Curse

Swingline · Mar 18, 2011, 12:01 AM // 00:01

I can't believe this is still an issue. Everyone who wants a sin rework seriously needs to play an ele, ranger and para before looking at the sin.

HigherMinion · Mar 18, 2011, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

I can't believe this is still an issue. Everyone who wants a sin rework seriously needs to play an ele, ranger and para before looking at the sin.

Ranger has had a rework. The only thing that needs fixing is the Pet AI.
Fix that and you're laughing.

Paragon are just long-ranged warriors with party-wide tactics. Tactics are weak=party-wide tactics are weak, see?

Elementalist skills aren't the problem, it's Hard Mode's scaling of what's considered "hard". Funny how making all foes have +1337 armour when the majority of player damage being armour ignoring makes the game much harder. Owait.

ensoriki · Mar 19, 2011, 05:25 PM // 17:25

What you did to Aura of Displacement and Shadow Meld should be reason for life imprisonment. Shadow Clones...wtf is this Naruto?

/not signed.

Kaleban · Mar 19, 2011, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

I can't believe this is still an issue. Everyone who wants a sin rework seriously needs to play an ele, ranger and para before looking at the sin.

I'm amazed people tell other to "look at the state of the game" and then spit on the idea of a Sin re-work.

Do any of you even understand how the game works? Look at the PvE meta, and the prevalence of Sin TANKS. That right there should make it glaringly obvious that its a big problem.

Perhaps if Sin TANKS weren't so easy to pull off and readily available, it would require more teamwork and bring in less used professions to high end PvE.

A Sin rework to make them more.. well Assassin like and less flying brick like, would be better for the overall health of the game, and might open up newer and better playstyles for multiple classes that are now marginalized.

I would certainly like to see the Sin re-worked to be more of a teleporting glass cannon that relies on mobility and quick reflexes to survive, and less on skills like Shadow Form or Save Yourselves! to be of a value to the party.

What ANet could do would be to take away any method of doling out AoE damage on the Sin class, since its supposed to Assassinate not wtfpwn entire zones. Then as the OP suggested make recharges less and shadowstepping more prevalent, and I think that would fix the Sin class pretty much.

Sure, people say the Sin is already powerful, but I would say its powerful in the WRONG way, as in its not doing what the class concept claims. I would prefer Sins able to wtfpwn in seconds single targets like healers and elementalists, WITHOUT being able to decimate the area around them, and relying on compressed shadowsteps to enter and exit battle.

AoE should be the province of Elementalists.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 19, 2011, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I'm amazed people tell other to "look at the state of the game" and then spit on the idea of a Sin re-work.

Do any of you even understand how the game works? Look at the PvE meta, and the prevalence of Sin TANKS. That right there should make it glaringly obvious that its a big problem.

Perhaps if Sin TANKS weren't so easy to pull off and readily available, it would require more teamwork and bring in less used professions to high end PvE.

A Sin rework to make them more.. well Assassin like and less flying brick like, would be better for the overall health of the game, and might open up newer and better playstyles for multiple classes that are now marginalized.

I would certainly like to see the Sin re-worked to be more of a teleporting glass cannon that relies on mobility and quick reflexes to survive, and less on skills like Shadow Form or Save Yourselves! to be of a value to the party.

What ANet could do would be to take away any method of doling out AoE damage on the Sin class, since its supposed to Assassinate not wtfpwn entire zones. Then as the OP suggested make recharges less and shadowstepping more prevalent, and I think that would fix the Sin class pretty much.

Sure, people say the Sin is already powerful, but I would say its powerful in the WRONG way, as in its not doing what the class concept claims. I would prefer Sins able to wtfpwn in seconds single targets like healers and elementalists, WITHOUT being able to decimate the area around them, and relying on compressed shadowsteps to enter and exit battle.

AoE should be the province of Elementalists.

