one another minor thing.

2) I'm not talking about random versus direct targeting. I'm talking about how the use of different skills for "shadow step to an enemy" and "shadow step to an ally" are uselessly niche. Or Spirit Walk, which is absolutely pathetic, given that it allows you to shadow step....to target spirit. Amazingly useful, yes?

It would be far better to have the skills read "shadow step to target", allowing you to use them offensively against enemies to get past their lines, or defensively as a quick escape by zipping over to your allies. That would also free up several skills for more interesting effects (Aura of Displacement and Shadow Meld do the exact same thing, except one to an ally, one to an enemy, both costing an elite slot).

Well if you have an SoS, ST (awesome), or restor rit , shadow step to target spirit is basically "shadow step to target ally that doesn't move".

Offensively, death's charge is a strong skill. It allows you to avoid scattering of mobs = mark of pain nuke or A-rage/Balth-aura/splinter/etc.

Aura of displacement is out of favor due to powercreep. Before it was used with Golden Phoenix and a dual attack.

Regardless, all the shadow stepping is moot when you have Critical agility + Shroud of distress.

Faer · Dec 27, 2010, 04:36 AM // 04:36

In short ensoriki, yes.

For a longer answer, "make it better" is not a constructive suggestion. As such, it is hardly valid at all. Your new list of specific skills in need of tweaking is a step in the right direction, but you still aren't saying much other than "this sucks, fix it". We really prefer that all threads in Sardelac Sanitarium and discussion therein remain as constructive as possible, so please try to work on it some more.

If your ideas are bad, people can still talk about them and build from them. If you have no ideas at all, then you shouldn't be suggesting something in the first place. And truthfully, to believe that something needs fixing in the first place, you must have at least some idea of how it could be better. To perceive a problem, you must have an issue with a specific function or mechanic, and a desire to see it changed in a certain way. On the surface this may manifest itself as feelings of something just plain sucking, but if you look a little deeper than that you'll find what you (and we) are really after.