Curse

Loviatar · Nov 05, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Most of the titles in question just rely on earning points, so make those pointss easier to get like in GWEN.

Problem solved... use gwens system in other campaigns.

the only problem is that everybody wanting account based or easier/quicker does not have a clue..........period.

the grind titles were put in for the specific purpose of taking as much time/gold as possible per character/title.

they are MEANT TO BE TIMESINKS

they will not change just to give hardcore farmers account wide salvage/lockpick bonuses

Snow Bunny · Nov 05, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I love you Loviatar.

Marry me?

wu is me · Nov 05, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

I really wouldn't mind if the grind titles were made easier, since i really cbf maxing them, and yes the barriers to extra character creation are reduced.

But the problem with making the titles easier is that the titles as they are would have less prestige.

Making the suggested titles account based, would preserve(perhaps even enhance) the prestige of each tier of the title ( provided that the cap is also increased by an acceptable level ) as well as reduce the barriers to playing more than one character.

They'll still be time sinks, etcetc, but you would progress them by playing more than one character.

BlackSephir · Nov 05, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

they will not change just to give hardcore farmers account wide salvage/lockpick bonuses

Damn, too bad you forgot it's not only salvage/lockpick bonuses. Oh well, guess you must've missed NF and GWEN grind.

freekedoutfish · Nov 05, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

the only problem is that everybody wanting account based or easier/quicker does not have a clue..........period.

the grind titles were put in for the specific purpose of taking as much time/gold as possible per character/title.

they are MEANT TO BE TIMESINKS

they will not change just to give hardcore farmers account wide salvage/lockpick bonuses

I agree these titles work a certain way for a reason, ive been against this idea from the start. But since people are still winging about it and wont accept that its their choice to grind these titles...

...then keep the titles as they are and just make them easier to earn.

lyra_song · Nov 05, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

I really wouldn't mind if the grind titles were made easier, since i really cbf maxing them, and yes the barriers to extra character creation are reduced.

But the problem with making the titles easier is that the titles as they are would have less prestige.

Making the suggested titles account based, would preserve(perhaps even enhance) the prestige of each tier of the title ( provided that the cap is also increased by an acceptable level ) as well as reduce the barriers to playing more than one character.

They'll still be time sinks, etcetc, but you would progress them by playing more than one character.

Theres no such thing as an in game barrier that prevents people from playing more than one character.

The only barriers are time available to the player, and the willingness of the player to play.

freekedoutfish · Nov 05, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

I really wouldn't mind if the grind titles were made easier, since i really cbf maxing them, and yes the barriers to extra character creation are reduced.

But the problem with making the titles easier is that the titles as they are would have less prestige.

Making the suggested titles account based, would preserve(perhaps even enhance) the prestige of each tier of the title ( provided that the cap is also increased by an acceptable level ) as well as reduce the barriers to playing more than one character.

They'll still be time sinks, etcetc, but you would progress them by playing more than one character.

Hang onnnnn!!

So you admit maxed titles have prestige and they shouldnt be devalued. Yet you dont care about giving a lvl1 character atleast KOABD and completely devaluing what it stands for?

You cant maintain the prestige of maxed out title [b]and[/] make it account based, because the entire point of a pve skill is to show what that individual character has achieved!

If you make them account based, they mean nothing! People dont know whether you achieved them on that certain character, or a different one and they cant judge if your worthy of that prestige as that character.

And again with your barrier nonsense...

..is Anet forcing you to max these titles every time you create a new character? No their not! Can you play the game and progress without maxing them everytime? Yes you can!

There are NO barriers to creating new characters. Its you who is choosing to max those title... no one else!

Loviatar · Nov 05, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Damn, too bad you forgot it's not only salvage/lockpick bonuses. Oh well, guess you must've missed NF and GWEN grind.

got them all on multiple accounts.

over all the sites/forums/threads/different suggestions only the fatmers friends are constant and as stated right here a few pages earlier the bonus to make money is important not the title.

examples

Quote:

cellardweller
When the point is to remove the unfair advantage currently being given to single character players, this wouldn't achieve anything. The other way round would be fine though - give the effects of the title, but not the ability to display it.

