Curse

NerfHerder · Jan 20, 2011, 11:04 PM // 23:04

I propse Anet stick by their Anti-Invincibuild stance. 600/Smite was nerfed for this reason. If Anet was serious about this, wouldnt they nerf SF/ER as well? I'm not totally against all invincibuilds, I just think Anet should quit sitting on the fence about it. SF is at the heart of almost every SC in the game. Is that not imbalanced when compared to other professions and protective skills? What do you think? How should this be implemented? Nerf skills like SF? or buff the areas to counter where skills like SF are most often used(Soulrending Shriek, touch skills, etc)?

I'm not talking specifically about SF, but it is the 800lb gorilla in the room.

MisterB · Jan 20, 2011, 11:10 PM // 23:10

ArenaNet is not actually against invincibuilds. They have proven this repeatedly with balance updates and developer statements. What they oppose is extreme efficiency, but they are not always effective or timely with their attempts at solutions.

*lemming* · Jan 20, 2011, 11:16 PM // 23:16

By definition and how monster AI works in PvE, invincibuilds are always going to promote degenerate exploitative play.

FoxBat · Jan 20, 2011, 11:36 PM // 23:36

They stated they want invincibuilds to be viable tanks for those tank and spank teams. To which I say fine; change shadow form (and maybe obs flesh) so that you deal zero damage. Yeah there's still degen but it's piss slow, unlike WW spam or sliver armor or whatever. And killing half the team's ability to solo kill will put a real dent in most speedclear times.

Spiritz · Jan 20, 2011, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I propse Anet stick by their Anti-Invincibuild stance. 600/Smite was nerfed for this reason. If Anet was serious about this, wouldnt they nerf SF/ER as well? I'm not totally against all invincibuilds, I just think Anet should quit sitting on the fence about it. SF is at the heart of almost every SC in the game. Is that not imbalanced when compared to other professions and protective skills? What do you think? How should this be implemented? Nerf skills like SF? or buff the areas to counter where skills like SF are most often used(Soulrending Shriek, touch skills, etc)?

I'm not talking specifically about SF, but it is the 800lb gorilla in the room.

hmm i seem to recall the longest surviving invincibuild in gw which has hardly been affected is 55 monk ( on time a change came was a revert from 55 mo/d to pure 55 mo after a nerf to mystic regen ).
Anet has always attempted to place in areas that are "high risk" with foes to counter - eg nightmares in uw with enchant strip , skeletons of dhuum , mindblades with sig dmg and higher hp plus switchin from melee to ranged - anti sliver.They stated in the past they have nothing actually against invincibuilds as players do enjoy using them but only have a problem of exploitation.600/smite was hit mainly because of the high impact of 600/smite farming within gw as probably 75% of all gw areas could be farmed using them - but when incorporated into sc`s things became a joke.Especially when they removed hero fast faction farming and players used 600/smite teams to faction farm mq and mt and i think dt.

And please dont stir up the old "sf hater" part - SF isnt invici any more compared to what it was , players still take damage , get attacked and can even lose sf via aoe stripping ( try sitting next to Asterius the Mighty with sf in hm and last more than 20 secs and you`ll see staying alive doesnt work).Thousands laughed when sf got changed then they cried after they found the sin basically changed roles.Just get anet to do the easy thing and "high risk"areas add foes with enchant strip , dmg that cuts thru everything - like the mes sigs added to mindblades rather than spoil fun that other players have outside of those areas.

wilebill · Jan 21, 2011, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Game is old. GW 2 coming up. Some people like SC. No use running off players at this stage.

superraptors · Jan 21, 2011, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Shouldve smiters booned it 3+ years ago, too late at this stage of the game and wont achieve anything

X Dr Pepper X · Jan 21, 2011, 01:17 AM // 01:17

If a single skill, build, team build, or method overcentralizes the metagame in such a way that it basically becomes pick X or suffer consequences, then it may deserve a nerf.

Does Shadow Form overcentralize the metagame?

Any profession who is not an Assassin has an immediate disadvantage when wanting to complete metagame content like SoO, FoW, UW, and other various SCs.

Other professions have a disadvantage in inclusion in parties for runs, in efficiency, and in ease of gameplay.

I would say yes it does overcentralize the metagame and deserves a beatdown with the nerf stick, however ANet realizes this may make them lose many players.

In a stupid effort to try and make more money, ANet would rather have a deficient product than one which is thoroughly enjoyable even without the interference of balance issues such as Shadow Form.

