Curse

Chasing Squirrels · Feb 16, 2011, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

Let me preface this with the following: If you think an 8 healer team can hold fort aspenwood against an equally optimized luxon team, you're stupid, no polite way to put it, your just dumb. It doesn't matter how many healers you have, you'll burn out their energy if they can't prot, and if you can't prop up the gates you'll need to run amber or push the enemy out. Thing about going against an offense light team(or defending from that position, as i've learned) is any ground you take is yours to keep, they can't push back. Having said that, one well of profane, one well timed expunge or rend and any NPC can get spiked to hell. This is why they put the enchant stripping on the turtles in the first place(that and most luxon players are too dumb to take enchant rips on their own).

All this can be fixed by not playing like a moron, on either side. The solution is to not let morons in this arena.

Having said that, maybe let players form 8 man teams to do FA. I do concede more tactical approaches are necessary on the luxon side, a fixed team could help that along, but this idiocy of "dur ate munkz=intsa WINNAR!" needs to stop. On the kurzick side, if you don't have the offense to push the lux out of the base, as said, they will camp there and wear you out(or worst case scenario for the timid luxon noob teams, stall at a gate humping their turtle refusing to press the attack on the next gate). I've been in defnse heavy kurzick teams, and lost just like this several times, because the offense players who were there couldn't score kills.

It's either that, letting players form teams, or as I said earlier, take kurzick healing out of the objective equation and make their defense based on offense. Make the gates and god's vengance actual NPC objects, like the aura gate from a gate to far, that you have to attack and damage to destroy. Make these objects unhealable from player heals. Maybe give the surounding NPCs a way to heal the gate in trickles so as to give the kurzicks time to run the amber. Maybe give the turtles a siege bonus VS the gates and reduce the effects VS the players.

Further more make the Gods Vengance weapon stop filling automatically. Kurzicks should have to make the choice, heal the gates or finish the prodject. Set a 10 minute countdown, if the kurzicks can't fill the thing before it counts down and the luxons haven't destroyed it, draw game. This would give kurz a reason to go for the green mine.

Good job being a hypocrite

Hobbs · Feb 16, 2011, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chasing Squirrels

Good job being a hypocrite

QFT.

You said excessive healing wasn't the problem, then said all defensive healing of NPCs should be removed?

MithranArkanere · Feb 16, 2011, 02:47 AM // 02:47

It's PvP.

It should be attack+defend vs attack+defend, or alternate a round of attack vs defend, and then a round in which the players switch sides or roles, making the ones that attack defend, and vice-versa, without letting them change builds.

Always attack vs defend is not good for PvP. It makes things stale.

ensoriki · Feb 16, 2011, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

It's PvP.

It should be attack+defend vs attack+defend, or alternate a round of attack vs defend, and then a round in which the players switch sides or roles, making the ones that attack defend, and vice-versa, without letting them change builds.

Always attack vs defend is not good for PvP. It makes things stale.

No not really.
Ever play Gunz The Duel, Attack and defense is one of the most popular player created games there is.

Difference between that and FA though is that turns are taken.
One turn, someone is attacking while the other team must defend their base, next round positions are switched the previous offense team now defends and previous defenders now attack.

Attack a spot and defending a spot simultaneously can get boring faster in my opinion.
Which is why I hop betwen FA kurzick and FA luxon, you have more fun hopping between them.

MonsieurChapin · Feb 16, 2011, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Very much /notsigned. In all the FA matches I've played on either side the Luxons seemed to win a bit more often than the Kurzicks. Losing to a pack of heal/prot turtlers may be frustrating but i can't imagine it's all that frequent an occurrence.

MithranArkanere · Feb 16, 2011, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

No not really.
Ever play Gunz The Duel, Attack and defense is one of the most popular player created games there is[...]

As I said, either doing both or taking turns in attacking and defending.

In Gunz players take turns, those that were attacking switch to defense in the next turn. In FA those that join one side always do the same in that side, and never switch.

