Curse

Gennadios · Dec 29, 2010, 03:29 AM // 03:29

I personally enjoy spying on random trade partners and people I witness selling high end items. Mostly to give myself a sense of the percentages of players that will be sporting which reward items in-game.

So far I've only encountered 1 50/50, but it's entirely possible I was dealing with alt accounts alot of the time.

If anything, this kind of strengthens OP's argument, but it's relatively harmless IMO.

helloeveryone · Dec 29, 2010, 12:50 PM // 12:50

/sign. agree that it should be made private.

but there are some interesting things u can find out about others using it, i have used it to discover

1. people looking for "LFG 90+show stones, no noobs, SC" only to discover he have not cleared UW once

2. Gold cape guild players in RA screaming, spamming and calling others noobs in RA when they don't even have a single PVP title and is full of PVE title lolz

but yep, make it private so players don't disgrace themselves

Prince Rogrs Nelson · Dec 29, 2010, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

O holy thread resurrection.

I'm not sure why you come off at me with guns blazing like this? You're not exactly backing up your statements by anything other than claiming to be a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer myself but I do hold a master's degree at law, although I prefer to let arguments speak my case and not titles. Pretty much the way I do in game.

I'm norwegian and I think I stated this earlier and this is in fact how norwegian privacy law works. Being that Anet is an american company(?) they are assumed to meet the european criteria as defined in the 'safe harbor' principles. I know other countries have lower standards for right to privacy but that should not detract from mine.

The displaying of minipets is just a sidetrack, don't get lost on that issue. You can't very well make lists of behaviour made by people in public either - that is, registered to their names or in a way that can identify them.

If you think I'm wrong you're welcome to present some arguments. If you're going to flame and troll I doubt I'll dignify it with another response.

I take issue with the phenomenon (all too widespread on the net) of people with no practical legal education incorrectly trying to explain principles of law.

So I don't need any arguments. I simply need to point out why yours fails, which I've done already. But I will reiterate:

Even if you are a believer in the theory of natural law (and a debate of legal philosophy or legal theory would be really out of place on this board), you simply cannot state, with absolutely no support, that we all have some inherent right to privacy. That is simply NOT THE CASE.

"Rights" are a construct of law. For one to have a right, that right must be somehow codified in the law and supported by authority.

For your argument to hold ANY water, you must be able to say "we all have a right to privacy, created by/found in/etc." Even if you want to say our right to privacy comes from God's will (I'm not a religious guy myself, but hey, to each his own), it must come from somewhere.

Think about it - to whom do you turn when someone violates one of your rights? Yep! Your only recourse is to turn to those (i.e. government authorities) who guaranteed you that right in the first place.

So to get back OT...we have no right to privacy in the in-game achievements of our GW characters or accounts. Any right we COULD have would be seriously tempered by...well, by anything we freely do in game.

Even here in the US, the standard as applied across most states involves a "reasonable expectation of privacy" in an activity. What level of privacy can you reasonably expect when you do something in a virtual world, which is being constantly observed by hundreds, even thousands, of people you don't actually know?

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 30, 2010, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Rogrs Nelson

I take issue with the phenomenon (all too widespread on the net) of people with no practical legal education incorrectly trying to explain principles of law.

So I don't need any arguments. I simply need to point out why yours fails, which I've done already. But I will reiterate:

Even if you are a believer in the theory of natural law (and a debate of legal philosophy or legal theory would be really out of place on this board), you simply cannot state, with absolutely no support, that we all have some inherent right to privacy. That is simply NOT THE CASE.

"Rights" are a construct of law. For one to have a right, that right must be somehow codified in the law and supported by authority.

For your argument to hold ANY water, you must be able to say "we all have a right to privacy, created by/found in/etc." Even if you want to say our right to privacy comes from God's will (I'm not a religious guy myself, but hey, to each his own), it must come from somewhere.