Quote:

CHunterX
Flip-flop that around. I'd rather have the stat bonuses and not be able to show the title. I couldn't give a flying RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO what title is under my characters if I don't get the bonuses from them.

Anet from past history will not give bot/hardcore farmers that break

wu is me · Nov 06, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Hang onnnnn!!

So you admit maxed titles have prestige and they shouldnt be devalued. Yet you dont care about giving a lvl1 character atleast KOABD and completely devaluing what it stands for?

You cant maintain the prestige of maxed out title [b]and[/] make it account based, because the entire point of a pve skill is to show what that individual character has achieved!

If you make them account based, they mean nothing! People dont know whether you achieved them on that certain character, or a different one and they cant judge if your worthy of that prestige as that character.

Sorry if I've been unclear, but I'll try to explain that again. I agree there would be some prestige loss, if the all the points contributing to the grind based titles were amalgamated into a account based title from all characters in the account. However it should be possible to vary the cap on the titles, or add tiers to make the maxed title equivalently prestigious

As for your notion that they'd mean nothing when made account based, I cannot see why this is the case, please enlighten me. AFAIK the hero title/glad title/commander title etc are very prestigious and are also acct based.

edit: and its not "giving" a lvl1 character KOABD as much as a lvl1 has earned a "legendary hero"

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

And again with your barrier nonsense...

..is Anet forcing you to max these titles every time you create a new character? No their not! Can you play the game and progress without maxing them everytime? Yes you can!

There are NO barriers to creating new characters. Its you who is choosing to max those title... no one else!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Theres no such thing as an in game barrier that prevents people from playing more than one character.

The only barriers are time available to the player, and the willingness of the player to play.

What i mean by barriers is this: Consider, a player who has 1000 hours over 1 year to play the game.
That player has the following options:
create 8 characters with 1 maxed title each
create 4 characters with 2 maxed titles each
create 2 characters with 4 maxed titles each
create 1 character with 8 maxed titles
The player has to choose between prestige and flexibility. The opportunity cost of variety is prestige. This is what i mean by barriers to playing more than one character.

With the account based system, these barriers will be some what relaxed, and the player's options would look more like....
create 8 characters with 2 maxed titles each
create 4 characters with 3 maxed titles each
create 2 characters with 4 maxed titles each
create 1 character with 5 maxed titles
which means theres more incentive to play a variety of characters

lyra_song · Nov 06, 2007, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

What i mean by barriers is this: Consider, a player who has 1000 hours over 1 year to play the game.
That player has the following options:
create 8 characters with 1 maxed title each
create 4 characters with 2 maxed titles each
create 2 characters with 4 maxed titles each
create 1 character with 8 maxed titles
The player has to choose between prestige and flexibility. The opportunity cost of variety is prestige. This is what i mean by barriers to playing more than one character.

The game doesn't force you on which characters to play, how many characters to play, or how much time you spend per character.

This is the player's decision on how to use their time. Don't blame the game if you are somehow compelled to play 17 characters (like me!) and never seem to have enough time (i work a full 40 hours) to play all of em.

If you chose to have so many characters, that is your choice. However, man up and face the facts of having so many types characters which means:
-multiple replays through the storyline
-multiple armor purchases
-multiple weapon purchases
-multiple skill/elite skill acquisition

I won't even get started on having multiple accounts.

"The opportunity cost of variety is prestige".
I'll modify it a little, to what I feel is more correct.
"The opportunity cost of variety is time".

If you can't handle so many characters, and are just overwhelmed with the things you seem to "have to do", stop playing so many characters.

