Curse

helloeveryone · Nov 19, 2010, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maver1ck87

Can PvEers stop getting angry at PvPers?

Most of the pve-ers are not angry, they are just disappointed, there is nothing to be angry about over a video game.
I read that obnoxious thread he posted and even take the time to bold out the content for others to read clearly.
Clearly he seems to be living in Guildwars and taking the "role playing" part as reality lolz. Nevermind him and his kind.

Actually i was thinking that the best way to bring in more players is to close the rank gap, the smaller the gap the more players will play and happier the majority of the players. Of course players will be happier if there is more format to play isn't it? its not like there is a need to fork out more money, its already paid for when we bought Guildwars isn't it haha!

Can you help think of so ways to assist new players to get into the game? Any suggestion?

hitsuji182 · Nov 19, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maver1ck87

No, having tokens for z keys is pointless.... srsly why develop a whole new thing just to get more z keys.

Easier way, double the faction per win.

Basically ur suggestion is... increase the amount of z keys u get for HA by a small amount. As i said, thats easily done by increasing faction gain. HOWEVER it is still susceptible to supply/demand of z keys and eventually price will drop and so will the interest in HA.

Look at my idea, token per fame you win. New set of items, 250 tokens/item GG! wont kill the z key economy and it will increase the HA population. I reckon create a whole line of eternal weapons but meh, anything cool will do!

Pz

Zkyes are everywhere, I'm just pointing them, cuz for me as a PvPer, it's the best way to make money in this game. However it's not the point. Instead of exchanging tokens for zkeys we indeed can just increase the faction amount for winning and killing. No problem, but really 5 tokens for one key is not going to do anything with thier price and i think if there were items like Voltaic Spear or Eternal Blade no one would care about skilly keys. We have a similar thing with zaishen coins already.

Also, I would rather stand with my proposition token per win, not token per fame. It would be just too easy for HoH farmers at dead hours (like wA do this in these days).

helloeveryone · Nov 19, 2010, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitsuji182

Zkyes are everywhere, I'm just pointing them, cuz for me as a PvPer, it's the best way to make money in this game. However it's not the point. Instead of exchanging tokens for zkeys we indeed can just increase the faction amount for winning and killing. No problem, but really 5 tokens for one key is not going to do anything with thier price and i think if there were items like Voltaic Spear or Eternal Blade no one would care about skilly keys. We have a similar thing with zaishen coins already.

Also, I would rather stand with my proposition token per win, not token per fame. It would be just too easy for HoH farmers at dead hours (like wA do this in these days).

hey Hitsujit, i considered myself a PVE-er since the last time i even HA is like more than 2 years ago and playing nothing more than pve from then so i know how pve-er thinks so i can share some thoughts with u.

Your idea of trading token for customised "high end" items does not really work imo. It only rewards pvp-er with items they can use on pve that's about it, i do not see any way that it will be attractive to me because as a pve-er. With this mindset, i will not even bother to map into HA.

"meh, they got some tokens for winning HA to exchange for customised item, i will not even try, no point me going there and try to win"
that's my thought, it rewards pvp-er more than it is now with the implementation of your plan, nothing for pve-er.

Imo, trying to close the rank gap is still a better idea to grow the population slowly, there is no quick fix. like all economy, closing the income gap is a healthy one lolz

diabiosx · Nov 19, 2010, 10:31 PM // 22:31

If you cant see the MAJOR flaws in ur suggestions then no comment.

vinoth · Nov 20, 2010, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

All the ideas from 144-154: I dont want you to destroy HA just because you want that bambi, Thank you.

Rewarding Zkeys for everywin, zkeys will eventually be worth less than 1k which will mean its not worth farming for the begginners. I rather make every monster in UW drop ectos at 100% rate than for this shit to happen. Why? I rather kill pve than pvp. Oh wait you guys just want to destroy pvp, get what you want and go back to pve.

Rewarding fame based on map, wow seriously?! so many ppl skip to HoH from UW, rewarding 24fame for that is just plain stupid. If everyone and their grandma has a tiger, there will be no point in getting it. A tiger will be the equivalent of a rank1 zrank if you were to implement it. Does any1 care about a zrank1??