Hugh Manatee · Feb 18, 2011, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobbs

QFT.

You said excessive healing wasn't the problem, then said all defensive healing of NPCs should be removed?

Learn to read... : It's EITHER let the players form parties, knowing full well it's possible for an optimized offensive luxon party to overcome an "optimized" defensive kurzick 8 monk party, OR Take the excessive defense off the table for the random parties by forcing the kurzicks to play more offensive(which would involve, as said, separating the defense of the gates from the party's ability to heal and making it rely on their ability to run amber).

The Key here is moronic party paring. Ideally everyone entering on the luxon side would have the teleports or speed to chase players through gates and the enchant rips and spiking power to kill NPCs on their own. Ideally they would also know how to push without the turtles, punish amber runners and such, but random paring makes this impossible. I've seen warriors and assassins with Word of healing, rangers who think they need to take lava arrows or oath shot+meteor shower, people with festival headgear ect, all kinds of junk. On the kurzik half however, as long as you get 1 or 2 healers who know what they're doing, you can prop the npcs up all day VS the handful of good players in addition to the many useless ones(bots, leechers, oathshot nukers, ect).

This comes to what I recommended. Let the players form parties, like in AB or formerly TA. Even if it was two 4 man parties being randomly pared, instead of one 8 man. The issue is whenever I put this out there I get a bunch of morons who can't read go "LOL ate munkz=intawin" or "durhopycrit", hence my point, if we could keep the morons and leechers out it would be a much more fun place to play.

If not that, then the actual mechanics on the map need to change to allow aggressive tactics on the kurzick side to be not only viable but necessary.

EDIT: one more thing, I can totally take the green mine out on my own, usually with one or 2 guys attacking me(as long as it's not a necro). The key is timing knocklocks on the NPC monk just right. The problem, as stated, is it's not really worth going on the offense to take it frequently, I'm far more valuable tearing up players and turtles that try to get inside the fort. I usually go there only once at the start of the match and bring a bundle of refined in.

miriforst · Feb 19, 2011, 09:09 AM // 09:09

And 8 mesmer parties (or 6 + 2 monks) on the luxon team? There are heal and prot counters out there, and as long as they heal npcs they will be in range of you. A shatter + diversion + dual wastrel cover matters really. I can hold up the gate solo for an entire match with my Air of enchant monk but as soon as they start focusing on me i start having difficulties and if they have 1 good mesmer that actually targets me then i am f**ked. Then we got soulbind that is highly annoying while healing since you got to spam 24/7 on a gate under attack to hold it and that results in you having to constantly flip flop between npcs that are not on the party list like turtle squad. The gate npcs (except the juggernaut) are extremely frail against everything except melee and if you loose half a second of your attention (energy management, healing self etc) the gate goes down in an instant. Do not underestimate turlte siege! Its damage is insane against casters in a sick area and if you do as much as scratch a toenail from it you will be stripped of an enchantment. "hurr" you say "thats only a BBQWTF chilblains every thirteen seconds! Its not good enough!" but believe us being 2 shotted simultaneously by 2 turtles stripping your cover enchantment and another enchantment and also hit for at least 250-ish damage (if it fired at a friend and not point blank at you) and also having constant knockdowns from the flawless use of coward from the warriors (that deals up to 90 damage x4 in their attacks, oh and theres 8 in total divided in 2 groups)
you don't feel particulary cherry. If you are a healer and on top of that you are under constant diversion (after shattering your holy veil) and instantly covering it with dual wastrels in a way that forces you to choose to either die or not being able to use a certain skill for over a minute (lol any skill disabled for a healer is disaster). As other have said you need offense to kill of the enemy attackers or they are going to give you no rest, and often the fall of a gate is because either you run out of energy for constantly having to spam spells on gate npcs or the luxon players goes in front of the gate and gets in range of you forcing you to split your attention to heal yourself.

