Curse

Chocolate_Prayers · Jan 05, 2011, 01:46 AM // 01:46

In all honesty, the way things are heading with everyone crying for something to be nerfed for some silly reason or another, chances are that nothing will be nerfed since any nerf will cause even more nerd rage than there already is, and the "few" people that are left on Guild Wars will QQ even more about not being able to do PvE.

Another way to look at it is that this skill has had the current functionality for quite some time now, and the Developers have not made any indication that this functionality is incorrect or otherwise unintended. Therefore there is no real need to nerf this skill.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

As for "balance"... Balance is a point of view. For Example:
"Scissors are Overpowered and imba, Rock is well balanced." - Paper

For those who still claim that certain skills should be nerfed into oblivion, there are enough useless (or unusable) skills out there already, why make the pile any bigger?

Xiaquin · Jan 05, 2011, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

If Anet can't/won't make areas doable by the common pugs or average player using an average hero team then they had better keep the runners.

Rewards are an issue, but locations on the Zaishen rotation are packed with people, so there is no lack of players, only a lack of healers. Runners hurt the game by allowing people to skip the whole playing part; it would be interesting to know how many healers take the run rather than risk pugs. I have pugged as a monk, it can be extremely frustrating, so when there's an easy button teasing in local chat...

But specifically in my case, watching (perhaps good) players join up with a runner is just soul-crushing. It's like being Indiana Jones, slicing through dense jungle and narrowly escaping a dungeon while your friends got a helicopter ride and make it back with treasure and not a scratch on them.

HigherMinion · Jan 05, 2011, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Rewards are an issue, but locations on the Zaishen rotation are packed with people, so there is no lack of players, only a lack of healers. Runners hurt the game by allowing people to skip the whole playing part; it would be interesting to know how many healers take the run rather than risk pugs. I have pugged as a monk, it can be extremely frustrating, so when there's an easy button teasing in local chat...

But specifically in my case, watching (perhaps good) players join up with a runner is just soul-crushing. It's like being Indiana Jones, slicing through dense jungle and narrowly escaping a dungeon while your friends got a helicopter ride and make it back with treasure and not a scratch on them.

no lack of healers for ZQs, and this is off-topic!

Mcsnake85 · Jan 05, 2011, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

Please, spare me your nonsense. You are taking an attribute that can be defined over a finite set of people and turning it into a generalization.

Allow me to do the same.

The only people who want DwG and other gimmicks to exist in this game are those who want everything handed to them. They do not want to employ strategy to overcome challenges, but instead they would rather button-mash their way to success. They want to take the easy way out by exploiting overpowered skills that were poorly implemented in order to avoid any possible hardship.

See, two can play at that game.

Skills are required to push 1-2-3-4, how many sins fail every day?lol a lot...go in pug uw and see,or go in fow that is quite easy.
Maybe 1-2-3 was easy before the nerf,but now isa different thing...
I dunno all this rage in ppl that want farm...They changed the skill?well, why we must refuse to use them?Wth seriously,ppl pretend to run uw in tactic way with defy pain and nukers ele?NO SENSE...
As other ppl say,they nerf dwg and another skill raise,nothing change and again ppl post qq against it...really we need play with only standard attacks?
Dwg work good and it is popoular because it can be runned on all classes, low cost - low cooldown and nice damage, even a war can run it, that make the game doable for all,even for ppl that never tried DoA.
And btw there is no sense in stop god mode or 100000 damage second,because GW is one of the few games that have "standard" weapons/armors and you can get "full power/stats" with few k...ppl grind on "skins",to be cooler than others...untill ppl dont understand this we get a lot off nosense qq and rage in posts.
And my question is still up,it is not true that ppl are jelous when other get the same thing that they got?