Stop driving yourself crazy and just enjoy the damn game. The titles aren't that important since they progress through normal gameplay.

edit: oh and if you are having such a hard time playing, and feeling like its a huge grindy burden, just stop. relax. play something else. come back later. Guild Wars won't leave you.

wu is me · Nov 06, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

The opportunity cost of variety is prestige

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I'll modify it a little, to what I feel is more correct.
"The opportunity cost of variety is time".

dude...you forgot the assumption that the player in the analogy had concrete time constraints, and couldn't say.. oh maybe 1 more hour, your modification is completely nonsensical. This is a realistic assumption given that most of us don't game all day.

(edit: lol i can see the comment of "something for nothing" coming up , but seriously, OPEN your MINDS people, there is an entity greater than the character, even greater than the account! its the player! All it is is allowing the "player" to more freely masquerade around in different outfits, and have different professions in pve zones.)

Also, I never said i didn't enjoy the game as it is now, although i rarely pve these days. That doesn't meant that I would be oblivious to possible improvements to the game.

And it would be very nice if you could produce argument against the proposal (if you have any) thats better than what you said, which was essentially:
"Its your choice, take it like a man or leave it",
cos that is major fail.

Its analogous to boeing releasing the dreamliner without wings, and saying fly in it or f*ck off, if it crashes, you chose to fly in it =P.

Should a mother ever have to choose which of her children to save, when she's out of food? Would you as a wealthy person say to her "you chose to have children, man up"?

Sure those were more dramatic examples, and are not perfectly analogous to this situation. But i hope you understand, Just because you have a choice of walking away from the service, doesn't mean that the service can't be improved.(which should be bluntly obvious, but anyway...>>)

freekedoutfish · Nov 06, 2007, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

.....As for your notion that they'd mean nothing when made account based, I cannot see why this is the case, please enlighten me. AFAIK the hero title/glad title/commander title etc are very prestigious and are also acct based.

edit: and its not "giving" a lvl1 character KOABD as much as a lvl1 has earned a "legendary hero"

PvP titles are account based because there is absolutely no skill in building a character with max gear and weapons. You can just click your fingers and make a lvl20 char with max gear.

PvP characters are ten-a-penny because their so easily disposed off when people get bored. The only point to pvp is to increase your titles and ranks, which is carried accross all your characters.

PvP titles in PvE also mean nothing! So what if your good at pvp, that doesnt mean your good at pve. They are completely different game styles. It takes more then a good fighter to play pve.

PvE is completely different!

You have to build your character from lvl1 upwards and spend hours, weeks, months and years getting them to certain places and max titles.

PvE titles show the individual effort of that character which has took that amount of time to build. Thats why you cant have a KOABD at lvl1 because that KOABD hasnt earned those 5+ titles themselves as a character.

You might be a great warrior and have earned those KOABD titles, but why should your lvl1 elemental get to show it? you could be a completely rubbish elemental and not deserve that prestige.

And dont give me this "but its safe to assume when you reach lvl20 you have experience and are a good player", because that is rubbish. Ive known and seen lvl20 characters of all professions who are useless.

So why should any of those useless pve characters share a KOABD title which another character which they might actually be good with?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

What i mean by barriers is this: Consider, a player who has 1000 hours over 1 year to play the game.
That player has the following options:
create 8 characters with 1 maxed title each
create 4 characters with 2 maxed titles each
create 2 characters with 4 maxed titles each
create 1 character with 8 maxed titles
The player has to choose between prestige and flexibility. The opportunity cost of variety is prestige. This is what i mean by barriers to playing more than one character.

With the account based system, these barriers will be some what relaxed, and the player's options would look more like....
create 8 characters with 2 maxed titles each
create 4 characters with 3 maxed titles each
create 2 characters with 4 maxed titles each
create 1 character with 5 maxed titles
which means theres more incentive to play a variety of characters

Its like talking to a brick wall! You are choosing to max those titles out everytime you make a new character. Its not Anet or anyone elses fault if you do that.

"The player has to choose between prestige and flexibility."

What has flexibilty got to do with this? this isnt a job and your not asking for flexy time so you can go see the footy match!