Yep, and where did I make a reference to tanking? This thing isn't about making ssins better or worse tanks. This is about ssins in general PvE, you know, the guys with the daggers? And they are more than enough powerful combo's around to be viable. Still don't see use for it.

Kaleban · Mar 19, 2011, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Yep, and where did I make a reference to tanking? This thing isn't about making ssins better or worse tanks. This is about ssins in general PvE, you know, the guys with the daggers? And they are more than enough powerful combo's around to be viable. Still don't see use for it.

Just because you want to bury your head in the sand doesn't mean others do.

While its not the end all be all, the PvX meta builds are a good "health" indicator for the general state of the game.

The Sin has WoTA for one PvP build, a generic Dagger chain composed of JS-FF-DB, and then EVERY other build is a SF tank more or less.

Have you even been to DoA, UW, FoW, Deep/Urgoz, etc.? Find a Sin there who's critscythe, or uses a DA throwing dagger build, or a 5 attack skill chain, or pretty much anything not based on SF-tanking. If you do, I can guarantee they won't find a group, unless of course they go DwG, but that's not really a prof build is it?

Again, PvX isn't the end word, but its a place where a large portion of the playerbase gets its ideas as well as showing what the current meta is doing, which IS powerful, optimized and used, regardless of any elitist nay-sayers turning their noses up. Its a good litmus test, and shows how pigeonholed the Sin is, much like the Derv and Mez were prior to their updates.

ensoriki · Mar 19, 2011, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Yep, and where did I make a reference to tanking? This thing isn't about making ssins better or worse tanks. This is about ssins in general PvE, you know, the guys with the daggers? And they are more than enough powerful combo's around to be viable. Still don't see use for it.

It doesn't matter if Elementalist, Ranger Paragons, Warriors or if every other profession in the game is in dire need of an update and the Assassin isn't.
This suggestion is not about priortizing the Assassin over the Elementalist, it's plain and simple just the OP putting out his idea's of what would be in the best interest of the Assassin profession.

Agreeing or disagreeing with a suggestion should happen on the basis that the suggestion or the way it was worded are good or bad, not that someone else needs it more. If we went by that mentality then what is the point of having a suggestion forum. It would all just degrade to "No offense, no flame, but there shouldn't be a suggestion for titles,lag, account theft, new content because Elementalist aren't good in hard Mode".

To the actual suggestions themselves. If I go deeper than my first post.
OP reduced the recharge of a bunch of skills, and those skills are still sub-optimal looking at them then Jagged-Fox fangs- Death blossom.
The OP then goes further in taking away from the feel of the profession and concept by adding mechanics that have no business being there like Shadow clones from AoD and Shadow meld.
There were interesting idea's in there like Dark Prison that at the same time come off as ridiculous. Beguiling Haze being so potent we might as well delete Bronze Head arrow from the game.
Swap being able to screw up the PvE game by straight swapping out priority targets, which would also make the current Shadow Form even more powerful. Unseen Fury is crap except oh wait we have that Ebon vanguard blind attack, so it's what just giving Hammer Warriors and others substantial critical rate possibilities and doing what for the Assassin?

Outside of a few interesting idea's I would note I don't see much purpose in most of these suggestion.

How are all these dagger skills comparing to JFD? When they are not available on demand in the same way JFD is. Is the purpose then to put Moebius Strike with all of these new skills?

To be more constructive.
Spirit Walk means an Assassin can go and destroy his team mates Spirit for what purpose, an insignificant heal. Again with the AoD and Shadow Meld skills, that is not the Assassin. Assassins are not a support profession, they are not meant to support the team. The type of support they provide is setting up conditions or hexes that may synergize with what the rest of the team is doing, but they do not heal the team in addition the healing support from spirit walk is meh except if some team went and organized themself. Even on that note a ritualist can already destroy their own spirits to heal the party. It's creeping into territory they do not need to be in.