Bright Star Shine · Jan 05, 2011, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mcsnake85

Skills are required to push 1-2-3-4, how many sins fail every day?lol a lot...go in pug uw and see,or go in fow that is quite easy.
Maybe 1-2-3 was easy before the nerf,but now isa different thing...
I dunno all this rage in ppl that want farm...They changed the skill?well, why we must refuse to use them?Wth seriously,ppl pretend to run uw in tactic way with defy pain and nukers ele?NO SENSE...
As other ppl say,they nerf dwg and another skill raise,nothing change and again ppl post qq against it...really we need play with only standard attacks?
Dwg work good and it is popoular because it can be runned on all classes, low cost - low cooldown and nice damage, even a war can run it, that make the game doable for all,even for ppl that never tried DoA.
And btw there is no sense in stop god mode or 100000 damage second,because GW is one of the few games that have "standard" weapons/armors and you can get "full power/stats" with few k...ppl grind on "skins",to be cooler than others...untill ppl dont understand this we get a lot off nosense qq and rage in posts.
And my question is still up,it is not true that ppl are jelous when other get the same thing that they got?

I take it you are not english.. Neither am I, but still, I can formulate a decent english sentence..
After some reading this over and trying to understand what you were saying I came to this conclusion:
You say that even using DwG requires skill? Because mashing 1-2-1-2-1-2 do drop spam your DwG is hard? Guess what, you can train a chimp to complete DoA doing DwG.. And I am pretty sure you actually can...
Once a game has become so easy that a trained chimp can complete it's "Elite" areas by mashing on buttons, there are some serious issues.. Even if it is in NM..
And about nerfing DwG will end in a new PUG-way for DoA, that's the entire point, if PUGs would run a physway, or a balanced way that doesn't require too much brainpower either, but still is more than spamming 1 skill, most people would have peace with it, most people just hate it because it's a worse gimmick than Ursan..

Xiaquin · Jan 05, 2011, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

no lack of healers for ZQs, and this is off-topic!

It's not. My entire case rests on the understanding that all power creep is bad and needs to be censured. SF and DwG, in their current states, make a mockery of PvE with what can be accomplished using them.

There's little but excuses and finger-pointing to dismiss the need to nerf this skill. All I've set out to say is that this is the poison that keeps PvE from being fun and interesting. Maybe homogeneous, dull play is fun to people; I don't see it that way. Sorry if I had to go off-topic to point that out.

Mcsnake85 · Jan 06, 2011, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I take it you are not english.. Neither am I, but still, I can formulate a decent english sentence..
After some reading this over and trying to understand what you were saying I came to this conclusion:
You say that even using DwG requires skill? Because mashing 1-2-1-2-1-2 do drop spam your DwG is hard? Guess what, you can train a chimp to complete DoA doing DwG.. And I am pretty sure you actually can...
Once a game has become so easy that a trained chimp can complete it's "Elite" areas by mashing on buttons, there are some serious issues.. Even if it is in NM..
And about nerfing DwG will end in a new PUG-way for DoA, that's the entire point, if PUGs would run a physway, or a balanced way that doesn't require too much brainpower either, but still is more than spamming 1 skill, most people would have peace with it, most people just hate it because it's a worse gimmick than Ursan..

First off all,sorry about my bad english,i said sorry about 5 or 6 post ago and i wrote it..im still learning and im trying to do my best on writing something understandable.
Ok now, i write my last post because im tired,ppl always complain in everithing over and over again,want nerf,want buff...who care?they want complain....Im not saying to you personally,but in general this happens in real life and on videogames too.
Ok,i try expain things (i hope i can do it) :
* In GW you dont need shiny items to be strong,in other games there are stats and bonus that are different from item to items,so you need farm and search for best items, in gw all weapons have same stats, only skin change. So we can say: [Blue] Longsword q9 15-22 inscriptable = [Gold] Crystalline Sword Q9 15-22 inscriptable.
The research of skin is a secondary thing that dont give extra powers to ppl.That mean you are not forced on farm.
* Skills updates come from programmers, if they change something maybe there is a good reason,maybe to give the chance to all to farm end areas,and DwG let all ppl to play ANY KIND of class in DoA.
DwG is not like original SF,you are not immortal,you cant tank and kill 1000 mobs at time,so you need press 1-1-1-1, but you need anyway a base of tactic on how to kill/pull mobs.
* Since the first video games come out i never heard a MOB (or monster, or npc enemy) complain because player was too strong to beat...In pvp its a different thing,you fighting Humans,real ppl behind a pc,so you need be carefull when you create/modify skills and dont make them too powerfull, because ppl can complain AND THEY ARE RIGHT...But really,who care about pve if you kill 1000000 mobs with a skill?AND btw in pve too,mobs can be killed with one skill [Except low level mobs].

