Curse

Kaleban · Mar 19, 2011, 11:00 PM // 23:00

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Originally Posted by ensoriki

Don't overexaggerate.

Whateva! I do what I want! lol

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Who asked you to? Do you say this what just to say it or are you saying it for my sake?
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=106
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=144

Couldn't be for me. Either I'm once again misunderstanding the direction of your post or your trying to jab at me.
I told you already I suggested the same thing.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=102
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=143
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=147

Then why are you now arguing against it? Or are you playing Devil's Advocate for the lulz?

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Then your needlessly looking for hostilities.

No just needlessly trying to make a point in a forum argument.

ensoriki · Mar 19, 2011, 11:02 PM // 23:02

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Originally Posted by Kaleban

Then why are you now arguing against it? Or are you playing Devil's Advocate for the lulz?
.

Heres the thing Kaleban, I'm not dismissing the idea, I'm trying to come up with alternatives or at least I was, because I had time on my hands, and felt like trying to come up with a new suggestion that may appease everyone.
The suggestion has been made multiple times so there was no harm in brainstorming something else up.

AndrewSX · Mar 19, 2011, 11:20 PM // 23:20

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Attunements are getting buffed to 1sec cast and lower recharge, seems like ANet does pay attention to this forum

Well, the original post that i linked was on 18th Feb, so don't blame me for attunements

(and...i wish Anet really pay attention about eles...).

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No, the mechanic is fine, the skills that are bad:

-Ward Against Melee isn't good like it was before, I wish they could revert it back to keep it all time for PvE, since it was a big issue on PvP
-Ward of Weariness is crap, nobody can deny that. Make it apply weakness to all foes who enter the ward, instead of elemental damage, and then it might get some use
-Ward Against Foes is fine
-Ward of Stability is fine, excellent on VQing the prophecies areas full of giants
-Ward Against Harm has always been useless, needs a complete rework. I've only seen this skill used at Catacombs of Kathandrax, otherwise, its bad.

buffing them wouldn't fix the ele PvE issue, but would help a lot for support-oriented builds

IMO wards have the same issue of traps: they are intended for defensive/long/static way of fight. You can make them as powerful/large as you wish, but till they will be "place and stay" they do not have so much appeal. Yes, some wards are really pointless(and why the only elite ward isn't in Earth line?).
This is why have them move around the caster would make them appealing, useful and playable. W/o any large change to function.

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I really fail to see where glyphs are bad. They're perfectly fine for me, every single one of them, maybe except for Glyph of Energy, wich was killed due to GoE-Gale mesmers at arenas.

You forget that we have a bunch of glyphs. And only 2-3 are useful(lesser energy, swiftness for mantain obby w/o cons, concentration....no this is useful for terra sins in sc) Elemental power is unlinked, essence/sacrifice have stupid drawbacks and, as glyph of energy, are used mostly to cast Meteor shower. Immolation have really few application(with steam, glowing gaze maybe but...nothing else).

I haven't had any good idea about glyphs so far.
Was thinking to make them a manteinance skill that give benefits and drawbacks till you cancel it. For example, GolE could be casted-> reduce energy cost of spells for a certain %(calculated on ES rank) but increasing the cooldown for the same %-> stop acting when you dismiss it. No -1 pip of ene, but something like new eternal aura, that can be dismissed as a monk mantained ench. This is just a silly first idea, but i'll keep thinking..

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Yeah, PBAoE is incredibily useless. Either they completely kill it or allow eles to cast the PBAoE spells on allies; while this would help, I can see some incredibly issues at PvP with hammer wars.

Yup, make them like Ancestor rage or change them to something else.

And, as i was trying to say, all these issues do NOT have any influence on the damage problem.
Ele's uselessness is also in all this stupid mechanics, beyond a sure damage alarm.

And please, if you're going to flame each other go somewhere else. This should be a collaborative discussion.