By the way, 55 monk is not an invincibuild. Neither is Shadow Form. They are both products of mass exploitation and do damage to the game economy, discriminate against widespread class selection, and are too efficient and easy in efforts to save time and gain money.

55 Monking is just so obscure at this point that the damage caused by speed clears and Shadow Form (seemingly irreparable damage to the already devastated in game economy) is in pale comparison.

gremlin · Jan 21, 2011, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Heard the one about the infinite number of monkeys that will eventually type out all the great works of literature ?

GW is like that, the company has a finite number of people working on fixing skills balancing builds etc.

The player community has not an infinite but a very much greater number of player working far more hours into beating the system and creating the perfect build.

Its true frequent changes in skills slows down the march of the monkeys but they are an irresistible force that eventually comes up with yet another way round the game mechanics.

They could make all the skills underpowered and mediocre but that would be worse.
Besides some people like the invincibuilds and what others do doesnt affect me.

*lemming* · Jan 21, 2011, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Besides some people like the invincibuilds and what others do doesnt affect me.

That kind of reasoning has no place in any kind of game balance decision-making.

reaper with no name · Jan 21, 2011, 02:05 AM // 02:05

SF is no longer an invincibuild, but it does still need another nerf.

/signed

Bright Star Shine · Jan 21, 2011, 03:09 AM // 03:09

In my opinion, they tried to "fix" both OF and SF, but instead they buttraped OF pretty badly.. It's not worthless, and I know it's frequently used in UWSC etc, but compared to SF, it's shit. So, they gave the assassin another huge advantage over ele's for example. So, with the elusive ele balance i've been dreaming about for over 3 years now, they should better do something about it..

Not gonna say nerf though, cause I enjoy tanking DoA too much^^

/notsigned

NerfHerder · Jan 21, 2011, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiritz

And please dont stir up the old "sf hater" part

I would love to pick on the other skill that enables DoA and UW to be ran in 20min and all other Elite areas and HM Dungeons to be ran in 10min, if it existed. Even with skill, tactics, and cons, none of those times would be possible without SF.

I would rather the end game areas and dungeons install anti-SC measures vs a SF nerf. The only question is, how do you do that with out punishing balanced groups?

Lithril Ashwalker · Jan 21, 2011, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace Slughorn

this is the first ever thread on this topic, i can't believe this issue hasn't been raised before

lol SYKe! peeps always bitch about the sf update or nerf and in general from the past and the present.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

SF is no longer an invincibuild, but it does still need another nerf.

/signed

so you can get a skill nerfed so that another skill well be overused to balance the effectiveness of a tank so you can QQ more? i dont think so...nothing is good enough for any player in this game. if one thing is poked the other has to be poked as well when its pushed forward. stop your QQing

jon comgree · Jan 21, 2011, 03:39 AM // 03:39

SF is not overpowered nor is it needing another nerf-let me point out a few things.

Shadowform can be hit by melee attacks but not spells-thus giving it elite skill status
Shadowform is practically useless for things other than tanking and SC's really. I have never been on a mission where an assassin used SF as his first choice elite.
Shadowform has a very small damage cap thus making it almost a worthless skill than other for tanking.
Shadowform was a meant as a defensive skill, not an offensive. If you pit an assassin w/ SF(postnerf PvE version) vs a warrior the warrior would prob win. You know why? DAMAGE CAP and Shadowform is practically useless against him.
Shadowform is one of the skills that people think are overpowered yet its a standard skill. IT SUCKS SOME PLACES, RULES AT OTHERS! just like ANY OTHER SKILL. example: VANQUISHING! SF cant do you any good other than a tank really.
You might say: What bout those guys in Doomlore running dungeons? We guys in doomlore know skills that can help us do what 8 assassins can do in a little less time than the SC.
So tell me; Is shadowform overpowered?
If yes, Pm me reasons you think it is and I'll give you reasons why it is not.
If no, I'd like to thank you for listening to reason(:P). No skill is seriously overpowered; 600/smite can pwn dungeons like assassins can SC with Shadowform. Those who use SF to SC are those who use the skills available to their advantage and those skills themselves just help them survive the onslaught of spells and melee damage w/o monks. I myself use SF to run dungeons for people, the few select skills I use can let me survive and kill what I need to kill.