I want ask you a thing now,if you are in war and your officer ask you "You prefer a Knife or a M1A1 tank (http://img87.imageshack.us/i/landm1a1usmcoverwatchhi.jpg/)" what you choose?the knife because tank is overpowered?
GW is the same thing,give me the best skill you can to kill the mobs....AND you need a good team anyway.

I said it 3 times,and i say it again UNTILL you prove me im wrong, ppl want nerf because ambrance are dropping too much and they loosing thousand of ectos.
A dude here said
24 * 8.5k = 204k - Now
48 * 4.8k = 230.4k - Before
Ok i can agree,btw how much it take to drop 48e?min 6 uw run with 2 man run (splitting ectos on team), and 24e?half!
And second thing , ectos are becomingthe currency now, its really sad i know, but ppl dont care on HOW much is a ecto,they want ecto and not k..
Think about it :
Vs Req 9 was something like 100k+40e [e=4k] so 260k in total about 2/3 years ago.
Vs Req 9 is 50e Now with e=7.5k is 375k WOW!!! +115k!!

Think about all....sorry again if it is all undertandable,but i hope it is clear what i meaning...
Again /unsigned

Hanok Odbrook · Jan 06, 2011, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

It's not. My entire case rests on the understanding that all power creep is bad and needs to be censured. SF and DwG, in their current states, make a mockery of PvE with what can be accomplished using them.

There's little but excuses and finger-pointing to dismiss the need to nerf this skill. All I've set out to say is that this is the poison that keeps PvE from being fun and interesting. Maybe homogeneous, dull play is fun to people; I don't see it that way. Sorry if I had to go off-topic to point that out.

The problem is that nerfing a particular skill won't change the homogeneous factor. Again, the issue comes into the fact that Elites severely limit the build creativity you can use to be successful. UB and other gimmick builds/skills don't change that, but in certain cases, like UB, it gave people a chance to play with a particular P/S character combo that otherwise would not be usable in such areas.

One of the appeals with an RPG is the ability to customize and personalize a character so that the character is as unique as possible in the game world. When you get to areas that eliminate much of the uniqueness by only allowing a small set of profession and skill combinations to work, that turns a lot of people off, especially the casual player who tends to minimize a lot of changes to their characters as they would rather jump in a play rather than spend hours "stat tweaking."

I see tons of people complain about CC and PvX builds, but when you get right down to it, Elite areas, HM, and even some of the later mishes (especially in Factions), doesn't allow for a lot build variation. So you end up with only a small set of builds that become usable to be successful - you can't get any more CC than that.

Morphy · Jan 06, 2011, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocolate_Prayers

Another way to look at it is that this skill has had the current functionality for quite some time now, and the Developers have not made any indication that this functionality is incorrect or otherwise unintended. Therefore there is no real need to nerf this skill.

Guild Wars' developers are too controversial to use them as an argument for something being fine or not.

Quote:

As for "balance"... Balance is a point of view. For Example:
"Scissors are Overpowered and imba, Rock is well balanced." - Paper

Just because there are people who misuse the term balance doesn't mean there isn't an unambiguous definition of it.

Quote:

For those who still claim that certain skills should be nerfed into oblivion, there are enough useless (or unusable) skills out there already, why make the pile any bigger?

Nerfing skills that force other skills into uselessness will result in those skills being usable again, increasing the skill diversity. In case you're wondering, DwG isn't one of those.

Simath · Jan 06, 2011, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

. When you get to areas that eliminate much of the uniqueness by only allowing a small set of profession and skill combinations to work, that turns a lot of people off

That is not true. DoA does not force players to play a certain profession or use certain skills. PUGs force players to play a certain profession or use certain skills. The blame should be placed on bad and incredibly unintelligent players. This notion that only certain classes or bars are playable is nothing more than a misconception made by individuals who do not understand game mechanics.

Quote:

I see tons of people complain about CC and PvX builds, but when you get right down to it, Elite areas, HM, and even some of the later mishes (especially in Factions), doesn't allow for a lot build variation. So you end up with only a small set of builds that become usable to be successful - you can't get any more CC than that.