Think about it - to whom do you turn when someone violates one of your rights? Yep! Your only recourse is to turn to those (i.e. government authorities) who guaranteed you that right in the first place.

So to get back OT...we have no right to privacy in the in-game achievements of our GW characters or accounts. Any right we COULD have would be seriously tempered by...well, by anything we freely do in game.

Even here in the US, the standard as applied across most states involves a "reasonable expectation of privacy" in an activity. What level of privacy can you reasonably expect when you do something in a virtual world, which is being constantly observed by hundreds, even thousands, of people you don't actually know?

lol.. For a second there I thought you actually had some arguments to back it up. Claiming to be a lawyer simply doesn't do you see. Being a lawyer is obviously not a guarantee of quality.

First of all right to privacy is found in codified law in most countries. It is especially strong in Europe and as I explained to you the same guarantees should be enforced to europeans by the US under the 'safe harbor' principles. I'm pretty sure there are articles of law concerning this in the US although obviously I can't point them out for you. Here is the european foundation btw.

Second you bring up the concept of natural law. Whether a right to privacy is considered a natural law or not is somewhat irrelevant to our situation as I've already shown you it is indeed codified law. I would still argue that it is also part of natural law. You show a glaring lack of knowledge on these fields of law, are you sure it's not you that is the fish out of water? It is a common idea that there are indeed principles derived from natural law, we find these codified in many human rights corpus'. For instance the european convention on human rights article 8 or the international covenant on civil and political rights article 17.

To answer your last question you can read what I wrote earlier, it was imo a lengthy enough explanation. As an example for your mind, what if they decided to make public actual time spent in game? That is, your /age. Wouldn't you agree that some people might want to keep that information confidential? What of chat logs that happen in game? The right to privacy IS there, but whether it can be sidestepped due to consent or necessity is another argument. All of which I explained earlier.

And to settle this thing about no legal education... I have in fact "majored" in human rights law and privacy law both. You also show an ignorant attitude by dismissing anyone not legally trained. Especially on these fields much of the limits of law are determined by "common conceptions". You may be familiar with the concept of legal standards, what the 'right to privacy' entails is not the same today as it was 20 years ago and will continue to evolve.

Prince Rogrs Nelson · Dec 30, 2010, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Being that Anet is an american company(?) they are assumed to meet the european criteria as defined in the 'safe harbor' principles. I know other countries have lower standards for right to privacy but that should not detract from mine.

Anet is an American company.

Why would you assume they meet any European standards?

Furthermore, why SHOULD they meet some insane European standard of a right to privacy that is codified only in the 2nd largest corpus of unenforced law in the world? You know EU directives are only binding to states, not private actors, right? And by "binding" I mean "rather weakly suggested." Citing the ECHR for something you think Anet should do is like me claiming the first bank of New Zealand needs to honor the bylaws of the lower Manhattan chapter of the Knights of Columbus.

Ultimately, as I've said now, MULTIPLE times, by participating in the world of the game, you've agreed to abide by the rules of that world. If anything but information related to game achievement were being shared, then the laughable notion of a right to privacy (again, the ECHR? Good lord, did your classroom education prevent you from reading the news in the past decade?) MIGHT factor in.

I have real work to do. But if you want me to try to explain that whole "authority" bit to you again, let me know, and I'll try again tonight, with shorter words.

Lord Mip · Dec 30, 2010, 03:03 PM // 15:03

I think Sankt Hallvard made a perfectly reasonable plea there, completely by the standards you asked for so why is it so hard then to abide by it? Why do people always have to try and get their point across against all possible odds?

I myself am in favor of making the HoM Calculator more private. Yes, I enjoy watching other people's Hall of Monuments and I don't need to hide my own, but I can understand it is a kind of information people would want to keep private. I don't think it would be a very hard thing to develop as well.

So as a final verdict: /signed.

