Curse

Missing HB · Mar 07, 2011, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

ye, uw without cons aint too hard especially if u can use spirits.
And Missing Hb only ever ran crap in ha (sway/that sinscrap hexes).
Thats the kind of pvper he was/is that is now probably playing pve and failing hard at it. lol guild wars

That's true ( although you probably did too else you wouldn't know me ) for the HA part , unfortunately my knowledge in heroes management allowed me to get all titles and stuff in HoM for months....

I came back to try DoA with heroes and found it relatively hard in NM compared to what it is in normal DwG team HM. Simple...

Donnie Yen · Mar 07, 2011, 06:35 PM // 18:35

A friend and I tackled city & foundry yesterday in NM 2 humans rest heroes. City no cons with minor difficulties, foundry we did need cons, but that was my first time there. We failed at end of foundry, but know our mistake. I believe with more attempts, and better builds, we could do without cons, or at least one more live person. I ran 100 blades, he ran imbagon. I believe cons are fine for everyone to use, I craft my own, or buy if to lazy to farm materials. I don't believe they should be change in any way. I enjoy trying to adjust builds to not needing them.

*lemming* · Mar 07, 2011, 07:17 PM // 19:17

WoW requires consumables for serious raiding. In fact, WoW raid encounters are balanced around players having consumables. However, WoW consumables also don't do more than, say, offer a 5% damage increase or a 5% hp bonus.

If GW consumables were more along those lines, instead of providing gamebreakingly strong effects like Essences and Armors and candies do, people might not complain about their distorting influence on PvE as much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Changing consets at this stage in the game would throw the balance of the game off so much that there would need to be many changes.

lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I think I pointed out a few posts above that DoA without cons would just cripple us a bit, but you wouldn't stop us.

I don't want to be judgmental and call people "undeserving," but the idea of making the most purportedly difficult PvE content in the game trivial is really kind of ridiculous.

JONO51 · Mar 07, 2011, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Tone down cons, change functionality on shadow of haste, recall, and shadow form.

chris12xu · Mar 07, 2011, 09:55 PM // 21:55

I like how everyone says cons make HM doa twice as fast as NM doa without cons...like cans is what makes that happen...its the tactics and quite frankly its the speed boost outside of the speed boost that cons and personal cons grant the rest is quite trivial and only shave off maybe 5 min off of a run the rest of the time really comes from the speed boost.

furthermore I'm sorry but saying that elite areas should be something you fail a couple times before it takes you over an hour to complete is NOT fun from the start guild wars has been aimed at being a casual game where you choose your game play well spending 5 hours to fail and do an elite area is not casual and you can choose to use cons or not use cons.....hmm I think they got it right

honestly all I hear is a bunch of kids throwing temper tantrums becuase someone else has cooler toys than them...

drkn · Mar 07, 2011, 10:03 PM // 22:03

If you ever played God of War, you probably are aware how the game is easy, even on the hard mode. Apart of some harder fights, it's just a walk in a park, especially after you upgrade weapons and learn to dodge/block.
Now, there's something called Challenge of Olympus. It's specifically designed to provide a challenge. It's an elite arena that's unlocked once you've beaten the game.

Ringing a bell? It's pretty much the same as DoA should be. Except Kratos can't use godly possessions in the Challenge, making him invincible.
Sure, after beating them once, every subsequent try is much, much easier. But trying some of them for the first time... uh.

Games usually have a 'hard place to test yourself and provide a challenge' apart of normal, casual game. Here UW, FoW and DoA are smothered to the level of easy/medium dungeons, with Frostmaw's being more annoying and harder for lotsa groups than the domain of Balthazar and Menzies.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 08, 2011, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

If you ever played God of War, you probably are aware how the game is easy, even on the hard mode. Apart of some harder fights, it's just a walk in a park, especially after you upgrade weapons and learn to dodge/block.
Now, there's something called Challenge of Olympus. It's specifically designed to provide a challenge. It's an elite arena that's unlocked once you've beaten the game.

Ringing a bell? It's pretty much the same as DoA should be. Except Kratos can't use godly possessions in the Challenge, making him invincible.
Sure, after beating them once, every subsequent try is much, much easier. But trying some of them for the first time... uh.