I don't know what your aiming for changing Caltrops when PvE mobs do not move much and at least Caltrops grants a condition which helps to synergize with team skills based on conditions and slow down any melee foes from chasing after your backline. Why did Hidden caltrops become Vision of Regret?

OP has changed a lot of skills that were already good and made them..wierd to say the least.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 19, 2011, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Have you even been to DoA, UW, FoW, Deep/Urgoz, etc.? Find a Sin there who's critscythe, or uses a DA throwing dagger build, or a 5 attack skill chain, or pretty much anything not based on SF-tanking. If you do, I can guarantee they won't find a group, unless of course they go DwG, but that's not really a prof build is it?.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Have you even been to DoA

This one almost made me shit my pants lol. Uhuh, I have been. A couple times. I'm not that familiar with it though. The best I could do is 24 minutes though, but that's because the Gloom team was meh-ish that run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Urgoz

Only been there a couple times, but never stayed long. Last time I was there we were there for about 8 minutes, but then we had to stop, cause he was already dead.

Also, the reason you don't see any critscythes running around, is because critscythes got nerfed. Also, last time I looked, OP meant changes to assassin, not dervishes. I seem to remember something about dervishes being buffed a while ago, it's vague though, so probably nothing..

Anyway, gotta stop the elitism.. Let's get back to the point. If the most creative you can come up with is WoTA with JS, FF and DB, you're sad and you should stop playing ssin tbh. When I play my ssin, I always take different combo's. Some might have some high recharge, but who cares? I still get everything to die.
The dagger attacks have been designed in such a way that there are all sorts of cool combo's you can do, a lot with KD's and such too.

@ Above, I know that this was just a suggestion, and I did read the OP (I had first post) but my point was, no matter how you put it, Assassins do not need a rework in PvE, except for Deadly Arts maybe. The rest is pretty ok, with the exception of some very useless skills though. But nothing compared to the other professions.

Kaleban · Mar 19, 2011, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

This one almost made me shit my pants lol. Uhuh, I have been. A couple times. I'm not that familiar with it though. The best I could do is 24 minutes though, but that's because the Gloom team was meh-ish that run.

Really? And as a Sin yourself or the Sins in the team you were on, what build did they run? And in which difficulty?

Quote:

Only been there a couple times, but never stayed long. Last time I was there we were there for about 8 minutes, but then we had to stop, cause he was already dead.

And what build did he use?

Quote:

Also, the reason you don't see any critscythes running around, is because critscythes got nerfed. Also, last time I looked, OP meant changes to assassin, not dervishes. I seem to remember something about dervishes being buffed a while ago, it's vague though, so probably nothing..

I have to believe you're joking about having no idea of the Derv update recently, because if you're not, well... that's just sort of unbelievable. Critscythe IS still viable by the way, its just not as OP as before with the reduction in crit damage on the scythe.

Quote:

Anyway, gotta stop the elitism.. Let's get back to the point. If the most creative you can come up with is WoTA with JS, FF and DB, you're sad and you should stop playing ssin tbh. When I play my ssin, I always take different combo's. Some might have some high recharge, but who cares? I still get everything to die.
The dagger attacks have been designed in such a way that there are all sorts of cool combo's you can do, a lot with KD's and such too.

Reading is your friend. I never said that's all I could come up with, in fact my post said nothing of the sort. What I said was that PvX and meta builds are a good way to gauge the health of a profession overall within the game. The more build variation that's accepted as powerful or useful, the better for the individual class. If the overall playerbase accepts that a profession only has one or two useful builds, such as Imbagon for Paras, then such a class needs to be looked at, period. And right now, apart from SF builds for Sins, there's only a small handful of accepted meta builds. Regardless of what builds you personally come up with, you are just one person, its the community at large that matters.

Quote:

Assassins do not need a rework in PvE, except for Deadly Arts maybe. The rest is pretty ok, with the exception of some very useless skills though. But nothing compared to the other professions.