Boogz · Mar 20, 2011, 02:47 AM // 02:47

So, the reason behind elementalists uselessness is their whole mechanic, pretty much dervishes were. The only problem is, the mechanic, although bad, fits perfectly to their role, so I really, really don't know how they can fix this.
My only guess is that energy storage will need a total rework, even if they take out ele's huge mana pool and 25e spells and turn them into something enterily new.

melissa b · Mar 20, 2011, 03:41 AM // 03:41

I would add a new mechanic to elementalists called enraged. While enraged spell duration is sped up 2x and creates armor penetration. Some examples, while enraged casting flare would cause the projectile to moves twice as fast thus creating armor penetration....while enraged Firestorm would last 1/2 as long so five seconds but the same number of damage strikes so they would happen every 1/2 second and they would have armor penetration. Enraged could be a meter that builds up and lasts for a certain time. They could alter skills to affect enraged such as increase its duration decrease the time it takes to be enraged. Also skills could be altered to contribute to the enraged meter. How the enraged meter would fill or how much armor penetration it would provides would need testing. possibilities could be all spent energy contributes to it, whenever any party member takes damage, kill counts, etc, cast counts etc.

pingu666 · Mar 20, 2011, 02:05 PM // 14:05

anyone suggested splitting the damage? so for example a 100 damage spell gets changed to 50damage armour ignoring, 50 damage armour respecting, adjust the split as balance needs

not sure how different that is to AP, but at 60al damage would be the same, 100al the damage would go from 50 to 75

and personaly i dont want to run around needing a bunch of iwin pve skills, equaly i dont want ele enemies in hm to be buffed to boss like status

Bright Star Shine · Mar 20, 2011, 05:07 PM // 17:07

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Originally Posted by melissa b

I would add a new mechanic to elementalists called enraged. While enraged spell duration is sped up 2x and creates armor penetration. Some examples, while enraged casting flare would cause the projectile to moves twice as fast thus creating armor penetration....while enraged Firestorm would last 1/2 as long so five seconds but the same number of damage strikes so they would happen every 1/2 second and they would have armor penetration. Enraged could be a meter that builds up and lasts for a certain time. They could alter skills to affect enraged such as increase its duration decrease the time it takes to be enraged. Also skills could be altered to contribute to the enraged meter. How the enraged meter would fill or how much armor penetration it would provides would need testing. possibilities could be all spent energy contributes to it, whenever any party member takes damage, kill counts, etc, cast counts etc.

Again, adding a skill is not solving the problem, it's mitigating it. It does not make up for the fact that others still deal armor ignoring damage.

melissa b · Mar 20, 2011, 06:21 PM // 18:21

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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Again, adding a skill is not solving the problem, it's mitigating it. It does not make up for the fact that others still deal armor ignoring damage.

Mechanic change is not adding a skill just like dervishes had +10 armor while enchanted is not a new skill, it's a new mechanic. Are you saying this new mechanic wouldn't be strong enough to compete with armor-ignoring classes for a spot on a pve-pug for hard mode?

AndrewSX · Mar 20, 2011, 06:27 PM // 18:27

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Originally Posted by melissa b

Mechanic change is not adding a skill just like dervishes had +10 armor while enchanted is not a new skill, it's a new mechanic. Are you saying this new mechanic wouldn't be strong enough to compete with armor-ignoring classes for a spot on a pve-pug for hard mode?

Idk if this mechanic could grant a spot in a pve-pug, but is sure that the current mechanics don't.

melissa b · Mar 20, 2011, 06:57 PM // 18:57

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Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Idk if this mechanic could grant a spot in a pve-pug, but is sure that the current mechanics don't.

Yes it depends on how it were implemented. I specifically left open the variables so that it could be adjusted to a balanced but competitive class. Example...armor penetration of 10% might be too weak and armor penetration of 95% might be too strong. So just have testing done to bring it to a competitive and balanced level with armor-ignoring classes.

Kaleban · Mar 21, 2011, 01:43 AM // 01:43

The root cause of the problem is that Ele damage is armor-respecting, while nearly every other character has exclusively or significant amounts of armor ignoring damage.