BenjZee · Dec 30, 2010, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Maybe we could have the option of lockin our HoM to outsiders, set to private by default

That way everyones happy...i spose?
Depends how the calculator is set up and how it retreives information from the database

Prince Rogrs Nelson · Dec 30, 2010, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mip

I think Sankt Hallvard made a perfectly reasonable plea there, completely by the standards you asked for so why is it so hard then to abide by it? Why do people always have to try and get their point across against all possible odds?

I myself am in favor of making the HoM Calculator more private. Yes, I enjoy watching other people's Hall of Monuments and I don't need to hide my own, but I can understand it is a kind of information people would want to keep private. I don't think it would be a very hard thing to develop as well.

So as a final verdict: /signed.

Dude...he started talking about the right to privacy defined in the ECHR. That's neither reasonable, nor up to the standards he set in his original comments.

If you don't want people to see your stuff, don't put it in your HoM. If you don't want them to see what's already there, start deleting characters.

But let me be clear: I have NO PROBLEM with people who wish this were private. I don't share that wish, but I think it's perfectly reasonable.

I have a HUGE problem with idiots who come along talking about Anet violating some mythical legal right to privacy by doing this. Freaking Europeans all mock the US for being so litigious, and yet you cry legal over petty stuff like this? Gimme a freaking break, ya babies.

Lord Mip · Dec 30, 2010, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Rogrs Nelson

Dude...he started talking about the right to privacy defined in the ECHR. That's neither reasonable, nor up to the standards he set in his original comments.

Why is that unreasonable? The majority of the player base is in Europe so why would it be odd to take European law into account? I'm not saying it's legally possible to make Arenanet abide by that, since they're in America, and I do not pretend that I know how all those legal structures work since I didn't study law, but it doesn't mean that Arenanet shouldn't have the moral duty to protect information people don't want to come out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Rogrs Nelson

If you don't want them to see what's already there, start deleting characters.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work this way. Even if you delete a character, the Monument accomplishments will still be tracked and saved. For instance: My Dervish had a Destroyer Scythe, and I deleted her, but the Scythe is still in my HoM.

Highlander Of Alba · Dec 30, 2010, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Well, on the fence for this but,

If you look at Aion (NCsoft) when you logged into there official site with your account

you were dispalyed on your avatar and anyone could not only look at your char but also see what you were wearing ect (they may have changed this lately).so not only your rank/armour ect,but all your ahivements on that particular char.

Prince Rogrs Nelson · Dec 30, 2010, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mip

Why is that unreasonable? The majority of the player base is in Europe so why would it be odd to take European law into account?

The majority of the GW player base is in Europe? I don't believe you. Prove it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mip

I'm not saying it's legally possible to make Arenanet abide by that, since they're in America, and I do not pretend that I know how all those legal structures work since I didn't study law, but it doesn't mean that Arenanet shouldn't have the moral duty to protect information people don't want to come out.

I don't take issue with the "moral duty" notion. I disagree with the conclusion, but the notion is reasonable. The poster I was addressing didn't talk about a moral duty, though. He talked about the law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mip

Unfortunately, it doesn't work this way. Even if you delete a character, the Monument accomplishments will still be tracked and saved. For instance: My Dervish had a Destroyer Scythe, and I deleted her, but the Scythe is still in my HoM.

If you REALLY care about it, it most certainly DOES work.

Delete all of your characters and stop playing the game. Your character names will no longer be associated with an account, and your account will no longer have any character names associated with it. If you came back to the account, sure, the hall would probably still be there, with everything in it that you put there. But if you leave the account inactive, and toon-less, other people will have nothing to search for on the calculator.

Snograt · Dec 30, 2010, 06:46 PM // 18:46

In a nutshell: All data contained within Guild Wars is the property of ANet/NCSoft who are free to do whatever they wish with it.

You bought a license to play Guild Wars - you did not purchase any data.

Prince Rogrs Nelson · Dec 30, 2010, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snograt

In a nutshell: All data contained within Guild Wars is the property of ANet/NCSoft who are free to do whatever they wish with it.