That is your opinion. Assassins as they are NOW are nowhere near their original class concept of sneaky, agile hit and run guerilla types, instead banking on their ability to TANK elite end game areas.

Its the same concept as E/Mo Prot/Infuse being better than monks in some ways, but that is the Ele's only useful end game HM build. According to your logic, Eles don't need a revamp either. I would say that your logic is pretty terrible...

Bright Star Shine · Mar 19, 2011, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Really? And as a Sin yourself or the Sins in the team you were on, what build did they run? And in which difficulty?

I never tanked a 24min lol, my fastest is like 37min. Also, you totally missed my sarcasm in the first part of this post.

Quote:

And what build did he use?

I think you missed my point here, the assassin wasn't dead in 8 minutes, Urgoz was. http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1289/gw330.jpg

Quote:

I have to believe you're joking about having no idea of the Derv update recently, because if you're not, well... that's just sort of unbelievable. Critscythe IS still viable by the way, its just not as OP as before with the reduction in crit damage on the scythe.

Uhuh, and my point was that this thread has nothing to do with critscythes, so bringing them up was kind of redundant. Also, I was sarcastic.

Quote:

Reading is your friend. I never said that's all I could come up with, in fact my post said nothing of the sort. What I said was that PvX and meta builds are a good way to gauge the health of a profession overall within the game. The more build variation that's accepted as powerful or useful, the better for the individual class. If the overall playerbase accepts that a profession only has one or two useful builds, such as Imbagon for Paras, then such a class needs to be looked at, period. And right now, apart from SF builds for Sins, there's only a small handful of accepted meta builds. Regardless of what builds you personally come up with, you are just one person, its the community at large that matters.

The fact that you are using PvX to make/compare your builds is kind of sad, because PvX is in NO WAY a way to depict a profession and it's competence. If you can't make the builds yourself, you're playing the game wrong.

Quote:

That is your opinion. Assassins as they are NOW are nowhere near their original class concept of sneaky, agile hit and run guerilla types, instead banking on their ability to TANK elite end game areas.

That is not my opinion, that is my observation. If I hit 80-90 with dagger skills in HM PvE, I think my assassin is still pretty strong.

Quote:

Its the same concept as E/Mo Prot/Infuse being better than monks in some ways, but that is the Ele's only useful end game HM build. According to your logic, Eles don't need a revamp either. I would say that your logic is pretty terrible...

Where did I say Eles don't need a revamp? They need, and quickly! They suck ass and need to be completely reworked.

ensoriki · Mar 19, 2011, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

The fact that you are using PvX to make/compare your builds is kind of sad, because PvX is in NO WAY a way to depict a profession and it's competence. If you can't make the builds yourself, you're playing the game wrong.

False.
Moving on, PvX still isn't a good way to measure the health of the profession.
JFD isn't the only build in PvX because it's the only dagger build that works in General PvE it's there because they don't feel like including any other dagger builds. Plenty of builds work "great" or "good" in PvE.

Kaleban · Mar 19, 2011, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I think you missed my point here, the assassin wasn't dead in 8 minutes, Urgoz was. http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1289/gw330.jpg

Okay, you're totally missing what I'm getting at here. What build do you suppose the two Sins in your pic were running? Critscythe? MS+DB? CritBarrage? DA Thrower? Or are they in fact dual tanking with SF?

Quote:

The fact that you are using PvX to make/compare your builds is kind of sad, because PvX is in NO WAY a way to depict a profession and it's competence. If you can't make the builds yourself, you're playing the game wrong.

Again, you're missing the point. PvX may not be the repository of the secret uber builds, but its a site with aggregated build info that has been vetted by MANY MANY people and they work well. And the point is that PvX acts as a gauge of a professions build variety, and consequently how well it is designed and whether it fulfills a even and balanced role in the game. Which is why the Paragon needs a revamp pretty badly, as does the Ele in PvE at least.