Games usually have a 'hard place to test yourself and provide a challenge' apart of normal, casual game. Here UW, FoW and DoA are smothered to the level of easy/medium dungeons, with Frostmaw's being more annoying and harder for lotsa groups than the domain of Balthazar and Menzies.

What's strange is that you all talk about DoA being so super easy and being no more than a mere faceroll. Although the only thing you tried was DwG. I challenge you to complete a DoASC with our tactics, or HRUU's, or Zraw's, or anyone elses, without prior knowledge of how they work, and get it done. You can use every personal consumable you can find in this game, yet you will still fail. I see a lot of new guys coming in to the scene often enough. 90% of our trials's only prior knowledge of DoA is DwG, and at first they struggle a lot to get to know how things work, but if they wonder about something, we will explain things, so that they learn.

The only reason we get to do 22/21 minute record runs is because of our experience in the area, not because it's so easy. Also, record runs are an entirely different subject, lol. But our sub-40 casual runs didn't come because of DoA being a walk in the park, we get those because we make it a walk in the park. Because we know what we're doing. The area in itself isn't that easy, we just make it that way, because we chose the best tactics we could use.

drkn · Mar 08, 2011, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Although the only thing you tried was DwG.

I've never run DwG or any other PuG-friendly quasi-SC crap.
Sorry, but stopped reading after that. Too many assumptions to get into a real conversation in this thread.
A game should have at least one challenge. An area that can't be turned into a walk in a park done in 20-30 min, be it by tactics or, even less, by additional help from god mode items. Sure, tactics should make it easier, or just doable, but there should be something that poses a challenge, that is hard. In case of MMOs, at least completely non-farmable.
The main problem with DoA is that, apart of some places where quests are necessary to be followed, you can faceroll with decent builds if you pop enough consumables. Won't take you 20 min, but an hour, yet still.

Aly Lightningstorm · Mar 08, 2011, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Those areas ARE hard. Even with consets and specialized tactics and shadow form and all the other things people use to do it.

Quote:

The main problem with DoA is that, apart of some places where quests are necessary to be followed, you can faceroll with decent builds if you pop enough consumables. Won't take you 20 min, but an hour, yet still.

Let's see it.

If it's so easy, I'm sure you could get a team together and prove your point. You can just pop a conset, press 123, and faceroll right through it. Isn't that right?

Coast · Mar 08, 2011, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

I've never run DwG or any other PuG-friendly quasi-SC crap.
Sorry, but stopped reading after that. Too many assumptions to get into a real conversation in this thread.
A game should have at least one challenge. An area that can't be turned into a walk in a park done in 20-30 min, be it by tactics or, even less, by additional help from god mode items. Sure, tactics should make it easier, or just doable, but there should be something that poses a challenge, that is hard. In case of MMOs, at least completely non-farmable.
The main problem with DoA is that, apart of some places where quests are necessary to be followed, you can faceroll with decent builds if you pop enough consumables. Won't take you 20 min, but an hour, yet still.

gvg matches only last 28minutes max, so they are a walk in the parc also by your definition?!

Bright Star Shine · Mar 08, 2011, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

I've never run DwG or any other PuG-friendly quasi-SC crap.
Sorry, but stopped reading after that. Too many assumptions to get into a real conversation in this thread.
A game should have at least one challenge. An area that can't be turned into a walk in a park done in 20-30 min, be it by tactics or, even less, by additional help from god mode items. Sure, tactics should make it easier, or just doable, but there should be something that poses a challenge, that is hard. In case of MMOs, at least completely non-farmable.
The main problem with DoA is that, apart of some places where quests are necessary to be followed, you can faceroll with decent builds if you pop enough consumables. Won't take you 20 min, but an hour, yet still.

Ok, good point, shouldn't have assumed anything, but now let's at least make this a serious conversation. If you think DoA is so easy the way we do it, prove it. Prove to us that how we got our times down so low was purely because of consumables, your so called "godmode", and not because of experience, tactics, teamplay, coordination and all those other things that we use. Hell, I would even take you on a run with us, without giving you any directions, just tag along, and prove that you will succeed a run with us, and won't screw up anything. See how well you do.