It just a game! If you want to grind these titles everytime then go ahead, if you have the time and the patience then great. But why?

I find this whole thing hard to understand because my main character has lasted me 2 years of gameplay and im only just NOW starting to finish every little quest. Ive played him in every campaign and the expansion and yet I still have the odd thing to do.

Thats playing nearly every night for 2-3 hours!

Do you never finish things on one character before you make a new one?

Do you rush things and then start again?

If you dont like repeating stuff, then dont rush your characters and take your time and play it casual. If I can get 2 yaers worth of gameplay into just one character, then it astounds me how you can be worried about maxing titles on 8 characters!

wu is me · Nov 06, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Sigh... if i can't get through to you even after that, I give up lol.
My opinions are on the table. I've never said they were right- in the sense that their implementation was essential, only that their reasons were watertight.
My criticisms of people opposed to this proposal (yea i admit its bias, only criticising those opposed =P) have been based purely on flaws in your reasoning.
I've said it all at least once, so im over this thread

so long, and thanks for all the fish, fish.=P

cellardweller · Nov 06, 2007, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Its like talking to a brick wall! You are choosing to max those titles out everytime you make a new character. Its not Anet or anyone elses fault if you do that.

There is no valid choice at the moment. You either grind the titles and have a competive advantage over those that don't or don't grind them and play at a disadvantage yourself. Unless these titles are made trivial to achieve (or seperated from in game effects) then the level playing field that made gw such a good game is gone and all you have is another boring rpg.

freekedoutfish · Nov 06, 2007, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

Sigh... if i can't get through to you even after that, I give up lol.
My opinions are on the table. I've never said they were right- in the sense that their implementation was essential, only that their reasons were watertight.
My criticisms of people opposed to this proposal (yea i admit its bias, only criticising those opposed =P) have been based purely on flaws in your reasoning.
I've said it all at least once, so im over this thread

so long, and thanks for all the fish, fish.=P

I totally respect your want for this and I appreciate that it must suck to have to earn these titles each time, but I cant get away from the arguement that your choosing to do these things.

I cant help but always come back to this idea that you knew creating a new character meant repeating the same content or tasks to get the same end result.

You and others have argued that certain grind didnt exist when you made your characters, which is true. But again its choice! You also knew the content of the game was liable to change and new content was due to be added. There was always a possible that content to add more grind. You would have known that.

Did Anet promise new content wouldnt include new titles which require grind? No!

Also how many people have created new characters after these grinding titles were added? can they argue they didnt know any better? no!

The main issue though is "what is grind" and "what titles come under that catergory". Those are questions which are completely subjective and open to debate. A debate which will never get answered because some people dont mind doing certain tasks repeatadly while some people hate it.

Something can only be considered grind is the entire community agrees it is.

This thread is pointless in the respect that we're debating an issue that will not be agreed on. Grind is part of all MMOs and RPGs to one expect or another and some people like it and some dont. MMOs and online RPGs are subject to change and new content, and we all know this.

Bottom line is that if you dont want any grind at all, and you dont like content being continually changed or added then dont play an MMO/RPG. Play a static offline game which doesnt change. Dont play games which require you to repeat tasks for end results.

Most stuff in GWs requires your to repeat something to achieve the end result. That mechanism has existed from day one. Whether it be exploring, trading, farming, missions, quests, collecting gold and materials.

Just because titles were added which had a more apealing end result, is no reason to start saying "oh wait, no I dont like grind!!".

Alot of these titles dont even have a great end result either, or the end result isnt important or critical. It is all just "I want". But the "I want" factor has existed since day one aswell. We all wanted elite armor and elite weapons from day one, and we didnt mind grinding for the materials did we? Alot of people wanted Obsideon armor and weapons from day one and they didnt mind grinding did they? Alot of people wanted to complete all missions and bonus and normal and didnt mind the grind did they?

So what changed!

Why now, all of a sudden is the grind connected to titles such as issue?