And to the person suggesting making it harder for higher ranked players to get fame, you do realize that the higher ranked a person is, the more fame they need to reach to the next title correct? I'm just gonna leave it at this and hope u can figure out why your idea is bad.

TL:dR: 144-154 are posted by PVErs who are only self interested. All they want is farming zkeys and getting a shiny emote and doesnt care for the well being of HA.

You have missed the point I was trying to make.

I for one have no interest in collecting pve material. Just yesterday I gave away over 500 zkeys. My aim is to transfer the pve bunch to pvp. The fun of HA/GvG comes from winning (and not by farming). The whole PVE community can be motivated to play PVP by using pve rewards. If this system stays in effect for around 3 months, we will have mass influx into PVP. Once the 3 months are over, Would the new blood leave? Many will stay.

Why?

They have established a flist by playing for 3 months. Established guilds. A new Fotm perhaps. You can easily triple the HA population with my suggestion. Out of that pve lot, I am sure there are people with potential to become very good HA'rs.

Ill give u a few examples of perserverence. A few wks ago, you could see this guy Sar Uber Chet holding often. Ive never heard of this guys name before. He was obviously a new comer and started playing the game for 2-3 months where he built up a flist. Sure he was running an op build, but to hold halls properly, u must know how to split properly and block properly.

Another example is this guy called Gold Kette. He has been playing air ele with bsurge etc for a few months now. (he is not team leader but just a member). When i used to see his name, I used to tell in my team chat - free fame. Over the weeks, Ive seen a tremendous improvement in their team quality to the effect their spikes are better and they actually can block the ghost on the right places (which many r12 + teams cant).

People require a chance in HA in-order to prove what they are worth. Even if 1/10 of that pve community have great potential, that will translate to us high rankers (who dont pvp cuz of lack of good ppl) establish better teams down the line.

I never take pugs usually. Even if I have a pug, Its usually 1 person, and are r12 +. But I am always looking for new people who I can give a shot. If I See your name win halls often, I take that person and give them a shot. I once took a r7 guy and he has been with me since. He does make mistakes but I thought for a r7 he has higher ability.

We need to get more potential players to actually show their potential in HA. Thats what I want. My suggestion will enable this to happen while safeguarding excessive inflation. It does not need to be 1k /win. It can be anything that makes it worthwhile for pvers to play HA. Most of us know Pvers will lost most matches because at the moment, HA is dominated by r10+ only. If there is a huge influx of players, the ratio of r10 + : pvers will go down and actually give pvers a shot at farming a few maps.

Sure there will be more ganks on Hoh split maps. No one ganks at relics. And in koth, if you hold 6 pts straight , u will probably lose because one team resigns. In split maps, even if people try to gank you. You can win if you are good depending on how bad they are. Currently I play a very OP build and we lose koth split maps. While my team mates QQ about ganks etc. I know for a fact we played rubbish by not blocking/splitting right - Ill leave it at that.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss "HA in crisis". I was merely pointing out a rectification. I am sorry if you thought I was filling my pocket.

diabiosx · Nov 20, 2010, 03:18 PM // 15:18

getting rank3 is very difficult for beginners, and that is the title you need to show that you have done some HA. IMO if you can wear the rank1 title, it should help beginners to pug.

r0-3 for me was the most fraustrating time in HA.

Missing HB · Nov 20, 2010, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinoth

Ill give u a few examples of perserverence. A few wks ago, you could see this guy Sar Uber Chet holding often. Ive never heard of this guys name before. He was obviously a new comer and started playing the game for 2-3 months where he built up a flist. Sure he was running an op build, but to hold halls properly, u must know how to split properly and block properly.
.

That guy was already r8 when he played Ha again , and that's not a good example since his flist was online 24/7 , which wont be the case for most new players in HA . Aswell , i'm not gonna argue about hall wins since it relies on pure luck ( on 3 way ofc , considering most 1v1 blue team wins whatever ..).

Point is starting from nothing from now is almost impossible. I just logged twice today , morning there were 3 r11 balas , and afternoon its r9+ bbway festival. Both cases any " fair build " r0-7 gets rolled fast. Add to it inactivity on normal week and ....

The only thing if we make " more pvers play HA " would be however to make Hall map a little more fair , especially when 1 on 1....