Of course they allow for build variation. If players understand game mechanics and play smart, you can typically just grab and go. In pre-UB times there were certain instances where my guild did DoA with a mesmer and a Rt/R who used a bow. Obviously a mesmer was not the optimal choice at the time, but it did not prohibit us from success.

The argument that players cannot get into groups with class x or without skill y is absolute rubbish. If PUGs were not so downright terrible at the game, they would realize that they would not have to rely on gimmicks and exploiting improperly implemented skills in order to achieve success.

Xiaquin · Jan 06, 2011, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

The problem is that nerfing a particular skill won't change the homogeneous factor.

I'm not sure what you mean, when 3-4 roles in DwG-way are built around using this skill. Again, this isn't about fixing the entire problem, it's about fixing one problem. SF is still the bigger issue and always will be, but it doesn't change the fact that DwG is silly powerful and is being abused in high-end play.

Just for the record, I don't play any elite areas, I don't have a vested interest in my own financial security, I'm calling what I see, and maybe if there was more balance, I'd join a pug. Sadly, as it's been pointed out, they need a PvX on how to tie their shoes.

Cuilan · Jan 07, 2011, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

The argument that players cannot get into groups with class x or without skill y is absolute rubbish. If PUGs were not so downright terrible at the game, they would realize that they would not have to rely on gimmicks and exploiting improperly implemented skills in order to achieve success.

People appear to recognize that DWG builds can be flexible with professions (unless you're using Mantra of Frost) with an easy to learn play style for a higher success rate. That sounds fairy intelligent. The problem with gimmicks does not seem to be PUG exclusive. Being less experienced with a particular area doesn't make you less intelligent.

Adam Ko · Jan 07, 2011, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Do people ever wonder if Anet implemented these ridiculously powerful skills for a reason..?

/Not Signed

Cuilan · Jan 07, 2011, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Ko

Do people ever wonder if Anet implemented these ridiculously powerful skills for a reason..?

If that's your reasoning to not support something, it's poor. You don't know what the reason is in order to agree with it or not.

Adam Ko · Jan 07, 2011, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

If that's your reasoning to not support something, it's poor. You don't know what the reason is in order to agree with it or not.

It's not my only reason.

I don't support this nerf for the following:

Not everyone has time to spend doing hours and hours of tedious work on a game. Thus, these players can't enjoy the rewards of the elite areas without spending thousands of platinums to buy them. The main point of this complaint is that it will drop the price of gems and armbraces, and if it isn't, then why would anyone care how well it does?

It allows everyone to enjoy farming elite areas in their own way. If it works, why is that so bad? Because you want things to be harder? If you want things to be harder, then don't use the build yourself and allow people to play the way they choose to.

*lemming* · Jan 07, 2011, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Ko

Do people ever wonder if Anet implemented these ridiculously powerful skills for a reason..?

Yeah, because the individuals in charge of skill balance are extremely competent in their comprehension of ramifications of their decisions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Ko

It's not my only reason.

I don't support this nerf for the following:

Not everyone has time to spend doing hours and hours of tedious work on a game. Thus, these players can't enjoy the rewards of the elite areas without spending thousands of platinums to buy them. The main point of this complaint is that it will drop the price of gems and armbraces, and if it isn't, then why would anyone care how well it does?

It allows everyone to enjoy farming elite areas in their own way. If it works, why is that so bad? Because you want things to be harder? If you want things to be harder, then don't use the build yourself and allow people to play the way they choose to.

Why should they be entitled to the ability to farm elite areas more easily? This isn't a single player game; making things easier affects other people.

Chocolate_Prayers · Jan 07, 2011, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Yeah, because the individuals in charge of skill balance are extremely competent in their comprehension of ramifications of their decisions.
Why should they be entitled to the ability to farm elite areas more easily? This isn't a single player game; making things easier affects other people.