Because some increase the strength of pve only skills?
Because some make you a bit more lucky with lock picks?
Because some get you access to armor and weapons at certain ranks?
Because you get a rainbow pheonix with 15 max titles (or what ever it is)?

How is any of that different to "wanting" elite armor or weapons? It isnt!

It may be nice to have more powerfull pve only skills, it may be nice to have GWEN armor or weapons, it may be nice to be luckier or have a pheonix pet.

But its also nice to have elite armor and weapons! Its nice to have obsideon armor (I imagine). Its nice to have completed the titan quests and all the SF quests. Its nice to have completed all the elite zone quests.

But do we "need" all that stuff? No!!!

Ive gone off on a tandum here, sorry! But my point is that we will never agree. None of this stuff we grind for is important, but some people want it or and others dont. Some people dont mind the grind and others hate it.

But grind has existed since day one, and nothing has changed. Anet has added anything that didnt already exist or which isnt already inherant in MMOs or RPGs.

By comparison to other MMOs on the market, GWs has very little grind or grind that your forced into doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

There is no valid choice at the moment. You either grind the titles and have a competive advantage over those that don't or don't grind them and play at a disadvantage yourself. Unless these titles are made trivial to achieve (or seperated from in game effects) then the level playing field that made gw such a good game is gone and all you have is another boring rpg.

What advantage do you have over others by maxing titles?

You may have more damage against destroyers or abaddons minions! You may have more armor against the char or extra health or energy! But big deal!

To talk about having an advantage suggest that without having them you are disadvantaged. How are you disadvantaged by not having maxed titles which give certain buffs or increase pve skill strength?

Do you need those buffs to progress ingame?
Can you not complete any quests, missions or dungeons without maxing them out?

No!

You dont need any of the status effects or pve only skill increases to progress ingame. A perfect example is glints challenge. I play that alot and I am usually the only person who uses Alkars acid pve only skill. I am usually the only one with rank 9 drawf, while everyone else can range from 1-6.

Yet the entire team usually manages to complete it.

The sheer fact people can reach that location with just rank1 drawf still is a perfect example that you dont need these titles maxed out. You dont need LB maxed out to finish NF or do the elite zone there. You dont need luxon or kurzick titles maxed out to complete factions or play they elite zones.

So again.. where is the disadvantage?

This is pve, not pvp! It doesnt matter what the other player has or hasnt got. Its their skill and ability which matters. Not their rank in a title or whether they use a pve only skill.

If you sit there thinking "that player has rank9 and I only have rank5, Im at a disadvantage!" Then you dont have a great understanding of pve and you need to rethink your perspective.

JeniM · Nov 06, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

What i mean by barriers is this: Consider, a player who has 1000 hours over 1 year to play the game.
That player has the following options:
create 8 characters with 1 maxed title each
create 4 characters with 2 maxed titles each
create 2 characters with 4 maxed titles each
create 1 character with 8 maxed titles
The player has to choose between prestige and flexibility. The opportunity cost of variety is prestige. This is what i mean by barriers to playing more than one character.

With the account based system, these barriers will be some what relaxed, and the player's options would look more like....
create 8 characters with 2 maxed titles each
create 4 characters with 3 maxed titles each
create 2 characters with 4 maxed titles each
create 1 character with 5 maxed titles
which means theres more incentive to play a variety of characters

So because i like to play one character i deserve 3 less titles for my time?
Another "i like playing this way, make others do it too" thread

I like playing one character and all my time goes on one, i deseve those 8 titles for my time, not to have 3 taken off me because you like a different play style

You play more characters, you have more builds to choose and can get anywhere in game/can farm anywhere on that proffesion
I play one, loose the ability to roll any build but get more on titles
I get 10th of the builds by playing one character, why should my amount of titles be slashed too?

assassin shaun · Nov 06, 2007, 03:28 PM // 15:28

/signed x infinity

brilliant idea i love it!

lyra_song · Nov 06, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeniM

So because i like to play one character i deserve 3 less titles for my time?
Another "i like playing this way, make others do it too" thread

I like playing one character and all my time goes on one, i deseve those 8 titles for my time, not to have 3 taken off me because you like a different play style

You play more characters, you have more builds to choose and can get anywhere in game/can farm anywhere on that proffesion
I play one, loose the ability to roll any build but get more on titles
I get 10th of the builds by playing one character, why should my amount of titles be slashed too?