Hence, the only way to fix it is to either make Ele skills armor ignoring (while retaining elemental "flavor"), drastically reduce the over-population of armor-ignoring damage (i.e. massive nerf to everyone else), alter mob armor to be susceptible to certain types of Elemental damage, or change Energy Storage to include some way of beating mob armor (Air spells have armor reduction so this may be an undesirable overlap).

Probably the best fix would be a modest combination of two or more of the above fixes. I would suggest:

1. Making mob armor reduced vs. themed elements, gives a bit more fantasy/roleplay flavor

2. Reduce armor ignoring damage across the board by around 20-30 percent, as this is a horrible mechanic to include in a game with armor being the main defense mechanic, and contributes massively to power creep. Armor ignoring damage SHOULD have been reserved for a few elite skills, and not slapped onto the majority of nearly every class's skill set.

3. Change energy storage to give some form of benefit relative to the percentage of energy still in the "tank" so to speak. Example: at max energy, an Ele's spells do 50% extra damage and 25% additional armor penetration, at 50% energy, 25% extra damage and 12.5% additional armor pen. Not sure if the engine is designed to handle calculations like this, but it seems to fit with the idea of using latent power to charge up the spells and as the mage gets drained the spells have less effect.

Could have an interesting synergy with e-management skills and Exhaustion, which would count as decreasing the potential max, enabling the damage/armor pen bonuses to last longer.

MithranArkanere · Mar 21, 2011, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Chaos, Holy and Dark damage should not have been armor-ignoring. And holy should not have dealt double damage to undead.

Instead, undead should have reduced armor vs holy, elementals reduced vs certains elements and/or chaos, plants vs fire and dark, dragons vs certain elements, ghosts vs chaos or lightning, nightmares vs holy, and so on.

Then the damage calculation should not have been so extreme, capping the minimum and maximum damage, so no damage can be reduced too much, and no one-hit kill can happen.

AndrewSX · Mar 21, 2011, 08:08 AM // 08:08

I'd like to remeber you that different suggestions, even if have the same aim/effect, could have HUGE differences in effort to be achieved.
Atm the most frequent suggestions are:
1-Nerf mob's armor toward one/more/all elements.
2-Nerf armor-ignoring damage.
3-Buff ele in mechanics and skill to achieve superior level of damage.

Let's see:
1-Everytime someone says "Let's give every mob a elemental weakness like destroyers againt cold." you have to think how many type of mob exist in GW. Destroyers<cold it's too easy.
You should find a reasoned weakness for all 100+ species. http://www.guildwiki.org/Category:Bestiary
It's a HUGE work. Mandragor, Tengu, Golems, Mursaat,.... give to ALL of them a plausible weakness to elements would take ages. Expecially if you think how long taken add some "simple" armor/cast and attack speed/higher level, which is our Hard Mode.
Also, the weaknesses should be applied to do not overlap them depending from species distribution. For example, dredges are found toghether with wardens, afflicted (i'm thinking to Morostav trail). But afflicted are found with humans too. And humans are everywhere. And this applies for every specie. It's nearly impossible to do not have a zone where half of mobs are weak against an element and the other half is resistant to it. No, personally i don't like this idea to fix, and it isn't likely to be used imo.

2-Same matter. What could take longer? A well done buff to 1 class or a ponderated nerf to 4+? And remember that also Rangers should have some love, after upcoming paras and smiters.

3-Imo, is the best way. But, as all above, nobody can ensure that Anet will ever decide to do another massive rework to class. Which make me think that Ranger and Eles will remain stupidly underpowered till GW2, when all the problems found in GW1 seems resolved, due to the new concept of profession and game.

Xenomortis · Mar 21, 2011, 01:05 PM // 13:05

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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Chaos, Holy and Dark damage should not have been armor-ignoring. And holy should not have dealt double damage to undead.

Chaos and Dark damage are not armour ignoring. Both are essentially typeless since nothing has specific armour boosts against them, but they are still affected by base armour.
Not all Holy damage is armour ignoring and the same applies.