MithranArkanere · Feb 19, 2011, 02:50 PM // 14:50

The thing is, to use a skill on those healers, you must get closer to them. So they can stay out of range, and you won't interrupt them.

You may try to use 'healing-punishment' like scourge healing, but they can bring skills to quickly remove many hexes, and heal each other again the damage done with the the scourge.

ensoriki · Feb 19, 2011, 05:28 PM // 17:28

@ hugh. Exactly Green shrine isn't worth it in the time to run there and cap it, you could've done more significant things. For what to get amber that increases the thing by 4%? When grabbing the 2% to fix a gate or increase the score is ridiculously quicker.
That aside Forming parties would be terrible, there just isn't enough playerbase for this to work right, it's going to cause an HA issue. Part of the appeal is the accessibility, if it were not for getting in being a pain in the ass via the timer.

Also players pushing with the turtle even in an organized party is silly. The turtle and his luxons are just good pressure on defense.
Played FA 4 times Thursday for the dervish update, loving my Pious Haste running, ran amber in record breaking times. Then as I'm going through, seeing the turtle squad benched at the place, and the luxons wondering why they are getting pushed out. Kurzick base has plenty of NPC's and all we have to do is get 1 piece of amber up there to revive a gate and it's npc's. It's stupid not to push for your turtles, and yet so many FA games are won to kurzicks because turtles aren't pushed.
If I'm playing FA and I don't see the turtle being used, I know we won the game already, only thing that could stop us is MM pressure.

Quote:

In Gunz players take turns, those that were attacking switch to defense in the next turn. In FA those that join one side always do the same in that side, and never switch.

They take turns but the key thing is that taking turns in itself isn't a competitive advantage.
Defending the library and attacking the dining table is easier than the other way around.
With FA the goal may not be the same but the map is designed for both teams to succeed. Luxons need to use their damn turtles, and kurzicks need to run that amber.
Hell if there were organized teams I doubt Kurzick would ever win. Turtle pressure can piss on any of the Kurzick npc's and it's easily renewable to boot.

We've all seen it happen, your a kurzick, your team has 3 or even 4 monks, none of them are full smite monks, some may have RoJ but that's really all, everything else is support oriented. Some will be full support. You think you had it made because theres monks, hallelujah there are monks, then you lose, too much pressure on defense, not enough offensive push from offense. After the 1st run of amber, luxons cap the shrine, break your gate, and now when you try to run amber, you have luxons inside your 1st gate, and worse yet if they're past your 2nd gate. It's quite possible to die just trying to deliver the amber.

If kurzick teams could be all health/defense oriented, Luxons can be very offensive/shutdown oriented and then what. If your super defensive your not capping amber, luxons will kill you anyways during your attempts to do so when your splitting your defense to cap shrines. So the bar fills up slower and gates don't get fixed or they get fixed very slowly. So your getting attacked without cease, and there may be someone there to shut you down, maybe someone with Wail of Doom or a mesmer, daze inducers, KD warriors, pfft whatever. Your shutdown, turtles pressuring, your 8 supporters still fold and die.

Missing HB · Feb 19, 2011, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

That aside Forming parties would be terrible, there just isn't enough playerbase for this to work right, it's going to cause an HA issue. Part of the appeal is the accessibility, if it were not for getting in being a pain in the ass via the timer.

The playerbase isn't a problem and anyway there is by far more players in FA or JQ than in HA at any hour . The only thing here is that fights would be extremly boring. Why? because kurzics would go in with 4-5 monks , luxons would go in with 3 monks, rest being mainly nukers i guess..

I know those formats aren't fun when you face 4 monks with 6 melee , but you stil need to consider that you earn points even if you lose , which isn't the case in places such as RA ( where luck factor matters a lot )

MithranArkanere · Feb 19, 2011, 09:36 PM // 21:36

There's your flaw.

The map was designed with a purpose in mind, but without considering the imposibility of such purpose in GW.
So while they were making it to be balanced, it never really wasn't.

That got accentuated over the pass of time and several skill changes.