Thanks for some good insight that has been ignored on this thread.

lyra_song · Nov 06, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

dude...you forgot the assumption that the player in the analogy had concrete time constraints, and couldn't say.. oh maybe 1 more hour, your modification is completely nonsensical. This is a realistic assumption given that most of us don't game all day.

How is my assumption nonsensical when you just said that most of us dont game all day?

If you had all the time in the world, there would be no barrier to creating characters (other than your desire to play).

If total playing time is equal for both players, the amount of time spent per character is equal to the amount of titles that character can gain.

Quote:

(edit: lol i can see the comment of "something for nothing" coming up , but seriously, OPEN your MINDS people, there is an entity greater than the character, even greater than the account! its the player! All it is is allowing the "player" to more freely masquerade around in different outfits, and have different professions in pve zones.)

Theres something even greater than the player. Its called the GAME. I wont agree to breaking the game design just to please some players who don't have the time to play yet want the benefits of that time spent.

It is something for nothing. Thats what it boils down to. You want something to change to benefit "us", using the rationality that its somehow unfair to players with more characters, when the game is COMPLETELY the same for all players (the definition of an equal playing field), regardless of their playing style or time constraints.

Quote:

And it would be very nice if you could produce argument against the proposal (if you have any) thats better than what you said, which was essentially:
"Its your choice, take it like a man or leave it",
cos that is major fail.

It is essentially: Everything has a price, and if you want something, you pay the cost. You dont get a special discount because you got less time to play.

You can't demand the cost be changed to suit your needs or time constraints when those costs are equal to ALL players, regardless of their time or need constraints.

[skill]Frenzy[/skill] gives you increased attack speed. The cost is 5 energy and that your armor is cut in half. It is your decision to carry frenzy or to not carry frenzy. You cant suddenly demand that you want the increased attack speed, but you dont want to lose half your armor. If you want the benefits, you pay the cost.

You can argue if the cost is NOT WORTH IT. Or it takes too long for all players. And we can talk about that, since that is a much more solid argument to talk about and such things do require tweaking.

cellardweller · Nov 07, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

This thread is pointless in the respect that we're debating an issue that will not be agreed on. Grind is part of all MMOs and RPGs to one expect or another and some people like it and some dont. MMOs and online RPGs are subject to change and new content, and we all know this.

Bottom line is that if you dont want any grind at all, and you dont like content being continually changed or added then dont play an MMO/RPG. Play a static offline game which doesnt change. Dont play games which require you to repeat tasks for end results.

Where would we find a game that didn't have any grind...? oh I know - gw before pve skills!

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Most stuff in GWs requires your to repeat something to achieve the end result. That mechanism has existed from day one. Whether it be exploring, trading, farming, missions, quests, collecting gold and materials.

None of which gave you any in game advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Just because titles were added which had a more apealing end result, is no reason to start saying "oh wait, no I dont like grind!!".

The titles that were added didn't add something that gave a more appealing end result, they gave something that corrupted the very skill>time that made Guildwars guildwars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Alot of these titles dont even have a great end result either, or the end result isnt important or critical. It is all just "I want". But the "I want" factor has existed since day one aswell. We all wanted elite armor and elite weapons from day one, and we didnt mind grinding for the materials did we? Alot of people wanted Obsideon armor and weapons from day one and they didnt mind grinding did they? Alot of people wanted to complete all missions and bonus and normal and didnt mind the grind did they?

Vanity armours didn't get 1-400% better than normal armours. PvE skills on the other hand do.

Why now, all of a sudden is the grind connected to titles such as issue?