Donnie Yen · Mar 08, 2011, 06:00 PM // 18:00

I think the ones asking for a nerf/adjustments to cons still don't understand. Yes cons give boosts, very good ones. However, it's just like at the very beginning, when people would form groups for fow. Most would fail, the ones that new a tactic, like book form( been a long time unsure if that's what we called it). If you know patrol patterns, where pop ups are, what builds work best and actually know how to use them. Then to everyone else it appears easy, until they try. Now add cons, which speed things up, and everyone is complaining that needs to be nerfed because it's now way to easy. I personally don't run sc, but understand it takes some skill, once you used to it then it may appear to everyone else it's just button mashing.

Plutoman · Mar 09, 2011, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Hmmm, my girlfriend and I did the DoA with us and heroes (NM, of course), I running as an obs flesh tank, her as a ranger barrager. Took us a significant amount of configuring and messing with builds to manage it, but that we did.

We used consets at times, but not all the time. They were useful but not necessary - they are just fine as they are, they provide speed for those who want it, and extra security, but for those who want a challenge they can go without.

If we did HM, we would need consets, I don't believe we could do it without them using just heroes.

WarcryOfTruth · Mar 09, 2011, 02:29 AM // 02:29

I don't think cons themselves are so bad, unless considering what can come from having them. They help those that need the help, but what I have the problem with is, the team builds that are ONLY functional with them. For instance, maintaining Shadow Form or Obsidian Flesh or Ether Renewal is possible with an Essence of Celerity, whereas otherwise it would require a second skill, albeit Glyph of Swiftness or Deadly Paradox. Essentially consumables are a form of indirect bar compression for those who use them for skills or builds that call for them. That sounds a bit complex, but I think everyone knows what I am saying. I am all for using them to assist those that need them. Basically, builds that are only possible with consumables are probably the biggest problem, change how they function (the consumables or the skills), and I think people would be happier as a whole.

Gabriel of Ravn · Mar 09, 2011, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Cons do make things super easy I've taken a group, most with very little exp, into DoA took about an hour without my use of vent because I currently can't use it because of campus internet. Needless to say I did alot of pinging as I was tanking and had to stop and type out instructions at points. But I really don't care about cons staying the same or changing I don't use them in most of my gameplay because I don't feel like curbstomping the same area a few hundred times.

novawhiz · Mar 09, 2011, 03:30 AM // 03:30

They should never have introduced pcons/cons ever, it was a terrible idea, but doing anything to them now is just stupid

Kunder · Mar 09, 2011, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Cons are the dumbest thing Anet has done to PvE, beating out even PvE skills. Anyone with even a shred of self respect should not be using them.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 09, 2011, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Cons are the dumbest thing Anet has done to PvE, beating out even PvE skills. Anyone with even a shred of self respect should not be using them.

Nop, inscriptions still steal the crown to the dumbest thing Anet ever did in PvE.

And your comment is kind of sad in its own. How come using cons is a lack of self respect? I might be on a high horse, but you sir are sitting on an elephant the size of an air craft carrier atm.

HotSoup · Mar 09, 2011, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Time and time again I keep seeing referances to DwG DoA being a facerool, easy as pie with cons, no fail. While I personally have never done DwG, since it's an obvious waste of time, there are some things I know. Most runs take upwards of two hours, in NM, or HM, both with cons. Most groups fail. That's right. Most groups start in City, as per usual, yet Titans are the most expensive gem. Wierd, isn't it? This is because most groups don't even finish Foundry, which would yield the most gems, and Torments are more than Stygians, even though you would get more Torment than Stygian. This is because groups fail. A lot. Even with Cons, this is no faceroll. If anything is the problem, it's the DwG builds.

Quote:

I don't want to be judgmental and call people "undeserving," but the idea of making the most purportedly difficult PvE content in the game trivial is really kind of ridiculous.

This was in regard to DoASC. I truly laughed out loud at this. There are many ways I would refer to DoASC, and trivial is not one of them. After you have done it a hundred times, maybe you can do it with ease, but it's not trivial. All of DoASC is about employing various tactics that have been planned out to clear the area's as fast as possible. This is indeed the hardest area of the game, and only a fully co-ordinated team on Vent can pull this off without hickups.

MithranArkanere · Mar 09, 2011, 01:30 PM // 13:30

What DOA needs is a way to make it less absurdly 'high-numbers' without making it even easier for SCers, so it takes the same amount of time, without becoming too easy or too difficult, and without allowing splits.