You bought a license to play Guild Wars - you did not purchase any data.

But what about their RIGHT TO PRIVACY!?

/sarcasm

Bellatrixa · Dec 30, 2010, 08:48 PM // 20:48

You could also argue that favour announcements are invasions of privacy as well on the same logic as HoM...

Just sayin' ;D

Also as was mentioned above, having something in your HoM doesn't necessarily mean that you still have it. I know people who have sold on their mini pets, salvaged weapons and armour... Hacking someone based on their HoM is pretty silly as you don't know for sure if it's an active account and all the stuff is still there or if it's someone who achieved whatever goal they wanted and quit the game until GW2 comes out. What good is hacking an account which simply has heroes with upgraded armour and titles other than selling on the account which I doubt most hackers would really do.

A11Eur0 · Dec 30, 2010, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Rogrs Nelson

The majority of the GW player base is in Europe? I don't believe you. Prove it.

This. Methinks someone's talking out of their posterior orifice.

Zenzai · Dec 31, 2010, 11:30 PM // 23:30

The purpose of the HoM is to show off. If you are being harassed for not completing parts of it, report the users who are doing it, ignore them and find some other group who's big enough not to give a shit about that.

Hyperventilate · Jan 01, 2011, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenzai

The purpose of the HoM is to show off. If you are being harassed for not completing parts of it, report the users who are doing it, ignore them and find some other group who's big enough not to give a shit about that.

Or y'no.. get a better HoM. But that is neither here nor there and I agree.

If you're getting harassed over your HoM, a simple ignore list resident will fix that right quick. It isn't hard to get around people who deliberately attempt to get under your skin.

Lord Mip · Jan 01, 2011, 02:00 PM // 14:00

I am basing my statement of the European playerbase being larger than those of other continents on the following data:

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...t=980&limit=10

While there can be a lot of factors that make that the European guilds are in such an abundance, it may also be a numbers thing. Remember that there's an enormous French and German player base in GW that never even visit this forum. GWG is not representative for the whole community.

DragonRogue · Jan 02, 2011, 03:42 AM // 03:42

/Not Signed

For one obvious reason that others seem to not have noticed. The last thing anyone here needs is another password to remember. A password on a new website, that may have security breaches not yet noticed, allowing hackers yet another way into an account. Because face it, most people always use the same password for everything they do. IE NCSoft master account hacks. We all know that the backdoor there led to many loosing their AION accounts and, I dont care what anyone thinks, has led to people loosing their GW accounts as well.

Privacy in a game is a silly thing to be worried about, when you are running around in a public arena.

Prince Rogrs Nelson · Jan 02, 2011, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mip

I am basing my statement of the European playerbase being larger than those of other continents on the following data:

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...t=980&limit=10

While there can be a lot of factors that make that the European guilds are in such an abundance, it may also be a numbers thing. Remember that there's an enormous French and German player base in GW that never even visit this forum. GWG is not representative for the whole community.

I could leave our guild tomorrow and go start a Euro guild if I wanted.

All this data means is that Euro guilds have a better PvP reputation, and/or they're currently over-represented in the top 1000. Nevermind the fact that you're showing me GvG from the present "anemic" era. A lot of the original top guilds and players have long-since abandoned the format and the game (this is what a number of old-school pvpers tell me at least).

The ONLY thing that will back up your absurd statement is if you present server and IP data, for a period of at least 6 months, showing more discrete European log-ons than North American.

Oh...but then there's the rumor that, by anecdote, at least, the vast majority of bots log on in Europe...

Ultimately, though, you missed my most important point. It's pitiful to start citing freaking Euro human rights "law" (it's not even legitimate law in EUROPE FFS) to pressure Anet to make the HoM private. Especially considering you people are always talking trash about people in the US suing each other.

It's a joke, but less funny than PATHETIC. Give it up.