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Because some increase the strength of pve only skills?

Yes

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Because some make you a bit more lucky with lock picks?

Yes

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Because some get you access to armor and weapons at certain ranks?]

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Because you get a rainbow pheonix with 15 max titles (or what ever it is)?

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

How is any of that different to "wanting" elite armor or weapons? It isnt!

Elite armour and weapons are funcionally equivilent to thier weoponsmith/collector/green equivilents

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

But do we "need" all that stuff? No!!!

Yes we do. As I stated earlier, there is only one need in a game, the need to have fun. Every player that bought guildwars because of the level playing field that existed there has had it ripped out from underneath them. Guild wars is no longer fun with these grindbased game effects in place - this is the simple reason they either need to be reverted or made simple to achieve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

But grind has existed since day one, and nothing has changed. Anet has added anything that didnt already exist or which isnt already inherant in MMOs or RPGs.

Pre-title Grind only let you make cosmetic enhancements. Thats the difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

By comparison to other MMOs on the market, GWs has very little grind or grind that your forced into doing.

The fact that other games have a worse problem doesn't mean it should not be fixed here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

What advantage do you have over others by maxing titles?

You answered your own question...

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

You may have more damage against destroyers or abaddons minions! You may have more armor against the char or extra health or energy! But big deal!

It is a big deal. My warrior has double the energy of someone that hasn't done the grind, summons djinn that do 3 times the damage

To talk about having an advantage suggest that without having them you are disadvantaged. How are you disadvantaged by not having maxed titles which give certain buffs or increase pve skill strength? Shouts that do 4 times the damage, the list goes on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Do you need those buffs to progress ingame?
Can you not complete any quests, missions or dungeons without maxing them out?

No!

You stance is based on the flawed assumption that completion of the game is the goal of playing. The entire point is to have fun. Competitive players cannot have fun while the deck is stacked either in our favour or against it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

You dont need any of the status effects or pve only skill increases to progress ingame. A perfect example is glints challenge. I play that alot and I am usually the only person who uses Alkars acid pve only skill. I am usually the only one with rank 9 drawf, while everyone else can range from 1-6.

Yet the entire team usually manages to complete it.

And I did THK with henchies, an empty skill bar and no weapons back in the days when it was a tough mission. Neither of which is relevant to the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

The sheer fact people can reach that location with just rank1 drawf still is a perfect example that you dont need these titles maxed out. You dont need LB maxed out to finish NF or do the elite zone there. You dont need luxon or kurzick titles maxed out to complete factions or play they elite zones.

Again completion != fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

So again.. where is the disadvantage?

"I Am The Strongest!" 40 damage at rank 0, 160 damage at rank 10. The disadvantage doesn't get anymore obvious than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

This is pve, not pvp!

The difference is only in your mind. When you kill a scrub TA, you're not competing with them, you're competing with other players in your legue to see who is the best at killing people worse than you and not being killed by people better than you. Its exactly the same in PvE, when you kill a grawl, you're not competing with it you're competing with other players to see who is the best at killing grawl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

It doesnt matter what the other player has or hasnt got. Its their skill and ability which matters. Not their rank in a title or whether they use a pve only skill.

If you sit there thinking "that player has rank9 and I only have rank5, Im at a disadvantage!" Then you dont have a great understanding of pve and you need to rethink your perspective.

You like playing non competitively, and thats fine, but don't try to force that method of play on others.

I'll give you a real world example, because you don't seem to understand how other people play. Golf is a PvE game just like guildwars. These skills are the equivilent of letting people play off the girly tee if they hit 100000 balls at the driving range, then having new course records set because of it (competive missions). When you complete a round, you'll never know whether you're doing better or worse than the average (eg completing tombs in under 30mins), and if you're really good and you don't do your 100000 drives you might miss out on a sponsorship deal (eg ursanway in doa). The real kicker come in that if you ever changes courses (characters) you need to hit another 100000 balls at the driving range.