Perhaps you are thinking of Shadow Damage? But this is only mentioned in some Necromancer skills.

yitjuan · Mar 21, 2011, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Would Spell Penetration help? Let's say , for each point put in the spec you would gain +1% armor penetration , something like Strength.

Tshedd31 · Mar 21, 2011, 02:29 PM // 14:29

How about instead of buffing elementalist damage which at this point honestly isn't bad I run searing flames a lot and it's hitting for ~50-106 damage on foes in HM depending on their armor.

Honestly what needs to be done if you don't want to adjust the foes in hardmode by say lowering armor totals and buffing health which would avoid a nerf or buff to any skills as they exist right now. Is a NERF to armor ignoring spells...

Because right now armor ignoring damage skills are being abused in hardmode with everyone running discord necros and control clicking their way to legendary guardian and legendary vanquisher. And in speedclears with mesmers and keystone signet.

Lets be honest theres not a whole lot of challenging areas/things left in this game, so why are we talking about a BUFF to elementalists? Do you honestly want a class that will drop 100+ damage on you with every spell it can cast?

Remember too any change/buff done to elementalist on the human side has to happen on the monster side... and the hardest bosses in this game are already ELEMENTALIST bosses.

So to finish this thread is pointless anet isn't going to buff elementalists, and i hope they don't nerf armor ignoring damage dealing spells. What they should do, if anything really at this point, is change hardmode monsters which at this point have LOWER HEALTH totals than normal mode foes and increased HealthRegen/AI/AttackRate/CastingRate, is to buff hardmode monsters health totals and decrease their armor levels which had been mentioned before me several times by other people perhaps not in this thread but on these forums.

I Am The Fear · Mar 21, 2011, 02:36 PM // 14:36

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Originally Posted by yitjuan

Would Spell Penetration help? Let's say , for each point put in the spec you would gain +1% armor penetration , something like Strength.

I think something like that would be the easiest solution.
They could move some potentially abused skills to energy storage and add armor penetration too?
I don't know. haha.

MithranArkanere · Mar 21, 2011, 02:56 PM // 14:56

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Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Chaos and Dark damage are not armour ignoring. Both are essentially typeless since nothing has specific armour boosts against them, but they are still affected by base armour.
Not all Holy damage is armour ignoring and the same applies.

Perhaps you are thinking of Shadow Damage? But this is only mentioned in some Necromancer skills.

You know what I meant. Most mesmer skills (those would be considered 'chaos' damage, since no skill deals chaos damage Avatar of Lyssa changes your physical damage to chaos, but doesn't deal it directly), holy damage skills and dark damage skill ignore armor.

And yeah. I meant 'Shadow damage', but like holy and light, they should be both renamed to just 'dark' damage too.

The idea is having no skill with specific type of damage, and no specific type of damage ignoring armor.
Physical: Slashing, Piercing, Blunt.
Elemental: Fire, Cold, Lightning, Earth.
Non-elemental: Chaos, Dark, Holy.

As for the only ways to remove health regardless of armor, there would still be 3: Life stealing, health loss, sacrifice.

And that would be a complete list of ways to lose health: 10 types of damage, and 3 types of non-damage.

Mouse at Large · Mar 21, 2011, 03:17 PM // 15:17

If you want more of a challenge from HM ele mobs, go with the ES or attune ideas.

If you want a quick and dirty solution that only affects human ele players, make Intensity alter ele spells to deal Shadow/AP/+bonus damage (and move it to ES, make it maintainable for ele primaries).

But, for goodness sake Anet, do something significant

Tshedd31 · Mar 21, 2011, 06:41 PM // 18:41

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Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

If you want a quick and dirty solution that only affects human ele players, make Intensity alter ele spells to deal Shadow/AP/+bonus damage (and move it to ES, make it maintainable for ele primaries).

... Right move a pve only skill to energy storage and have it be more op than any other skill they've ever had. that idea is about as likely to happen as anet hacking my account and giving me 7 stacks of armbraces, maxing all my titles, and giving me a new one "don't you wish you character was hot like me (1)"