Reverend Dr · Nov 20, 2010, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinoth

The fun of HA/GvG comes from winning (and not by farming). The whole PVE community can be motivated to play PVP by using pve rewards.

You just contradicted yourself.

Look at Zquests. When they were first released there was a large rush to HA, new teams could eventually beat other new teams in UW enough times to turn in a Zquest. No one got better at HA, no one stayed. In GvG towards the bottom of the ladder teams would often say "want to roll?" I don't even need to discuss Zquest in HB.

If people are playing for a reward they aren't playing for the enjoyment of the game or the enjoyment of winning a game; they are playing just for that reward. Do you really think people get enjoyment out of UWSC or DOASC itself and not the rewards?

Essence Snow · Nov 20, 2010, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

You just contradicted yourself.

Look at Zquests. When they were first released there was a large rush to HA, new teams could eventually beat other new teams in UW enough times to turn in a Zquest. No one got better at HA, no one stayed. In GvG towards the bottom of the ladder teams would often say "want to roll?" I don't even need to discuss Zquest in HB.

If people are playing for a reward they aren't playing for the enjoyment of the game or the enjoyment of winning a game; they are playing just for that reward. Do you really think people get enjoyment out of UWSC or DOASC itself and not the rewards?

At the start they do get enjoyment. After 20ish runs, then the enjoyment runs out. (at least that's how it was for me)

Today out of boredom I decided to go try some HA...something I will not be doing again anytime soon. Absolutely horrid experience.....If one needs any understanding of the entry barriers to this format Int dist on HA weekend, on HA zq day is the place to go see it. Very dissapointing to say the least. Cant' believe I'm saying this, but maybe Anet should do somthing to this format to change it.....until then I don't believe I'll be returning to the format.

vinoth · Nov 20, 2010, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

You just contradicted yourself.

Look at Zquests. When they were first released there was a large rush to HA, new teams could eventually beat other new teams in UW enough times to turn in a Zquest. No one got better at HA, no one stayed. In GvG towards the bottom of the ladder teams would often say "want to roll?" I don't even need to discuss Zquest in HB.

If people are playing for a reward they aren't playing for the enjoyment of the game or the enjoyment of winning a game; they are playing just for that reward. Do you really think people get enjoyment out of UWSC or DOASC itself and not the rewards?

I am saying that pvers will come to HA for farming. IF they do it for a few months, they will know how to farm better using a better team/build/flist. Then , they actually become competitive. They get hooked on to the format. They will stay. End the pve rewards. The hardcore farmers will leave. The established ones will stay.

diabiosx · Nov 21, 2010, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinoth

I am saying that pvers will come to HA for farming. IF they do it for a few months, they will know how to farm better using a better team/build/flist. Then , they actually become competitive. They get hooked on to the format. They will stay. End the pve rewards. The hardcore farmers will leave. The established ones will stay.

I made alot of people their bambis when I was low ranked being leader of a bspike guild, when i decided to take a break from GW because of school and part time job, they all went back to pve or left the game, none of them stuck along, I do MEAN NONE. I helped some people get their tiger when i made another guild later down the road, about 3 of them went to pve after they got their tiger and others started being inactive. And some people raged the game after they got their birdies(entire woom core). The bottom line is that too many people leave HA, mainly due to the fact that the system is sooo flawed/boring/complicated. Any system to increase reward will just inflate the market and will not change what is fundamentally flawed with HA, and people will eventually start leaving. Anet needs to change the system currently in HA(relics, capture points, King of the Hill, 3way halls). Having this many objectives just makes HA too complicated for beginners to understand. (even 90% of r13 players have no idea what is going on in capture points) A fun game is usually very easy to get into and clearly HA isnt. You need at least 100hours to have some understanding of how all maps work.
But anyways theres really no point in getting into why HA is flawed because ANet dont have time to invest in this arena. If you want HA to be more popular, you really have to petition to Anet to have more of their employees in the live team and get people who actually can post good ideas and are not self interested.

Reverend Dr · Nov 21, 2010, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

If one needs any understanding of the entry barriers to this format Int dist on HA weekend, on HA zq day is the place to go see it.