Think of it as national polling data. Not every family has 2.3 kids (having 0.3 of a child isn't even physically possible) but its a good indication of the average.

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That is not my opinion, that is my observation. If I hit 80-90 with dagger skills in HM PvE, I think my assassin is still pretty strong.

Any Sin can do that with auto-attacks and enough buffs. In fact most melee classes can do that easily, my Derv and War can too. Does that mean that the Sin and War/Derv have the exact same build variety? No of course not, which is the whole point of the thread.

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Where did I say Eles don't need a revamp? They need, and quickly! They suck ass and need to be completely reworked.

Because they have one build that is generally over-used to the exclusion of all others. As does the Assassin, although being melee is still more capable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

The fact that you are using PvX to make/compare your builds is kind of sad, because PvX is in NO WAY a way to depict a profession and it's competence. If you can't make the builds yourself, you're playing the game wrong.

Btw, I found your build in your quick uber Urgoz run:

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_Urgoz_Caster_Spike

ensoriki · Mar 19, 2011, 08:06 PM // 20:06

This is silly at the end of the day Assassins do not efficiently play as they are described but instead efficiently play as linear warriors that spit out aoe.
To use Brights logic in that case my Elementalist may not deal 80-90 damage per hit, but they protect anyone in the party for practically no energy. I think my Elementalist is pretty strong.

If your profession isn't playing as it "should" be playing you can voice your opinion, hell even if it isn't people don't die from suggesting anything.

Also seriously, PvX is not a good way to measure a class.
Assassins have other chains that work in PvE efficiently, but they are not listed because JFD is just in general better.
Golden Fox Strike, Wild Strike, Ninetails strike works fine too as an unblockable combo, but it's not going to be listed on PvX in general PvE.
Flourish and Assassin's Promise, Assassins work fine in PvE as well, but they are nowhere to be listed in PvE...actually I think the Flourish sin is in the PvP section or archived for being a pvp build.

Bottom line PvX is not a good standard as a build doesn't need to be bad to not be on PvX it just doesn't need to be voted on and if the whole community loves JFD, you may see no variety just because the community doesn't want anything else represented.

Kaleban · Mar 19, 2011, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Also seriously, PvX is not a good way to measure a class.
Assassins have other chains that work in PvE efficiently, but they are not listed because JFD is just in general better.

That's an extremely contradictory pair of statements.

I never said (man I get tired of typing that) PvX was a good way to measure a class's ability or efficiency.

What I've been typing is that PvX's compilation is a good way to measure the community and playerbase's accepted notion of a profession's overall usefulness. As in statistical averages.

Take Paras as an example. Other than Imbagon on the PvE side, there's nothing "meta." Now of course there are a multitude of builds, but none as effective or efficient. You can play a Mending Wammo too, but that doesn't mean its good.

If Paras were to get a skill re-work such that they had seven or eight "meta" builds, not just Imbagon then necessarily that would mean the class was "healthier" than before.

Its the same concept with Assassins. They have a couple "meta" builds, that are focused around TANKing or one type of Dagger build. With a re-work, you could see an enlargement of the meta to include DA and shadow-stepping.

And PvX IS a good metric to use, since ANet periodically adjusts skills from time to time, the meta is a good indication of what their changes accomplish.

To disavow or ignore these facts is simply turning your nose up at a wonderful tool that PvX represents, not to mention that 95% of the PvE game is in fact dominated by PvX meta builds, regardless of what Guru elitists wish to believe.

ensoriki · Mar 19, 2011, 08:29 PM // 20:29

What was contradictory.
PvX is not showing you all the viable assassin builds, it is showing you one build that it feels is the most viable in "General". It's decided that JFD is so good, other things are not worth mention but that does not mean those other skills are not viable in PvE and that other skills do not have niches that they fill.

If you honestly think all builds are equal your off your rocker and for the Assassin in PvE they have decided that they prefer JFD to all else and as such have ommitted anything else.