Anet created these skills so we could use them and so use them I shall!
also
/notsigned

BC invincibuilds are only using skills in combination w/ one other to the advantage in them. If you dont wanna use skills then fine, idc stick w/ selfmade builds and i'll go with builds i can use that work well.

p.s. Shadowform Speedclears DID NOT wreck the GW economy. Speedclears were made with many other versions than shadowform so do not go blaming SF when there are MANY other ways to clear a part of the metagame quickly. ex: manlyway.

Cuilan · Jan 21, 2011, 05:16 AM // 05:16

All for nerfing or changing the function/role of Shadow Form here. At least to where dungeons require at least two professions on the team or let the profession have something else useful.

They gave us the skills is a poor reason because if that was the case..maybe we shouldn't have a dervish or paragon update.

mage767 · Jan 21, 2011, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon comgree

p.s. Shadowform Speedclears DID NOT wreck the GW economy. Speedclears were made with many other versions than shadowform so do not go blaming SF when there are MANY other ways to clear a part of the metagame quickly. ex: manlyway.

I got plenty of examples to disprove your point. The damage by SF has been done, as shown (for r9 weapons):
1. Emmy blades used to cost 130e are now 30e (this is the worst case scenario)
2. Obsidian edges used to cost 100e+ are now under 70e.
3. Silverwings used to cost 250e+, but now just under 150e.
4. BDS staffs dropped in prices significantly for all professions. Prot ones used to go 500e+, now just over 200e.
5. Miniature Dhuum (from UWSC) dropped from 600e to 250e.

I could go on and on with the examples how mass dungeon/elite clears using SF as the core build for a) tanking, b) skipping most of the dungeon, c) killing enemies using earth/mes builds....ruined the prices of hard to farm skins.

I am still excited to hear from this fellow the MANY other ways to speed clear without using SF at all in any of the builds. Granted there are a few exceptions such as Bogroots paraway, I do not know of the MANY he is speaking off. And manlyway also uses SF in there!

SF needs a nerf-bat OR skills which work against the physical-disadvantages of SF such as "Shroud of Distress" needs a good nerf. In fact, I dislike how overpowered SoD is.

Finally, an observation that makes me chuckle the most is when people using SF in SC/elite clears brag about the awesome completion times they accomplished. It is very pro indeed!!!!! /end sarcasm.

diabiosx · Jan 21, 2011, 05:22 AM // 05:22

I love invinci builds because it makes GW truly soloable. 1player+7henchies is not soloing becauseI really hate the fact that heroes can play the game for me while my character can basically just sit back and type to people while the henchies kill everything for me. I would actually love Anet to implement more viable invinci builds to all classes.
so
/notsigned to OP

gremlin · Jan 21, 2011, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Originally Posted by gremlin View Post
Besides some people like the invincibuilds and what others do doesnt affect me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

That kind of reasoning has no place in any kind of game balance decision-making.

Agreed however as a statement it is true, companies to a certain extent will do things to please their customers.

The comparatively few posts on this forum decrying invincibuilds are on one side of the argument on the other are the probably thousands of players using them.
The original 55 Monk was an attempt to get around the game mechanics and become invincible.
anet knows this and they have at times created such builds and then taken many many months to remove them.

Secondly I really couldn't care less if every other player in the game made an invincibuild finished the game in hard mode in a day waltzed through the underworld and back again and came out with a million ectos ambracers and everything else not bolted to the floor.

It really doesn't influence how I play the game
I have tried many of the invincibuilds and find them boring.

I repeat no matter what changes they make to the game there are thousands of idiots out there working 16 hours a day 7 days a week to break them again.
Why waste time and effort fixing the unfixable just make the occasional skill changes and wik kind of thing to keep us occupied till gw2 arrives.

With a bit of luck GW2 will promote a better kind of player who just plays the game for the fun of it.

X Dr Pepper X · Jan 21, 2011, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

It really doesn't influence how I play the game
I have tried many of the invincibuilds and find them boring.

You just don't know how untrue that statement is.

This isn't a single player RPG where you don't interact with other players.

A player's choice to use SF perpetuates the metagame which discourages diverse profession use and non SC builds.

Your choices influence the game not only directly but indirectly as well. You choosing to believe the game revolves around the exploitation of time/profit ratio has a profound effect.

Dervishes, Paragons, and Rangers have by default less of a chance to be assimilated into teams because of the product created by the socialized tendency of people to overfarm the game with the same professions.

This cheapens the experience for anybody who chooses not to pick professions that are commonly used to exploit speed runs.

In this scenario, it becomes pick X profession or be punished by suffering inadequacy.