Don't pug. Pugs are not a method of entry. Pugs are a deadend, or at best a non-sequitur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

but maybe Anet should do somthing to this format to change it

Oh they absolutely should. It is just nothing like the HA of old days. While they don't want to promote "holding" builds that can hold HA for hours, the fact that you cannot do that means less serious players and groups are no longer going to participate.

Missing HB · Nov 21, 2010, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

At the start they do get enjoyment. After 20ish runs, then the enjoyment runs out. (at least that's how it was for me)

That's all the point. Upon all PvE guilds i joined recently , i don't believe it's really the case. People are willing to play hours and hours of DoA , UW just for the rewards . An other example is people who did 100+ stacks of tot bags ....
Only thing i played for fun in this game were HB tourneys , now i passed on farming some greens from sorrow furnace and crap ( i was amazed when 30 people told me " greens worthless bro , just go uw its better " ).

Most players just rage quit after ANY lose ( fun especially when 1 hour form lose uw from dc ) , and that's why pugging ,as Reverend Dr said , isn't really the best choice.

superraptors · Nov 21, 2010, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by helloeveryone

If any pver just want a useless emote of any kind of animal, they can just buy it.

this is where your wrong from the narrowminded pve perspective, every role in ha is no longer a bitch role, every role is as important as the backline frontline.

olders pvpers in the game have gotten smarter(but not neccessarily better), we were all crap 3+ years ago if u think about it.

pvers on the other hand have not improved(i still see flare every now and then on rway), every doublefame weekend you will see fail pver builds people try to farm fame/quest, instead there feeding fame, just today i saw fail unholy feast necro eoe bomb, sadly enough we took out there eoe and they suicided without taking 1 person below 90%, also saw a ride the lightning,eleball, sfspike which also failed miserably.

YOU KNOW THE SAD THING IS, they probably took 2 hours to form/give out bars, then when they get stomped and rage quit is inevitable, this is why HA is dieing because people want the easy way out, they think they can just think of some terrible nuking builds and steamroll people, the furthest they will get is burial mounds, anywhere beyond is just a skip or vsing more tools.

ganking is a small problem, as long as 3 way is here ganking will occur.

theres not much you can do to make ha active, the pvers will never learn to get good or decent especially after 5+ years. they have simply started too late, winning these days is not hard due to inactivity, but there will usually be 1 decent team that would be holding during the peaks of the day american / euro

Killed u man · Nov 21, 2010, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

I made alot of people their bambis when I was low ranked being leader of a bspike guild, when i decided to take a break from GW because of school and part time job, they all went back to pve or left the game, none of them stuck along, I do MEAN NONE. I helped some people get their tiger when i made another guild later down the road, about 3 of them went to pve after they got their tiger and others started being inactive. And some people raged the game after they got their birdies(entire woom core). The bottom line is that too many people leave HA, mainly due to the fact that the system is sooo flawed/boring/complicated. Any system to increase reward will just inflate the market and will not change what is fundamentally flawed with HA, and people will eventually start leaving. Anet needs to change the system currently in HA(relics, capture points, King of the Hill, 3way halls). Having this many objectives just makes HA too complicated for beginners to understand. (even 90% of r13 players have no idea what is going on in capture points) A fun game is usually very easy to get into and clearly HA isnt. You need at least 100hours to have some understanding of how all maps work.
But anyways theres really no point in getting into why HA is flawed because ANet dont have time to invest in this arena. If you want HA to be more popular, you really have to petition to Anet to have more of their employees in the live team and get people who actually can post good ideas and are not self interested.

While I agree with you on the fact that nowadays people don't give a shit about HA, but rather about their rank, you give a really bad example.

I mean, no offence fierce, but you were WoOm.WoOm, the all day every day guild which had 8 swayers running balanced for 1/2 years straight with everyone playing EXACTLY the same role day in day out. Me and nick talked on vent each day how the hell you guys managed to even launch guildwars at the start of the day when you know you're just gonna do the same thing over, and over again.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm in the same sinking ship as you are, all my friends left aswell, but they left for different reasons. We all enjoyed HA because I let my friends run different kind of builds. We ran balanced, we ran spike, we ran pressure, we ran whatever crazy build I, or my friends, could come up with. THIS is HA should have been played by everyone, rather than go in with one build and farm the living shit out of it.