To put an anology. If you come first place out of 1000 in a race you are great, if you come in second and third you are good, but PvX has ommited second and third place.
So that doesn't show the quality of the race/profession it just shows what comes in first for being general.

On that same note I could take off all but 1 build from every profession and say "In most general situations this will do best" and it's the same thing.

If I take of Psychic Instability bars from Mesmers and just leave Panic, are you going to think "well Mesmers can only use panic" if you do, your missing something. Panic has better use in general than Psychic Instability in PvE though.

PvX isn't a good way to measure the health of something it may support a claim but it does not prove a claim.
Now if you can prove that Assassins have a limited option through I dunno more... thorough discussion and then use PvX to support your claim well then how can i disagree. Just saying "Look they only have 1 meta build" is ridiculous however.

Kaleban · Mar 19, 2011, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

sigh

Profession 1: 5 Meta builds
-Subset 1: 15 Great builds

Profession 2: 1 Meta build
-Subset 2: 8 Great builds

Now out of those two professions which is more varied and useable in more situations?

I KNOW how PvX works. What you don't seem to understand is statistical averages.

ensoriki · Mar 19, 2011, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Profession 1: 5 Meta builds
-Subset 1: 15 Great builds

Profession 2: 1 Meta build
-Subset 2: 8 Great builds

Now out of those two professions which is more varied and useable in more situations?

I KNOW how PvX works. What you don't seem to understand is statistical averages.

The first profession has multiple builds, that does not mean that profession is usable in more situations at all.
If I have 1 build that makes me perform my role perfectly I don't need 15 great builds, period. If that one build of mine has say 3 optional slots, and I just change 3 out of 5 skills depending on the situation, why do I need 15 great or Meta builds? I don't.
Your number of builds shows that your class has a number of builds. If your think that every class should have 2 meta builds, 10 great, builds and 12 good builds, and any class that has less then that is not healthy, your pretending everyone has the same role in Guild Wars, which would not be true. I'd go even further that you'd be suggesting we all have the same amount of skills to make builds out of to begin with, also ignoring duplicate skills and the like, and the whole nature of PvX's optional slots.

If a profession is performing it's role efficiently, they do not need 10 different builds at all.

Kaleban · Mar 19, 2011, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

If a profession is performing it's role efficiently, they do not need 10 different builds at all.

Are you telling me that because the Imbagon build performs damage reduction so well, that there is no need for any other build or playstyle?

Or that E/Mo Protters are so good at protection that they should be happy to have a role and not get a skill update?

Have you missed completely the Mesmer update making them damage viable in PvE (extremely so) or the Derv update making them competitive again?

Again, you've missed the point of PvXwiki and the argument in general.

Would you be happy with a Warrior Meta where WE Axe was the only good build, and all other weapons sucked?

Would you prefer Monks to suck at healing, but be able to tank n spank as 55s everywhere?

The point is, AGAIN, that the fewer meta or accepted power builds a profession has, the worse off the profession is. ESPECIALLY as you mentioned above if the profession's one awesome build isn't even what it was intended for in the first place, such as E/Mo Protting or SF Tanking.

ensoriki · Mar 19, 2011, 09:39 PM // 21:39

You didn't understand what I said.
I said if a profession performs ITS role. As in the described role of their concept.
Not an elementalist playing E/Mo.

Kaleban · Mar 19, 2011, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

You didn't understand what I said.
I said if a profession performs ITS role. As in the described role of their concept.
Not an elementalist playing E/Mo.

I'm pretty sure that if we adhered to your logic, then ANet and the playerbase as you claim would be happy if every primary profession just had one attribute out of Tank, DPS, Nuke, Heal and Prot.

Because as you say, if a class is performing its role, why is there a need for any variation? I'm sure that having 10 professions when 5 would be enough, or hundreds of skills that aren't all equivalent is just fluff and not meant to enable differentiated gameplay.

Nah, couldn't be.