I'd have to say that the ones in charge of skill balance have a tough task of balancing everything in a way to suit the majority of the gaming population.
Since it's impossible to please everybody I believe they have opted (at least lately) to allow the more casual gamer to have access to areas that were previously only available to hardcore gamers.
I believe there was a post in this thread at some stage (can not be bothered to find and quote it) which stated that the majority of the gaming population is becoming ever increasingly casual, and that the Hard-core Gamer is becoming more of a niche population.

In other words, by making skills such as DwG available for casual players to complete DoA in "Drone 1-2-3" mode, they enrage Hard-core players who claim that these areas should be exclusive to themselves.
On the other hand, If skills such as these are not available, casual players will generally not be able to have access to areas such as DoA and potentially become enraged due to feeling excluded from a major part of the game.

Either way, I don't care whether or not this skill gets smacked back into oblivion by the ol' nerf bat, but I seriously doubt that ANet will consider every suggestion to nerf skill X that is posted on these forums.

reaper with no name · Jan 07, 2011, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Disclaimer: I do not particularly care one way or the other at this particular moment in time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocolate_Prayers

I'd have to say that the ones in charge of skill balance have a tough task of balancing everything in a way to suit the majority of the gaming population.
Since it's impossible to please everybody I believe they have opted (at least lately) to allow the more casual gamer to have access to areas that were previously only available to hardcore gamers.
I believe there was a post in this thread at some stage (can not be bothered to find and quote it) which stated that the majority of the gaming population is becoming ever increasingly casual, and that the Hard-core Gamer is becoming more of a niche population.

In other words, by making skills such as DwG available for casual players to complete DoA in "Drone 1-2-3" mode, they enrage Hard-core players who claim that these areas should be exclusive to themselves.
On the other hand, If skills such as these are not available, casual players will generally not be able to have access to areas such as DoA and potentially become enraged due to feeling excluded from a major part of the game.

Elite areas were not designed for "hardcore" players. They were designed for good players. Hardcore does not necessarily mean good.

Hanok Odbrook · Jan 07, 2011, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Disclaimer: I do not particularly care one way or the other at this particular moment in time.

Elite areas were not designed for "hardcore" players. They were designed for good players. Hardcore does not necessarily mean good.

And the game was designed for the casual player. Elite areas do not necessarily mean casual. And casual does not necessarily mean bad. I have seen no handbook that says a Multi-player game must be designed so that certain items should only be attainable by players with a certain amount of skill or time to dedicate to playing. GW at its inception was about breaking the mold and the way of thinking about MMOs. Allowing players of all skill levels an opportunity to experience all of the game at their own pace and in their own manner of play holds true to that ideal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

That is not true. DoA does not force players to play a certain profession or use certain skills. PUGs force players to play a certain profession or use certain skills. The blame should be placed on bad and incredibly unintelligent players. This notion that only certain classes or bars are playable is nothing more than a misconception made by individuals who do not understand game mechanics.

Which appears to be a generalization that you took another poster to task for a couple of pages ago. I, and many others, have been members of an equally number of good PUGs made up of complete strangers as we have bad PUGs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

Of course they allow for build variation. If players understand game mechanics and play smart, you can typically just grab and go. In pre-UB times there were certain instances where my guild did DoA with a mesmer and a Rt/R who used a bow. Obviously a mesmer was not the optimal choice at the time, but it did not prohibit us from success.

The argument that players cannot get into groups with class x or without skill y is absolute rubbish. If PUGs were not so downright terrible at the game, they would realize that they would not have to rely on gimmicks and exploiting improperly implemented skills in order to achieve success.

They allow for some, but certainly not as much variation that you can achieve in the vast majority of the game, and even many HM areas. I highly doubt that your Mesmer ran a BM secondary. And I am sure the rest of the party members had builds that fell into that subset that allow for success by making up for the defects in the M and Rt builds.

When it comes right down to it, the simplest way to start making these areas more appealing to all (aside from making an EM) is to eliminate DP and Kick on Wipe in NM. Just by doing that will allow for more players to experience and learn these areas with whatever builds they choose.

Hanok

*lemming* · Jan 07, 2011, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

And the game was designed for the casual player. Elite areas do not necessarily mean casual. And casual does not necessarily mean bad.

And being designed for the "casual player" does not necessarily mean that everyone is entitled to be able to complete every bit of content in the game.