I mean, I've littereally farmed 10K ritspike fame, but that hardly compares to the 50/60K fame I've got running various other builds. This is why I, and my friends, managed to stick around for so long. For us, HA wasn't a chore where you have your guild bitchbar players (everyone has em) play the same bar day in day out, but rather they could play different bars every day.

This is also why, in the glory days of dent, we steamrolled litteraly every guild (You can deny it all you want, you didn't beat us once lol) with balanced, because our bitchbar players, flawed as they were, had experience in every build and knew how to counter them.

When you stick to one gimmick for all your fame, you don't learn how to play HA. You don't learn how to play PvP and most importantly you don't learn how to enjoy PvP. Instead, you learn how to play a lame gimmick, and you enjoy it as long as it lasts. Then you leave HA under the illusion you know it like the back of your hand, and that you really are a good player.

Triple melee is a good example for the GvG scene, aswell as hexway and the Paragon/Ranger spike. So many players stopped playing after certain builds got nerfed in the past. Why? Because they never played the format, but rather a build. A build that now got nerfed, and for them this creates the illusion the format is nerfed.

Reverend Dr · Nov 21, 2010, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

This is also why, in the glory days of dent, we steamrolled litteraly every guild (You can deny it all you want, you didn't beat us once lol) with balanced, because our bitchbar players, flawed as they were, had experience in every build and knew how to counter them.

Oh Borat

Fierce is pretty dead on in his post. So many people perpetuate a stereotype that PvP players don't ever help new players, yet I've been there for helping somewhere from 30-50. One of them still plays (only when I AIM him to get on).

As far as HA itself if you don't like PvP you aren't going to like HA (big surprise). If you do like PvP you will like GvG more than HA. The only thing you can do in HA that you can't in GvG is have success with terrible gimmicks. It really should be no surprise that HA has no balanced left and everything being run are gimmicks.

Sirius Bsns · Nov 21, 2010, 10:28 PM // 22:28

So...

HA Crisis: Most Probable Causes [Highlights]

Rank Discrimination/Stubborn Uncooperative Newcomers,
Imbalanced Maps/Skills/Collision-Abuse,
Roll-face Gimmicks...

Did I leave anything out, here?

Missing HB · Nov 22, 2010, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The only thing you can do in HA that you can't in GvG is have success with terrible gimmicks.

I watched fights from GvG mat and i saw almost everyone running triple melee ranger necro. So yes , it's not comparable to Bbway from HA , but still....Most guilds that played anything else than that or bsurge + water ele got 2/4 or 1/5 , so i can't speak about non terrible gimmicks in GvG . Actually , biggest problem come from stance monks : if both use same build , it leads to 25mn fight , win given to first who did 2 sec mistake ; if opponent doesn't play that build , they get steamrolled whereas they cant kill because of mo/w

This thread is probably going to get closed anyway since it has turned to flame each other , but rank discrimination isn't really that much a problem compared to :
1- non fun builds
2- terribly unfair maps + ganks
3- 1- and 2- leading to total inactivity for some hours

superraptors · Nov 22, 2010, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

This thread is probably going to get closed anyway since it has turned to flame each other , but rank discrimination isn't really that much a problem compared to :
1- non fun builds
2- terribly unfair maps + ganks
3- 1- and 2- leading to total inactivity for some hours

1. non fun builds because of constant nerfs, as much i hate vsing bbways its a good challenge. rspike and bspike was free fame for any decent balanced team also nerfed, wasnt a problem at all they get blitzed on cap points all the time.

2. several bad maps like fetid, its so goddam dark, 3way in general esp at halls is quite flawed, but good teams can counter ganks

diabiosx · Nov 22, 2010, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

3way in general esp at halls is quite flawed, but good teams can counter ganks

counter ganking doesnt always work because you dont know how the other team is going to react. For example
1 you are blue, yellow runs to ur base and you decide to run to red. Red can decide to run back to their base to defend. In this situation Yellow wins.
2 you are blue, yellow runs to ur base and you decide to run to yellow. Red then caps middle. Red wins.
3 you are blue, yellow runs to ur base, and you decide to to send enough ppl back to your base to defend. You lose middle, red has the most people there so red wins.